Spaceless? Timeless?

[The Sum of Awe]

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

I'm not sure how anything is logically capable of existing in such a state. Of course you're going to tell me it's just incomprehensible to human thought, and we don't have to understand God's nature for God to exist. But I think it's more than that. It's not because my mind is limited as a mortal human being, I'm saying it's logically impossible in general. It is the same kind of logical fallacy as someone saying something can both fully exist and fully not exist simultaneously.

For one thing, nothing could be done without space and time. No events can happen without time, and no presence can happen without space. All you are doing when you say God existed before the universe, is just saying the big bang isn't t=0, it is saying spacetime existed before the universe. But that defeats the meaning of universe. The universe and spacetime are synonymous.

But I do think it's more reasonable to think of it this way: God came into existed as the same very moment of the big bang (plank time). At t=0.000000___1, God existed and came into being at the same moment the universe did. Don't worry, it doesn't mean God can't be the creator. Perhaps he caused it after it happened, makes sense for an omnipotent God. And not to mention, since we are talking about the beginning of spacetime it's likely that time could've been distorted and out of order and perhaps even say God put it in order. In fact, even though God is a product of spacetime, that doesn't mean he is bound to it. Experiencing all time at once. The reason I'm not a fan of the last one is because time is relative but there could be a way around that. to make it work.

Lastly, let's put all that aside. IF he could exist before spacetime, and still somehow experience things in order, wouldn't this imply God existed for an eternity before the universe? If so, how could it be an eternity because the fact spacetime happened means that state of spacetime-less ended. But eternity has no end.

Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

 

[Skwim]

What makes you think that nothing existed before our universe came into being? Our universe could simply be one of many that's appeared in a long line of appearing/disappearing universes. And, it may not be the only one currently existing.

 

[Bunyip]

I think it rather neatly avoids any kind of burden of proof, or for that matter any kind of empirical evidence whatsoever by essentially defining God with the same qualities as the non-existent. Immaterial, timeless and external to the universe is a good working definition of non-existent.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If I understand you correctly. Maybe space and time are not created. They exist eternally and on its own accord. So, God cannot work outside of space and time since that is the laws of nature. He can't come before space and time. Everything is held within it. God just gave it a name (and he called the light day), that's all.

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

I'm not sure how anything is logically capable of existing in such a state. Of course you're going to tell me it's just incomprehensible to human thought, and we don't have to understand God's nature for God to exist. But I think it's more than that. It's not because my mind is limited as a mortal human being, I'm saying it's logically impossible in general. It is the same kind of logical fallacy as someone saying something can both fully exist and fully not exist simultaneously.

For one thing, nothing could be done without space and time. No events can happen without time, and no presence can happen without space. All you are doing when you say God existed before the universe, is just saying the big bang isn't t=0, it is saying spacetime existed before the universe. But that defeats the meaning of universe. The universe and spacetime are synonymous.

But I do think it's more reasonable to think of it this way: God came into existed as the same very moment of the big bang (plank time). At t=0.000000___1, God existed and came into being at the same moment the universe did. Don't worry, it doesn't mean God can't be the creator. Perhaps he caused it after it happened, makes sense for an omnipotent God. And not to mention, since we are talking about the beginning of spacetime it's likely that time could've been distorted and out of order and perhaps even say God put it in order. In fact, even though God is a product of spacetime, that doesn't mean he is bound to it. Experiencing all time at once. The reason I'm not a fan of the last one is because time is relative but there could be a way around that. to make it work.

Lastly, let's put all that aside. IF he could exist before spacetime, and still somehow experience things in order, wouldn't this imply God existed for an eternity before the universe? If so, how could it be an eternity because the fact spacetime happened means that state of spacetime-less ended. But eternity has no end.

Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

 

[idav]

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

I'm not sure how anything is logically capable of existing in such a state. Of course you're going to tell me it's just incomprehensible to human thought, and we don't have to understand God's nature for God to exist. But I think it's more than that. It's not because my mind is limited as a mortal human being, I'm saying it's logically impossible in general. It is the same kind of logical fallacy as someone saying something can both fully exist and fully not exist simultaneously.

For one thing, nothing could be done without space and time. No events can happen without time, and no presence can happen without space. All you are doing when you say God existed before the universe, is just saying the big bang isn't t=0, it is saying spacetime existed before the universe. But that defeats the meaning of universe. The universe and spacetime are synonymous.

But I do think it's more reasonable to think of it this way: God came into existed as the same very moment of the big bang (plank time). At t=0.000000___1, God existed and came into being at the same moment the universe did. Don't worry, it doesn't mean God can't be the creator. Perhaps he caused it after it happened, makes sense for an omnipotent God. And not to mention, since we are talking about the beginning of spacetime it's likely that time could've been distorted and out of order and perhaps even say God put it in order. In fact, even though God is a product of spacetime, that doesn't mean he is bound to it. Experiencing all time at once. The reason I'm not a fan of the last one is because time is relative but there could be a way around that. to make it work.

Lastly, let's put all that aside. IF he could exist before spacetime, and still somehow experience things in order, wouldn't this imply God existed for an eternity before the universe? If so, how could it be an eternity because the fact spacetime happened means that state of spacetime-less ended. But eternity has no end.

Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

I hear what your are saying. I for one, speculate that we are not 0 = 0 but that all of existence is +1, whatever that might be.
I can't fathom a nihilistic universe, it would have to be nothing or we wouldn't be having this conversation, therefore plus one makes most sense.

 

[Unibeauty]

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

I'm not sure how anything is logically capable of existing in such a state. Of course you're going to tell me it's just incomprehensible to human thought, and we don't have to understand God's nature for God to exist. But I think it's more than that. It's not because my mind is limited as a mortal human being, I'm saying it's logically impossible in general. It is the same kind of logical fallacy as someone saying something can both fully exist and fully not exist simultaneously.

For one thing, nothing could be done without space and time. No events can happen without time, and no presence can happen without space. All you are doing when you say God existed before the universe, is just saying the big bang isn't t=0, it is saying spacetime existed before the universe. But that defeats the meaning of universe. The universe and spacetime are synonymous.

But I do think it's more reasonable to think of it this way: God came into existed as the same very moment of the big bang (plank time). At t=0.000000___1, God existed and came into being at the same moment the universe did. Don't worry, it doesn't mean God can't be the creator. Perhaps he caused it after it happened, makes sense for an omnipotent God. And not to mention, since we are talking about the beginning of spacetime it's likely that time could've been distorted and out of order and perhaps even say God put it in order. In fact, even though God is a product of spacetime, that doesn't mean he is bound to it. Experiencing all time at once. The reason I'm not a fan of the last one is because time is relative but there could be a way around that. to make it work.

Lastly, let's put all that aside. IF he could exist before spacetime, and still somehow experience things in order, wouldn't this imply God existed for an eternity before the universe? If so, how could it be an eternity because the fact spacetime happened means that state of spacetime-less ended. But eternity has no end.

Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

So many good thoughts and questions. I think your brain needs a break. Why ask so many questions? If you have the Inteligence others don't, be proud and you do. I love it and I just read your post.

 

[JRMcC]

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

I'm not sure how anything is logically capable of existing in such a state. Of course you're going to tell me it's just incomprehensible to human thought, and we don't have to understand God's nature for God to exist. But I think it's more than that. It's not because my mind is limited as a mortal human being, I'm saying it's logically impossible in general. It is the same kind of logical fallacy as someone saying something can both fully exist and fully not exist simultaneously.

For one thing, nothing could be done without space and time. No events can happen without time, and no presence can happen without space. All you are doing when you say God existed before the universe, is just saying the big bang isn't t=0, it is saying spacetime existed before the universe. But that defeats the meaning of universe. The universe and spacetime are synonymous.

Well, this is why I call myself a transtheist. Even though I don't identify with the theists that say God is the universe's first cause, I would still say that you're ruling out the "existence" of realities that we can't comprehend. It's possible that we're unable to picture a reality that doesn't involve space or time just like we can't picture a color other than the ones we already know.

 

[Unibeauty]

Well, this is why I call myself a transtheist. Even though I don't identify with the theists that say God is the universe's first cause, I would still say that you're ruling out the "existence" of realities that we can't comprehend. It's possible that we're unable to picture a reality that doesn't involve space or time just like we can't picture a color other than the ones we already know.

 

[Unibeauty]

I loves colors, don't really care how it is intrepreted. Thank you for talking to me!

 

[Unibeauty]

Hi, I live in reality daily. Am trying to see the beauty within. You know what I hate to be not able to walk outside and hear the birds. I hate to not talk to the people we love. I hate the world to suffer. I want love and peace in everyone's lives on this planet.

 

[DawudTalut]

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

Peace be on you.
It is as to say, The Sum of Awe exited and exists before creating this post. The Sum of Awe has many capabilities, but the post does not.

...Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

He is Creator since ever, no one knows how many times universes were made and ended and it continue after the end of this universe too.

 

[`mud]

Once again:
It's all in the absence of presence.
And before that,
an entity can't exist before nothingness.
There can't be any gods before any creation.
Believing in the Big Bang is absolute foolishness,
as well as the belief in any pre-BB existence.
Mixed metaphors indeed, total nonsense !
~
But to Sum, clever thinking...as almost always.
~
'mud

 

[idav]

I think it rather neatly avoids any kind of burden of proof, or for that matter any kind of empirical evidence whatsoever by essentially defining God with the same qualities as the non-existent. Immaterial, timeless and external to the universe is a good working definition of non-existent.

Timeless is what matter heads toward given enough energy according to Einstein's equations, and the equations know there is a break down, it isn't intended to account for actually warping time to zero nor reversal of time. We don't even know enough to say if any of its possible, given enough mass or speed.

 

[idav]

So many good thoughts and questions. I think your brain needs a break. Why ask so many questions? If you have the Inteligence others don't, be proud and you do. I love it and I just read your post.

Does time equal zero exist and if so isn't that a timeless deity?

 

[Bunyip]

Timeless is what matter heads toward given enough energy according to Einstein's equations, and the equations know there is a break down, it isn't intended to account for actually warping time to zero nor reversal of time. We don't even know enough to say if any of its possible, given enough mass or speed.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

 

[Salvador]

How much time elapses for a person depends on how they travel through space (especially near the speed of light) as well as the gravitational field. All slices of time (past, present, future) do happen simultaneously. Time and space are unified together as time-space. The difference between past, present and future is an illusion. Because motion effects the passage of time, two individual persons not moving in relation to one another will experience time at the same rate and they will experience the same slice of time simultaneously; and consequently, both people will exist together at the present time. If one of these two persons now moves away from the other, they will no longer experience time at the same rate and they will now each exist in a different slice of time. The differences in time between these two people will now depend on the speed of motion, direction of motion and the distances between these two people. The person in motion away from the other person at rest will now exist in a past slice of time relative to the person at rest. If the person in motion were to now turn around and move towards the person at rest, then he will now exist in a future slice of time relative to the motionless person. All of time with all of space does now exist.

 

[Unibeauty]

Does time equal zero exist and if so isn't that a timeless deity?

Does life continue without a question, yes. Do people exist without a question, yes. Is there a person watching over us and judging it is possible. Just like aliens. Time equals, how you spend it. You can waste your time if you would like. I on the other hand live it. Exist in it, good, bad and ugly. And in my existence I rarely see beautiful. So I'm searching for it within and among the people who are.

How much time elapses for a person depends on how they travel through space (especially near the speed of light) as well as the gravitational field. All slices of time (past, present, future) do happen simultaneously. Time and space are unified together as time-space. The difference between past, present and future is an illusion. Because motion effects the passage of time, two individual persons not moving in relation to one another will experience time at the same rate and they will experience the same slice of time simultaneously; and consequently, both people will exist together at the present time. If one of these two persons now moves away from the other, they will no longer experience time at the same rate and they will now each exist in a different slice of time. The differences in time between these two people will now depend on the speed of motion, direction of motion and the distances between these two people. The person in motion away from the other person at rest will now exist in a past slice of time relative to the person at rest. If the person in motion were to now turn around and move towards the person at rest, then he will now exist in a future slice of time relative to the motionless person. All of time with all of space does now exist.

is anyone really at rest? We constantly flow like a stream. Always changing, always finding which path to choose. Or what is acceptable. I say make your own. Don't always play by the rules but don't break the true ones or the ones about hurting others. We all have to deal with pain, loss and constant struggles. Love or at least try to like people cause you never know.

 

[Deidre]

Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

I don't know if it would take a god an eternity to create the universe, as much as if a god exists...HE IS eternal.

 

[Shad]

What do people mean when they say God existed before the universe, or is beyond spacetime, or anything like that?

Due to the presupposition taught within religions before physics is even a word taught to people. God(s) must always be before everything so god(s) is placed there. Definition are added in an ad hoc manner in order to maintain the presupposition.

I'm not sure how anything is logically capable of existing in such a state. Of course you're going to tell me it's just incomprehensible to human thought, and we don't have to understand God's nature for God to exist. But I think it's more than that. It's not because my mind is limited as a mortal human being, I'm saying it's logically impossible in general. It is the same kind of logical fallacy as someone saying something can both fully exist and fully not exist simultaneously.

It is not logical hence it is incoherent. However this does not stop others for teaching people that do not understand the concepts used to support these ideas nor have the education to do so.

For one thing, nothing could be done without space and time. No events can happen without time, and no presence can happen without space. All you are doing when you say God existed before the universe, is just saying the big bang isn't t=0, it is saying spacetime existed before the universe. But that defeats the meaning of universe. The universe and spacetime are synonymous.

Bingo. Hence why it is incoherent to have god(s) as creators of something as part of an argument which requires these very concepts in order to "create" anything"

But I do think it's more reasonable to think of it this way: God came into existed as the same very moment of the big bang (plank time). At t=0.000000___1, God existed and came into being at the same moment the universe did. Don't worry, it doesn't mean God can't be the creator. Perhaps he caused it after it happened, makes sense for an omnipotent God. And not to mention, since we are talking about the beginning of spacetime it's likely that time could've been distorted and out of order and perhaps even say God put it in order. In fact, even though God is a product of spacetime, that doesn't mean he is bound to it. Experiencing all time at once. The reason I'm not a fan of the last one is because time is relative but there could be a way around that. to make it work.

This also means that the universe could have created god. With no location or time reference points one can not determine the cause nor the effect. You are in the middle of an exercise in mental gymnastics in order to regain attributes of god while still using logic and physic systems. Even if time is out of order there is still time. Merely reversing it by assumptions does nothing to help recover an incoherent argument. One could also use this concept of reverse time to claim the universe created god(s) If god(s) are capable of anything then any logic system we have is useless as a tool. All you are doing is repeating the incoherent examples provided in your opening views using different words. The result is the same incoherent argument.

Lastly, let's put all that aside. IF he could exist before spacetime, and still somehow experience things in order, wouldn't this imply God existed for an eternity before the universe? If so, how could it be an eternity because the fact spacetime happened means that state of spacetime-less ended. But eternity has no end.

Incoherent gymnastics again. There is no before time, there is no after time. Both are time references. Eternity is a time reference. You refuted this argument within your own comment.

Why did it take him an eternity to finally decide to create the universe?

Again you refuted this in your own comment.

 

[suncowiam]

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

There are two factors concerning the passing time, your speed in reference to another and mass. The faster you travel, the less time passes. The nearer you are to heavier mass, the less time passes.

Light particles known as photons travel at the speed of light and have no mass. They do not experience time.