Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Kenny]

that was a parable

In all the parables they never had a first name of a person and Abraham certainly is not a parable. But I can understand why you would have to make it a parable because otherwise, it wouldn't fit your theology.

And the martyrs weren't parables either and yet they are found worshipping God when they should be, in your theology, asleep and dead.

When Jesus was at the mount, Elijah and Moses weren't dead either.

So, if we look at the multiplicity of examples (for there are more), your position just doesn't hold up.

 

[cataway]

In all the parables they never had a first name of a person and Abraham certainly is not a parable. But I can understand why you would have to make it a parable because otherwise, it wouldn't fit your theology.

And the martyrs weren't parables either and yet they are found worshipping God when they should be, in your theology, asleep and dead.

When Jesus was at the mount, Elijah and Moses weren't dead either.

So, if we look at the multiplicity of examples (for there are more), your position just doesn't hold up.

a parable it was .
as for Elijah and Moses ,it was a vision . how do we know ? because no one went to heaven before Jesus returned there.

as for theology you don't appear to know the things the JW's know. we are however willing to spend years* studying with you if you really want to know all things about the kingdom.

 

[moorea944]

Hardly.

Jesus mentioned that the beggar Lazarus is quite alive. In the book of Revelation, it speaks of those who died a martyrs death that are quite alive worshipping waiting for the time of the coming of Jesus.

So... no, the body is dead but the spirit and soul are quite alive.

No, not at all. Revelation is mostly symbollic. "Soul" in Hebrew is just someone who is alive. A living, breathing frame, or person. It can also be written differently too, like mind, feelings, thoughts, esp, in the NT. In Acts 2, some of the people believed in spirits and afterdeaths too, But Peter sets them straight. He gives an example of David. He didnt go to heaven, he is still dead in the grave.

People are afraid of death. They want to believe that in death, life goes on... Scripture knows nothing of that at all. When we are dead, we return to dust. NEVER in scripture are we "given" something extra like a soul. We need to really be careful on what certain words mean, esp, in another language.
"In death, you cannot praise God". Are you saying that we can?
'The living know that they will die, the dead know nothing". Big difference, eh?

 

[moorea944]

In all the parables they never had a first name of a person and Abraham certainly is not a parable. But I can understand why you would have to make it a parable because otherwise, it wouldn't fit your theology.

And the martyrs weren't parables either and yet they are found worshipping God when they should be, in your theology, asleep and dead.

When Jesus was at the mount, Elijah and Moses weren't dead either.

So, if we look at the multiplicity of examples (for there are more), your position just doesn't hold up.

They were dead. It was a vision for a special purpose.

 

[moorea944]

The bible presents a radically different picture than mainstream Christianity and this, remember, is a message from God when He says,

"The living know that they will die, the dead know nothing" (Eccl 9v5)

"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in the grave who will give you thanks?" (Psa 6v5)

"The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" (Psa 115v17)

"For Sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you, those who do down to the pit cannot hope for your truth" (Isa 38v18)

Luke 13 tells us that we should repent or perish. Notice the alternatives, either repent or perish. We are born to live some years on earth and then perish - to cease completely from any form of existence and to be forgotten. This is not what God wants to happen, because He loves His creation and wants the best for us.

2 Peter 3 tells us that God doesnt want anyone to die. Unfortunately, some people still think when we die, we still live. Doesnt really make sense.

God has done all that He can, but the death of Jesus does not "automatically" save us. We have to "respond" and turn away from our ways. Not everyone will be saved and not everyone wll be raised.

Jesus was raised from the dead and resurrection at the coming of Jesus is the hope of all his true followers, so there can be life - eternal life. For the gift of God is eternal life. A gift that we will only get when His son returns.

 

[JM2C]

Our first problem is with our understanding of the word "god" (theos) in Greek. This is a title NOT exclusive to the Father. It simply means a "mighty one" or "powerful one". You begin with a false premise and then build your case on it. It doesn't hold water from the outset.

False premise?

1st clause “In the beginning was the Word” is the major premise that John, the writer, believes to be true. What is the truth in the 1st clause? The word “was/en” is in imperfect tense means a continuous or indefinite action occurring in the past, or “the Word/ho Logos” was existing indefinitely already before the beginning. IOW, we cannot know when “the Word/ho Logos” started or had begun existing so we cannot assume that “the Word” had a beginning or was just a creation of God the Father.

2nd clause “And the Word was with God” is the minor premise that John, the writer, gave as evidence to support his claim in the 1st clause that “the Word/ho Logos” really existed from eternity, and that is, He, “the Word/ho Logos was with ho Theos” as verse 18 also have suggested “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”. IOW, they [God/Father and God/Son] were in existence already before the beginning. This is what we know according to these 2 premises that John, the writer, believes to be true. According to this premises only “the Word” and “the God” were in existence before the beginning. There was no mention of any creation before the beginning.

and the 3rd clause “And the Word was God” is the conclusion base on his premises in clauses 1 and 2 for the simple reason that nothing existed that was mentioned before the beginning, that we human have a knowledge of, but “the Word” and “the Word was with God” and therefore, “the Word was God”. The Word cannot be less than God if there was nothing in eternity but God and the Son of God.

This is the reason why you cannot conclude, base on clauses 1 and 2, that the Word was an “a god”

“a god” implies that more than one god or gods were in existence before the beginning and this would contracting John’s major and minor premises, i.e., the 1st clause “In the beginning was the Word” and the 2nd clause “and the Word was with God” because here we have only two personal beings in existence before the beginning that we can clearly read and should be able to understand if we believe that what John wrote was the truth.

 

[JM2C]

When a sentence in Greek has both "theos" and "ho theos" it is differentiating between two "mighty ones".

and that’s exactly what the 2nd clause did, “and the Word was with God” otherwise IF the 3rd clause or the conclusion would read like this, “and the Word was the God” then this would contradict the 2nd clause.

This is what Deuteronomy 6:4 was actually saying. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Jehovah our Elohim is one/echad-SH259 Jehovah"

The word “Elohim” being plural shows that God, i.e., [God/Father, God/Son, God/Holy Spirit] is the LORD, is more than one, yet is "ONE/ECHAD-SH259 United Jehovah/LORD". Hence, we have the Trinity.

Echad-SH259: a united ONE, and not Yachid-SH3173: an only one.

As a Trinitarian I did not start with the knowledge of the Trinity. It was God who gave me this knowledge. I did not join a cult, like yours, where there is a pattern or systematic theology that one must follow. Instead of following a formal creedal statement of a theological system, like yours, the scriptures itself gave it to us/Trinitarians in fragments, not in formulated definitions, but in fragmentary allusions, and from there we harmonized the scriptures into an organic unity and only then we can know its true meaning. How can you grasp something that surpasses knowledge or beyond comprehension and be filled with it at the same time?

The things to be revealed by GOD are "unsearchable" because they are beyond the grasp of human knowledge.

JER 33:3 ‘ Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

 

[moorea944]

False premise?

1st clause “In the beginning was the Word” is the major premise that John, the writer, believes to be true. What is the truth in the 1st clause? The word “was/en” is in imperfect tense means a continuous or indefinite action occurring in the past, or “the Word/ho Logos” was existing indefinitely already before the beginning. IOW, we cannot know when “the Word/ho Logos” started or had begun existing so we cannot assume that “the Word” had a beginning or was just a creation of God the Father.

2nd clause “And the Word was with God” is the minor premise that John, the writer, gave as evidence to support his claim in the 1st clause that “the Word/ho Logos” really existed from eternity, and that is, He, “the Word/ho Logos was with ho Theos” as verse 18 also have suggested “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”. IOW, they [God/Father and God/Son] were in existence already before the beginning. This is what we know according to these 2 premises that John, the writer, believes to be true. According to this premises only “the Word” and “the God” were in existence before the beginning. There was no mention of any creation before the beginning.

and the 3rd clause “And the Word was God” is the conclusion base on his premises in clauses 1 and 2 for the simple reason that nothing existed that was mentioned before the beginning, that we human have a knowledge of, but “the Word” and “the Word was with God” and therefore, “the Word was God”. The Word cannot be less than God if there was nothing in eternity but God and the Son of God.

This is the reason why you cannot conclude, base on clauses 1 and 2, that the Word was an “a god”

“a god” implies that more than one god or gods were in existence before the beginning and this would contracting John’s major and minor premises, i.e., the 1st clause “In the beginning was the Word” and the 2nd clause “and the Word was with God” because here we have only two personal beings in existence before the beginning that we can clearly read and should be able to understand if we believe that what John wrote was the truth.

I think the problem here is that your making the "word" an extra actual person. You shouldnt. It is talking about God's word. His plans, His reasons, His thoughts, His spoken Word. Dont make that a person. The logos was with God, it was God. Of course it was, that was His Word.

Then..... in verse 14, Jesus comes into play. God's Word has now become flesh. Jesus was also God's only begotten son. No pre-existance here. Only of course... if you make it....

 

[cataway]

what I find really ironic , even if you are correct it still does not prove the Trinity

 

[Kenny]

a parable it was .
as for Elijah and Moses ,it was a vision . how do we know ? because no one went to heaven before Jesus returned there.

as for theology you don't appear to know the things the JW's know. we are however willing to spend years* studying with you if you really want to know all things about the kingdom.

a parable it was .
as for Elijah and Moses ,it was a vision . how do we know ? because no one went to heaven before Jesus returned there.

as for theology you don't appear to know the things the JW's know. we are however willing to spend years* studying with you if you really want to know all things about the kingdom.

Appreciate the offer, but I'm already spending the years.

As I mentioned before, there is no parable that mentions specific names and almost always, if not always, it is mentioned that a parable is a parable. No other parable has the specifics of Abraham and Lazarus. I trust it was a real account.

You position was that it was a vision. However, as they were talking, I wouldn't agree. The fact that there was a Paradise (a holding place before the sacrifice of Jesus) means that they weren't dead. As Jesus said, God is the God of the living and not of the dead. God didn't say "I WAS the God of Abraham" but rather "I am the God of Abraham".

Additionally, we have very specifically of people being alive before the resurrection...

Rev 6
9And when the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their witness.
10 They called loudly to the Lord and said, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge the people who belong to this world for what they have done to us? When will you avenge our blood against these people?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters -- their fellow servants of Jesus -- had been martyred.

You don't clothe dead people or people who are asleep don't talk.

Again, because of the multiplicity of Biblical examples, I wouldn't agree...

BUT

I am not dogmatic about it. Whether we agree in this subject or don't agree... it isn't a deal breaker IMV.

As long as we preach the Gospel and love people, that is the main emphasis.

 

[Kenny]

They were dead. It was a vision for a special purpose.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Kenny]

The bible presents a radically different picture than mainstream Christianity and this, remember, is a message from God when He says,

"The living know that they will die, the dead know nothing" (Eccl 9v5)

"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in the grave who will give you thanks?" (Psa 6v5)

"The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" (Psa 115v17)

"For Sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you, those who do down to the pit cannot hope for your truth" (Isa 38v18)

Luke 13 tells us that we should repent or perish. Notice the alternatives, either repent or perish. We are born to live some years on earth and then perish - to cease completely from any form of existence and to be forgotten. This is not what God wants to happen, because He loves His creation and wants the best for us.

2 Peter 3 tells us that God doesnt want anyone to die. Unfortunately, some people still think when we die, we still live. Doesnt really make sense.

God has done all that He can, but the death of Jesus does not "automatically" save us. We have to "respond" and turn away from our ways. Not everyone will be saved and not everyone wll be raised.

Jesus was raised from the dead and resurrection at the coming of Jesus is the hope of all his true followers, so there can be life - eternal life. For the gift of God is eternal life. A gift that we will only get when His son returns.

I think this requires a deeper study in as much as your examples is talking about dead bodies and not the afterlife.

1. Enoch (Gen 5:23-24).

The account of Enoch represents the earliest notion that human beings could inhabit the realms of God. The Hebrew root for the term "took" (Gen 5:24) refers to the snatching of a person’s body up to heaven. And because any mention of Enoch’s death is absent, this account elicits the theological question of whether Enoch was resurrected or received a glorified body without physical death.

2. The expression "gathered to his people" or "to go to his fathers."

Some have mistakenly understood this expression to refer to the burial of an individual in their family grave or in the area of their ancestors. However the biblical text makes a distinction between this expression and the actual act of burial.

3. Psalm 49:15English Standard Version (ESV)
15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah

4.
1And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

 

[cataway]

You position was that it was a vision. However, as they were talking, I wouldn't agree. The fact that there was a Paradise (a holding place before the sacrifice of Jesus) means that they weren't dead. As Jesus said, God is the God of the living and not of the dead. God didn't say "I WAS the God of Abraham" but rather "I am the God of Abraham".

then how do you explain away john 3:13 ?

13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

 

[Kenny]

then how do you explain away john 3:13 ?

13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Biblically.

There was a holding place called Abraham's bosom or Paradise that held those who were waiting for redemption. When Jesus died on the cross, his spirit went and preached to them:

1 Peter 3
18Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison --

When he preached and they believed he took those in captivity, captive to heaven.

Psalms 68:
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive : thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Eph 4:
8 Wherefore he saith , When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The ascension was so explosively great that some just came alive again:

Matt 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which sleptarose ,
53 And came out of the graves afterhis resurrection, and went into the holy city,and appeared unto many.

The rest (most), Jesus took to heaven.

(CONDENSED VERSION)

 

[cataway]

Biblically.

There was a holding place called Abraham's bosom or Paradise that held those who were waiting for redemption. When Jesus died on the cross, his spirit went and preached to them:

1 Peter 3
18Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison --

When he preached and they believed he took those in captivity, captive to heaven.

Psalms 68:
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive : thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Eph 4:
8 Wherefore he saith , When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The ascension was so explosively great that some just came alive again:

Matt 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which sleptarose ,
53 And came out of the graves afterhis resurrection, and went into the holy city,and appeared unto many.

The rest (most), Jesus took to heaven.

(CONDENSED VERSION)

you need to try harder

 

[moorea944]

I think this requires a deeper study in as much as your examples is talking about dead bodies and not the afterlife.

1. Enoch (Gen 5:23-24).

The account of Enoch represents the earliest notion that human beings could inhabit the realms of God. The Hebrew root for the term "took" (Gen 5:24) refers to the snatching of a person’s body up to heaven. And because any mention of Enoch’s death is absent, this account elicits the theological question of whether Enoch was resurrected or received a glorified body without physical death.

2. The expression "gathered to his people" or "to go to his fathers."

Some have mistakenly understood this expression to refer to the burial of an individual in their family grave or in the area of their ancestors. However the biblical text makes a distinction between this expression and the actual act of burial.

3. Psalm 49:15English Standard Version (ESV)
15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah

4.
1And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

A few problems here.

I think this requires a deeper study in as much as your examples is talking about dead bodies and not the afterlife.

No it doesnt. There is no afterlife. My vereses were talking about what happens to you in death. Your bringing in something else. Your bringing in your afterlife. Are you afraid of death?

1. Enoch (Gen 5:23-24).

The account of Enoch represents the earliest notion that human beings could inhabit the realms of God. The Hebrew root for the term "took" (Gen 5:24) refers to the snatching of a person’s body up to heaven. And because any mention of Enoch’s death is absent, this account elicits the theological question of whether Enoch was resurrected or received a glorified body without physical death.

Again, your taking it out of context. Enoch did not go to heaven. No one will recieve a glorified body until Christ returns. No one has ever gone to heaven, only Jesus. Enoch was taken somewhere else on earth.

2. The expression "gathered to his people" or "to go to his fathers."

This just means that they died and are buried with their fathers.

But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.

Ransom is redeemed. Soul is life. It's not talking about a "soul" that some people think it is. In the bible a soul can eat, die, sleep, weep, etc. There is no such thing as an "immortal soul". You will never find those two words together in scripture.

And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven,

Elijah never went to heaven. God took him into the "heavens", not heaven where God dwells. God transported him somewhere else. We know that he didnt die, because in 2 Chron, Elijah is writting a letter to the king seven years later.

When the bible talks about death, why cant you believe what it's saying? Why throw in things like, that's only talking about the body, but the soul goes to heaven. Show me a verses on that one!! Why does life have to go on in death? What hope of the resurrection would we have if that was the case? Doesnt make sense does it........ No one has ever gone to heaven, only Christ.

 

[Kolibri]

Rev 6
9And when the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their witness.
10 They called loudly to the Lord and said, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge the people who belong to this world for what they have done to us? When will you avenge our blood against these people?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters -- their fellow servants of Jesus -- had been martyred.

The first resurrection does not occur all at once. These ones' whose life-blood was sacrificed for "bearing witness concerning Jesus", their blood cried out as did Abel's. (Re 12:17; Ge 4:10) They are given life (as symbolized by white robes.) And yet they do not begin ruling as kings and priests yet. They await the remaining ones of Christ's brothers to finish their faithful course as humans. (1 Thess 4:16,17)

 

[Unification]

then how do you explain away john 3:13 ?

13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven.

 

[Unification]

then how do you explain away john 3:13 ?

13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, "even" the Son of man which is in heaven.

You're still looking at this from an earthly/literal perspective. To perhaps make this easier on you, when you think Father.... You can look up in the sky and see the literal heavens. When you think Son/the Christ, one needs to be looking within themselves and the heavens within and inside of them. No one can ever understand what spiritual "evening" is (the spiritual marriage) because all they see and are concerned with are physical,outward, earthly forms of everything, particularly marriage.

The serpent lifted up in the wilderness is the mind, and the Son of man must be lifted up too. Your veil and covering needs removed on your mind. Trust me, when the heavens are opened up within you, you'll know it. The resurrection and coming of the Christ is not something you'd miss.
Prior verse... You still don't even understand earthly things, what makes you think you can ever understand spiritual things? Lift up your mind.

 

[Kolibri]

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven.

"which is in heaven" is a spurious fragment at the end of the verse that makes no sense. It was Jesus, the Son of man himself, speaking while he was yet on the earth.