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Virtually Everyone is an Atheist in this Day and Age

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you explain it?

Well, I already tried to with this effort...
What I suppose you are trying to do is to provide perspective to people, in so far as everyone should have some understanding of atheism, given that there are Gods that they themselves don't believe in.

To be clear, I don't agree with much in this thread. But the little bit I quoted from myself here makes sense to me. Some people (such as @nazz, and @Hammer on chat) claim they believe in all Gods, perhaps, so that would render my statement inaccurate. I can live with that, although I suspect their method for defining a God would be germaine to the discussion. And the whole God concept definition thing bores me to tears.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't count me in your super majority. All gods are real.

Sure...for a given value of real. Or Gods.
I'd love to chat with you about this one day, but I suspect there'd be too much white noise if we did it here, to be honest. Maybe I should PM you?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
As I pointed out, some of the first atheists were Christians, not because they didn't have Belief, but because they'd were WITHOUT Belief when it came to other people's gods.

That's almost right. Atheist is a more modern term, and isn't an exact translation of the original Greek word (ἄθεος).
It was used to describe those who lacked belief in the 'official' Gods, regardless of their belief in other Gods. In modern terms, they were not atheists, though.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
The opposite of an atheist is not someone who believes in Christianity/Hinduism/Islam or any other recognized religion. The opposite of an atheist is someone who believes in ALL gods that have ever been worshipped throughout history. In this day and age virtually everyone is an atheist, when it comes to at least one god or another. There was a time when most people weren’t atheists; when people tended to believe in ALL gods and just happened to have certain ones that they worshipped and felt were more powerful.

Christians were among the first outspoken atheists, claiming a belief in their own god, while denying the existence of all other gods. Christians are atheists when it comes to Odin and Zeus, Vishnu and Ra, and every single other deity ever worshipped by man. The only difference between a Christian’s atheism and mine is that I have one more god on my list of those I don't happen to believe in than they do.
Peace be on you.
According to Ahmadiyya Muslims' , Holy Quran and Holy Prophet of Islam explained that there was and is One God only. As the time passes from current teaching for One God, people start to think about gods. Attributes of One God are considered gods latter. Then humanity is reminded about One God and so on.

More The Concept of God among the Aborigines of Australia
alislamDOTorg/library/books/revelation/part_3_section_2.html
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
A lot of people I chat to have a sort of vague belief in God but they aren't religious and it doesn't really seem to impact on their lives. This is just people I know, it's not like I'm hanging round on street corners asking strangers about it...honest! :p
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
A lot of people I chat to have a sort of vague belief in God but they aren't religious and it doesn't really seem to impact on their lives. This is just people I know, it's not like I'm hanging round on street corners asking strangers about it...honest! :p
Peace be on you. According to Quran, God Himself has placed this recognition in human as it is said:

[ch7:v173 @ alislamDOTorg/quran] And when thy Lord brings forth from Adam’s children — out of their loins — their offspring and makes them witnesses against their own selves by saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They say, ‘Yea, we do bear witness.’ This He does lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were surely unaware of this.’

As they grow this understanding finds various degrees due to various factors, but time to time, it sparks.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Peace be on you.
According to Ahmadiyya Muslims' , Holy Quran and Holy Prophet of Islam explained that there was and is One God only. As the time passes from current teaching for One God, people start to think about gods. Attributes of One God are considered gods latter. Then humanity is reminded about One God and so on.

More The Concept of God among the Aborigines of Australia
alislamDOTorg/library/books/revelation/part_3_section_2.html

The linked article is poor, in terms of scholarship, and severely biased in intent. Ironically, it claims bias on behalf of other studies (which is quite possibly true of some of the work mentioned, particularly the Limits of Savage Religion, but then again, that's over 125 years old).

As an example of what I mean, they refer to the concept that the Aboriginals tribes have different beliefs (true) and that there is a common belief in a single Supreme Creator. Assuming they mean monotheism, this is completely wrong. One of the examples given in the article is Bunjil, who they describe as conflating with Allah, God, Brahmâ and Parmatama etc.

Bunjil is an eagle, or an eaglehawk, depending on which cultural tradition you're referring to. He is one side of a dualist tradition, with the other being the Crow. He has two wives (who are black swans), and a son (the rainbow), as well as a brother (who is a bat).
Further, the presentation of Bunjil as an eagle is NOT a metaphorical reference to him in his state of 'Godhood' (which is not likely a means of reference anyway), but is instead his earthly form. His celestial form is that of a star (Altair), as is the form of his two wives.

Even further, the Bunjil stories range across many individual tribal groups. Whilst they differ in some details, this belies the linked articles suggestion that each tribal group was discrete and transmission of stories was not possible.

It's a bad article, mate. Trying to understand the Dreamtime through a lens of monotheism is not going to work. It's hard enough to understand WITHOUT those preconceptions, and with much more exposure.

As far as I know, there are no Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander members, but if there are, I'd be more than happy to be corrected on anything I've presented here.
 
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DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
....
..........

As an example of what I mean, they refer to the concept that the Aboriginals tribes have different beliefs (true) and that there is a common belief in a single Supreme Creator. Assuming they mean monotheism, this is completely wrong. One of the examples given in the article is Bunjil, who they describe as conflating with Allah, God, Brahmâ and Parmatama etc.

Bunjil is an eagle, or an eaglehawk, depending on which cultural tradition you're referring to. He is one side of a dualist tradition, with the other being the Crow. He has two wives (who are black swans), and a son (the rainbow), as well as a brother (who is a bat).
Further, the presentation of Bunjil as an eagle is NOT a metaphorical reference to him in his state of 'Godhood' (which is not likely a means of reference anyway), but is instead his earthly form. His celestial form is that of a star (Altair), as is the form of his two wives.

Even further, the Bunjil stories range across many individual tribal groups. Whilst they differ in some details, this belies the linked articles suggestion that each tribal group was discrete and transmission of stories was not possible.

It's a bad article, mate. Trying to understand the Dreamtime through a lens of monotheism is not going to work. It's hard enough to understand WITHOUT those preconceptions, and with much more exposure.

As far as I know, there are no Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander members, but if there are, I'd be more than happy to be corrected on anything I've presented here.

Peace be on you.
There are similar findings too which tell author is not alone in his claim (details can be different):

For example:

".....Andrew Lang was the first modern scholar to suggest the existence of primitive monotheism. He believed that monotheism had everywhere developed out of a lower animistic form of worship. However, Lang began to doubt the validity of this theory when he learned of the discovery of the existence of a belief in a High God among the primitive tribes of Southeast Australia. Upon studying these people and similar primitive tribes, he found clear evidence of the existence of a belief in a High God, usually existing alongside other mythical elements. He found that they did not regard the High God of these tribes as a spirit but as a being that really exists....."

Source: Theistic and Animistic Beliefs of the Supernatural: High Gods, Supreme Being, Spirits and Ancestor Worship | Pursenla Ozukum - Academia.edu

Supreme Being Idea:
"
The Supreme Being of the Kulin tribes is called Bunjil; he dwells high in the heavens, beyond the 'dark heavens' (it is to this dark heaven that medicine men ascend, as to a mountain top); there another divine figure, Gargomitch, welcomes them and intercedes for them with Bunjil.....

It was Bunjil who created the earth, trees, animals and man himself (whom he fashioned of clay, breathing a soul into him through his nose, the mouth and the navel) But Bunjil, having given his son Bimbeal power of the earth and his daughter Karakarook power over the sky, has himself withdrawn from the world. He stays above the clouds, like a 'lord' with a great sword in his hand………………

Baiame, the supreme divinity among the tribes of South-East Australia (Kamilaroi, Wiradjuri, Euahlayi), dwells in the sky, beside a stream of water and receives the souls of the innocent. He sits on a crystal throne; the sun and moon are …. his eyes. Thunder is his voice; he causes the rain to fall; in this sense too he is the Creator. For Baiame is self created and has created everything from nothing.... Other tribes of the East coast (Muring etc) believe in a similar divine being, Daramulum.."
Source; All About Heaven - Observations A-Z


Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander members
1= Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



2=
Indigenous Traditions - Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders
"
Key Beliefs
  • The earth is eternal, and so are the many ancestral figures / beings who inhabit it.
  • These beings are often associated with particular animals, for example Kangaroo-men, Emu-men or Bowerbird-women.
  • As they journeyed across the face of the Earth these powerful beings created human, plant and animal life; and they left traces of their journeys in the natural features of the land.
  • They also connected particular groups of people with particular regions and languages.
  • Some groups held belief in a supreme being.
  • The Dreaming continues to control the natural world."

The point is that primitive people carry an idea of some sort of High Power. Obviously it has mixed up with other side belief.

Unity of God is the base and then comes decay. You may have different idea.
Good wishes.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Christians were among the first outspoken atheists, claiming a belief in their own god, while denying the existence of all other gods. Christians are atheists when it comes to Odin and Zeus, Vishnu and Ra, and every single other deity ever worshipped by man. The only difference between a Christian’s atheism and mine is that I have one more god on my list of those I don't happen to believe in than they do.

An atheist is one who does not believe that there are any gods or deities existent in reality. Christians believe in a deity, ergo they are not atheists. You're playing a word game.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Sometimes I just want to shout "That's not how words work."

Christians weren't atheists. First off, the Jews predated the Christians by quite a bit, secondly although the Romans considered Jews to be very strange and something like atheistic due to being monotheist and not recognizing other deities, they still weren't atheist. You're atheist towards any single god, you're monotheist or polytheist or pantheist, or what have you.

In short: THAT IS NOT HOW WORDS WORK.

You're playing a semantics game.
I don't know if this is what the OP intended, but another way of looking at it:

If a theist was to apply the same type of thinking or the same standard of justification to their own preferred religion as all the ones he rejects (or even just never bothers to think about), then he wouldn't believe in that one either.

IOW, any theist who doesn't believe in all gods (i.e. any theist who actually exists) is working from a double standard.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Peace be on you.
There are similar findings too which tell author is not alone in his claim (details can be different):

I don't doubt he's not alone in his claim. I doubt he is accurate in his claim. Further, the scholarship in the article you linked to was shoddy and poorly represented, so even if there IS a legitimate argument, that article didn't make it.

For example:

".....Andrew Lang was the first modern scholar to suggest the existence of primitive monotheism. He believed that monotheism had everywhere developed out of a lower animistic form of worship. However, Lang began to doubt the validity of this theory when he learned of the discovery of the existence of a belief in a High God among the primitive tribes of Southeast Australia. Upon studying these people and similar primitive tribes, he found clear evidence of the existence of a belief in a High God, usually existing alongside other mythical elements. He found that they did not regard the High God of these tribes as a spirit but as a being that really exists....."

Source: Theistic and Animistic Beliefs of the Supernatural: High Gods, Supreme Being, Spirits and Ancestor Worship | Pursenla Ozukum - Academia.edu

Yep, I'm well aware of Andrew Lang, and his concepts, which later became Urmonotheismus. They've been pretty thoroughly rejected since they were originally formed, over a hundred years ago. Do you have anything more modern?
For what it's worth, consider EE Evans-Pritchard for comparison with Lang. His work in Theories of Primitive Religion are relevant to this discussion, I think. I'm massively paraphrasing here, but in short the cultural baggage and beliefs one brings to a study of other cultures directly impacts on how other cultures are interpreted.

Not even Christian apologists commonly support Lang's theories these days. That should be indicative.


Supreme Being Idea:
"
The Supreme Being of the Kulin tribes is called Bunjil; he dwells high in the heavens, beyond the 'dark heavens' (it is to this dark heaven that medicine men ascend, as to a mountain top); there another divine figure, Gargomitch, welcomes them and intercedes for them with Bunjil.....

It was Bunjil who created the earth, trees, animals and man himself (whom he fashioned of clay, breathing a soul into him through his nose, the mouth and the navel) But Bunjil, having given his son Bimbeal power of the earth and his daughter Karakarook power over the sky, has himself withdrawn from the world. He stays above the clouds, like a 'lord' with a great sword in his hand………………

Baiame, the supreme divinity among the tribes of South-East Australia (Kamilaroi, Wiradjuri, Euahlayi), dwells in the sky, beside a stream of water and receives the souls of the innocent. He sits on a crystal throne; the sun and moon are …. his eyes. Thunder is his voice; he causes the rain to fall; in this sense too he is the Creator. For Baiame is self created and has created everything from nothing.... Other tribes of the East coast (Muring etc) believe in a similar divine being, Daramulum.."
Source; All About Heaven - Observations A-Z

You're indirectly referencing Mircea Eliade. He, at least, would better account for Bunjil not being human in nature or form. However, this research is again outdated. Eliade was a historian, not an anthropologist, and there have been plenty of repudiations of his work too. For now, I'll limit my offering to couple of quotes regarding him, but consider others such as Geoffrey Kirk, or Douglas Allen if you want further information.

Edmund Leach (1966) in reviewing Eliade's various publications;

Since Eliade professes to be an expert on archaic modes of thought he necessarily relies very heavily on anthropological sources and his formidable bibliographies convey the impression of enormous erudition. But here again the proliferation of titles arouses a certain skepticism. A man who publishes a dozen books within fifteen years and appends over a thousand references to at least three of them is probably learned in only a rather superficial sense, but Eliade’s long book lists at least indicate what he has not read [e.g., Mauss, Hertz, and Van Gennep] and in some cases this test is quite shattering….Whatever may be the explanation for this silence it can do Eliade no credit. I am not suggesting that his erudition is wholly fake but that his knowledge of the history of anthropology must be abysmal. This is not a subject which can be understood by reading predigested textbooks and scrabbling through an index to find an appropriate reference.

Source : Sermons By a Man on a Ladder by Edmund R. Leach | The New York Review of Books

Tony Swain (1993) in reference to Eliade's claim that Aboriginal conception of time was cyclical;

The most sophisticated offender in this regard was Mircea Eliade. His reading of Aboriginal traditions was essentially in accord with his comparativist thesis that cyclical history is a mechanism for overcoming the terror of time.

In a remarkably Eurocentric reading of the ethnographies, Eliade has implied that throughout Australia people recognised a great first cause which amounted to a Supreme Being. His evidence for this claim was in fact confined to two regions, the seat of [colonial] invasion in the south-east, and the intensively missionized Hermannsburg area. Given the fact that the Aranda “High God” held himself particularly aloof from the world, Eliade saw his opportunity to “prove” the original universality of a single God.

What we are witnessing, of course, is Eliade’s own cultural projection, for as he revealed in his journals, the “secret message” in his history of religions was that “myths and religions, in all their variety, are the result of the vacuum left in the world by the retreat of God, his transformation intodeus otiousus.” Eliade thus bequeaths Aborigines [a worldview and Ancestral monism that they never possessed].

Source : A Place for Strangers: Towards a History of Australian Aboriginal Being



Unsure on the relevance of this link, sorry. If it helps, I took subjects on Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islands culture at University, albeit reluctantly. Was always more interested in Native American history, for some reason.

2=
Indigenous Traditions - Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders
"
Key Beliefs
  • The earth is eternal, and so are the many ancestral figures / beings who inhabit it.
  • These beings are often associated with particular animals, for example Kangaroo-men, Emu-men or Bowerbird-women.
  • As they journeyed across the face of the Earth these powerful beings created human, plant and animal life; and they left traces of their journeys in the natural features of the land.
  • They also connected particular groups of people with particular regions and languages.
  • Some groups held belief in a supreme being.
  • The Dreaming continues to control the natural world."

The point is that primitive people carry an idea of some sort of High Power. Obviously it has mixed up with other side belief.

This would take the loosest possible definition of what a High Power is, and require you to focus only on certain tribes. It's also worth considering that some tribes had exposure to Muslim beliefs well before any white settlers came to Australia.
Makassan contact with Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regina Ganter and Peta Stephenson, drawing on the work of Ian Mcintosh (2000), argue that aspects of Islam were creatively adapted by the Yolngu, and Muslim references survive in certain ceremonies and Dreaming stories today.[6][27] Stephenson speculates that the Makassans may have also been the first to bring Islam toAustralia.[28][better source needed]

According to anthropologist John Bradley from Monash University, "If you go to north-east Arnhem Land there is [a trace of Islam] in song, it is there in painting, it is there in dance, it is there in funeral rituals. It is patently obvious that there are borrowed items. With linguistic analysis as well, you're hearing hymns to Allah, or at least certain prayers to Allah."[29]

You need to ask yourself why you're trying to prove this, and what it is you are trying to prove, exactly.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Someone who believes in one specific deity would be monotheistic. And then there is polytheism, henotheism, monolatrism, pantheism, panentheism, and a whole host of others.

All of them are different types of theism.
An atheist is something else.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Yeah, you could see it that way. Animism. It varies a bit across the country. Much like in North America, different tribal groupings, languages, and beliefs, although there are common threads.

A better/more recent understanding of animism can be gained by reading the Handbook of Contemporary Animism, edited by Graham Harvey. Some of the authors within deal with the fact that earlier concepts of indigenous monotheism arise from trying to fit what indigenous peoples believed and practiced into a framework based solely on the "advanced" western concept of the Christian God.

Yes, most indigenous peoples have some sort of creator/high god that they acknowledge, but that deity is often very distant, or so basic that it does not take a significant role in their daily beliefs and behaviors (for instance, it exists in the hearts of all beings). They also have a variety of deities and spirits (other-than-human persons, in the new conception of thought reflected throughout Harvey's volume and other work) who for the most part were descended from or created by the "over-god."

To say that indigenous/traditional peoples were/are monotheists, and/or atheists, is nonsense because it tries to fit non-Western beliefs into very different Western belief structures. One of the biggest Western errors in understanding indigenous animism is the Western idea that "religion" is something separate in a culture (most cultures have no equivalent concept), and that it is primarily about what individuals believe. To the contrary, animism is mostly about practice, about engaging in an appropriate, respectful relationship with other-than-human persons through ritual, "magic," etc. Shamanistic practice is one of those ways of interacting appropriately with the other-than-human persons.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'
^ This.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Yup. This thread pretty much captures why I feel the terms "atheist" and "theist" are pretty much useless in our contemporary, multicultural, information age society.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yup. This thread pretty much captures why I feel the terms "atheist" and "theist" are pretty much useless in our contemporary, multicultural, information age society.
The usefulness (or not) of the terms "atheist" and "theist" is directly related to the meaningfulness (or not) of the term "god".
 
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