Did the Bible predict nuclear warheads….. in detail???

[Simplelogic]

One more interesting one:

1The oracle concerning Damascus.
“Behold, Damascus is about to be removed from being a city
And will become a fallen ruin.
2“The cities of Aroer are forsaken;
They will be for flocks to lie down in,
And there will be no one to frighten them Isaiah 17:1-2

When was Damascus ever destroyed in this manner in history??

 

[1robin]

This is true. Daniel's 10 nation coalition or confederacy is 100% Islamic geographically. Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardson have made some interesting points along these lines.

I have heard Shoebat make that very convincing argument, but I am unfamiliar with Richardson. The argument you mention is convincing enough in a vacuum but when you can see it occurring in our lifetimes things get very serious. One interesting paradox of prophecy is if true there is no stopping it. I have no desire to live through the final events but I afraid they are encroaching into my time span despite all efforts to the contrary. Of course revelations is the book most likely to be misinterpreted (not that any interpretation would eliminate a dooms day end result) so maybe some of this of stuff may not be as terrible as it sounds.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not trying to make anything up. I am trying to understand a cryptic passage which has baffled Rabbi's and Christian scholars for centuries. The prophet clearly saw a large cylindrical shaped object which lifted a basket with a lead covering up from the ground. I am open to any other valid interpretation if someone would be willing to put one forward.

I would guess 9 out of 100 books about Revelation take an abusive approach to Zechariah, the goal being to quote-mine it. They aren't 'Trying to understand it'. They aren't baffled. They just aren't interested! If they weren't all flustered about end-of-world scenarios they wouldn't bother reading it at all. Why are you reading it? You're reading it, because you think it would be cool if the scrolls were missiles. That isn't the approach to understand anything written about scrolls. You haven't read chapter 4 of Zechariah, but you are talking about chapter 5. Read 4:6 and see what it says about the two witnesses.

 

[Brickjectivity]

100% Islamic geographically

See? You're interested in (crazy) end-of-world scenarios. You've no interest in studying Zechariah for its own sake, as in to understand what it means. Naturally you are baffled on how to connect it with scud missiles.

 

[Simplelogic]

See? You're interested in (crazy) end-of-world scenarios. You've no interest in studying Zechariah for its own sake, as in to understand what it means. Naturally you are baffled on how to connect it with scud missiles.

No…that is just textually true.

 

[Simplelogic]

I would guess 9 out of 100 books about Revelation take an abusive approach to Zechariah, the goal being to quote-mine it. They aren't 'Trying to understand it'. They aren't baffled. They just aren't interested! If they weren't all flustered about end-of-world scenarios they wouldn't bother reading it at all. Why are you reading it? You're reading it, because you think it would be cool if the scrolls were missiles. That isn't the approach to understand anything written about scrolls. You haven't read chapter 4 of Zechariah, but you are talking about chapter 5. Read 4:6 and see what it says about the two witnesses.

Still waiting for your analysis of Zech 5.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Still waiting for your analysis of Zech 5.

Welcome to the ignore list, you who don't read posts and then pretend that you did.

 

[Simplelogic]

Welcome to the ignore list, you who don't read posts and then pretend that you did.

You didn't explain any of the items mentioned in Ch 5. What is there a massive scroll flying through the air with a basket holding a women? This is a logical question.

 

[1robin]

See? You're interested in (crazy) end-of-world scenarios. You've no interest in studying Zechariah for its own sake, as in to understand what it means. Naturally you are baffled on how to connect it with scud missiles.

Even if you forget Zachariah or the entire bible there is nothing crazy about an Islamic precipitated nuclear war. Prophecy or no prophecy I cannot even see how it can avoided. All you need is resentment towards a superpower (apparently for being a superpower), fanaticism, religious conviction (no matter how false), and oil money that can buy weapons that can destroy entire regions and Islam has each one in spades. No scud missile interpretations needed for this we (or I should say the middle east) is marching as hard as it can towards Armageddon prophecy or not. Throw in the fact the two biggest superpowers (plus maybe the third) has a vested interest in the region which will escalate what Islam starts into a potential global meltdown and revelations almost seems tame. For crying out loud we can destroy all life on earth many times over and have the moral insanity to have almost done so at least twice. What is crazy is denying the inevitable.

 

[McBell]

This interpretation gets a little more interesting in the following verses:

9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two fire offerings(aisha), coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket (ephah) between earth and heaven. Zech 5:9

Interesting to note that the prophet takes a slightly different approach. He is no longer referring to the megillah/scroll but to the basket/fire offering. He says that the "basket" (which is covered in lead) had wings like the wings of a stork. It is interesting because storks mainly sore through the air with their wings outstretched. I believe it is possible that the prophet was envisioning modern aircraft and was using the best analogies of his day to describe what he saw.

Forer Effect

 

[Levite]

Ok…kewl. No argument on the historical backdrop. I agree that Zechariah's prophecies did not come to pass in his day. This could lead one to believe they are yet to be fulfilled, hence my interpretation on Zech 5. You agree that the Rabbi's believe that some of Zechariah's prophecies pertain to he future so you can understand my logic behind future application.

Regarding Zech 5. I have not yet heard you say anything about the actual prophecy yet. You are arguing that Zechariah is speaking of events in his own day in Ch 5 correct? So can you please give me your opinion on what the 30 something foot megillah was which lifted the basket between the earth and sky. Can you explain to me how stuffing an evil "woman" into this basket fits in to the historical setting? Can you explain the lead covering which keeps this women trapped into this basket and how it relates to the Babylonian judgement?

I am interested in ANY other valid interpretation of the text but so far, none has been put forward. I do appreciate your critique though. It helps me decide if I actually believe in this interpretation.

The size of the scroll is irrelevant. It's a symbol of Torah: the giant size probably is an image related to the importance of the Torah scroll in his times, when it was still new to have all five books together in one scroll. The measure basket is an image of weighing things out. The "woman" image is a personification of wickedness, not an actual woman. The measure basket is sealed up in order to keep wickedness from growing beyond measure-- lead seals were common in both treasure boxes and in ritually sealed caskets of that time.

The overall imagery is directing the listener to the prophet's words not to ignore Torah, to keep wickedness in check wherever it may be, and to rather embrace God's path and teachings as the land is restored from the Exile.

 

[Parsimony]

Do we even know that the nuclear warheads used in scud missiles have lead casings? There are other materials that work as radiation shields besides lead (such as beryllium, boron and tungsten carbide).

 

[McBell]

Did the Bible predict nuclear warheads….. in detail???

no, it did not.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Even if you forget Zachariah or the entire bible there is nothing crazy about an Islamic precipitated nuclear war.

It is a possibility without Zechariah who has nothing to do with it.

Prophecy or no prophecy I cannot even see how it can avoided.

It has to be avoided, so lets assume its going to be. If we are wrong, at least it won't be because we gave up. Besides if it doesn't happen it will embarrass the twelvers.

All you need is resentment towards a superpower (apparently for being a superpower), fanaticism, religious conviction (no matter how false), and oil money that can buy weapons that can destroy entire regions and Islam has each one in spades.

Also it isn't good for there to be nuclear superpowers, even if USA were the only one (which it isn't). Today America seems sane, but so did Germany before the world wars. Germany was the cultural center of everything at that time. The Germans were practical, fun loving, God-fearing people. No matter how terrific a country is, it can change quickly like Germany once did.

No scud missile interpretations needed for this we (or I should say the middle east) is marching as hard as it can towards Armageddon prophecy or not. Throw in the fact the two biggest superpowers (plus maybe the third) has a vested interest in the region which will escalate what Islam starts into a potential global meltdown and revelations almost seems tame. For crying out loud we can destroy all life on earth many times over and have the moral insanity to have almost done so at least twice. What is crazy is denying the inevitable.

Since the 1980's I have seen a stream of writers like Tim LaHaye make money from scaring people. They write books full of righteous sounding patter and lace it with fear and connect current events supposedly with arbitrary bits of prophecies. They do it to Christians, and they do it to Muslims. Of all of the books about the apocalypse that have been written and sold millions of copies, none of them have done anyone any good. Instead they have served to heighten fear, make people shut their eyes and feel righteous while becoming increasingly disconnected -- not that I am accusing you of that. I'm saying that usually this kind of current events + prophecy is junk. In the 1980's we were certain it was the Russians. We had prophecies all figured out to that effect. Now its the Muslims and tomorrow it will be China, and then perhaps in 50 years we will be connecting prophecies with the evil atheist Canada. We'll call it the 'True King of the North'.

 

[Simplelogic]

Do we even know that the nuclear warheads used in scud missiles have lead casings? There are other materials that work as radiation shields besides lead (such as beryllium, boron and tungsten carbide).

Yes. Almost always have lead.

 

[1robin]

It is a possibility without Zechariah who has nothing to do with it.

So you were objecting to the foundation of the prediction not the prediction its self. Since it is late and eschatology can be very tedious I will leave it there. I thought you were saying any dooms day idea was unsound. I am afraid it is all too sound but I will leave Zachariah alone for now.

It has to be avoided, so lets assume its going to be. If we are wrong, at least it won't be because we gave up. Besides if it doesn't happen it will embarrass the twelvers.

I am not sure what 12ers are. I can only think 2012 prophecy guys but since that is passed they are already embarrassed. I am in a great big hurry here so let me just add some point real quick.

1. I being a Christian (not withstanding Zachariah or not) have plenty of scripture that predicts a violent dooms day scenario so keep it in mind that my faith justifies the predictions of dire modern events and while I might wish it away I can't change prophecy.
2. What must be done IMO to stem the tide is the one thing that no one will do until it is too late. It would require the eradication of radical Islam. I don't mean the average descent Muslim but they tens of thousands willing to bring an end to Israel by any means, and to harass US and Great Britain as much as possible.
3. If the flagging US moral will reverses course I don't even know how you could do this without a lot of collateral damage and creating the very class of people your trying to stop.
4. I can discuss wish fulfillment all day but my specialty is military history and I see no way what so ever this all doesn't come out badly. In 5000 years there have been 300 with peace. The problem is now we have the means to kill everything.

Also it isn't good for there to be nuclear superpowers, even if USA were the only one (which it isn't). Today America seems sane, but so did Germany before the world wars. Germany was the cultural center of everything at that time. The Germans were practical, fun loving, God-fearing people. No matter how terrific a country is, it can change quickly like Germany once did.
Since the 1980's I have seen a stream of writers like Tim LaHaye make money from scaring people. They write books full of righteous sounding patter and lace it with fear and connect current events supposedly with arbitrary bits of prophecies. They do it to Christians, and they do it to Muslims. Of all of the books about the apocalypse that have been written and sold millions of copies, none of them have done anyone any good. Instead they have served to heighten fear, make people shut their eyes and feel righteous while becoming increasingly disconnected -- not that I am accusing you of that. I'm saying that usually this kind of current events + prophecy is junk. In the 1980's we were certain it was the Russians. We had prophecies all figured out to that effect. Now its the Muslims and tomorrow it will be China, and then perhaps in 50 years we will be connecting prophecies with the evil atheist Canada. We'll call it the 'True King of the North'.

Well Nuclear weapons are similar to dictatorships. They are when held by good people of great value, but when by bad are great evils. I do not know how we could not have used a weapon that saved around a predicted 4 million casualties and once the atom is out of the bottle there was not getting it back in. Fissionable material isn't a moral substance and as long as more civilized people have it a great deterrent to the uncivilized. The problem is when bad men get hold of them and that is on the doorstep. We can hope it goes away but if you know anything about history you know the one thing we don't do is learn from it and the weapons are not going away and eventually will be used. You can't reason with evil, it is restless, and will never cease unless by force, no laws are of use against the lawless.

As for the Germans they were by and large good people led by a few maniacal lunatics. Hitler hated Christianity, it gets confusing because he early on courted the church for their influence, when they refused he turned of them with a vengeance. Traditional values might have driven the average German but their politics was driven by Nietzsche, social Darwinism, Tibetan mysticism, and Hitler's insanity. There will always be Hitler's and evil atheist utopias. The one thing necessary for them to succeed is good men either failing to stop them or having a secular ethical system that does not provide the grounds to do so.


All of this requires more explanation but I am on the way out. Have a good one.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So you were objecting to the foundation of the prediction not the prediction its self. Since it is late and eschatology can be very tedious I will leave it there. I thought you were saying any dooms day idea was unsound. I am afraid it is all too sound but I will leave Zachariah alone for now.

*Picks up the phone and places it to his ear* Hello? Is this 911? I'm being subjected to intense psychological warfare!

1. I being a Christian (not withstanding Zachariah or not) have plenty of scripture that predicts a violent dooms day scenario so keep it in mind that my faith justifies the predictions of dire modern events and while I might wish it away I can't change prophecy.

Christians inherit a lot of peace literature about waging war with peace. For example Jesus rides a white horse with a sword sticking out of his mouth. The melting of the Earth is similarly about peace, and its amazing power far more powerful than war the effects of which are relatively worthless and short term.

2. What must be done IMO to stem the tide is the one thing that no one will do until it is too late. It would require the eradication of radical Islam. I don't mean the average descent Muslim but they tens of thousands willing to bring an end to Israel by any means, and to harass US and Great Britain as much as possible.

Here's where you run into the problem of determining who is part of radical Islam. It is a matter of the heart, so in effect you are trying to separate tares from wheat before they are ripe. It would be better for the world to end by nuclear war then to try and identify and prematurely separate good people from evil ones. In the USA every citizen has the duty to be brave and to respect the rights of others. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, no matter how dangerous they appear to be. The issue of who is a radical Islamist is also a matter of the heart, not as simple as picking a mosque. We have been finding this out with the way our country has completely misunderstood the ME conflicts. We have tried to label good and bad people, and we have failed to identify who is who.

3. If the flagging US moral will reverses course I don't even know how you could do this without a lot of collateral damage and creating the very class of people your trying to stop.

Yes, collateral damage is bad. Look at Australia, which started as a colony of criminals. Today its a great place, but what would have happened if someone had gone there to get rid of 50% of their 'Bad' ancestors? How would they go to Australia and pick out the 'Really dangerous' people from the nice people?

4. I can discuss wish fulfillment all day but my specialty is military history and I see no way what so ever this all doesn't come out badly. In 5000 years there have been 300 with peace. The problem is now we have the means to kill everything.

People are divided about this, but we have always had this potential since the invention of fire. The world has already survived several nuclear explosions and disasters.

 

[Parsimony]

Yes. Almost always have lead.

Source?

 

[Ingledsva]

Thanks for weighing in. Let me just say that this is not my personal opinion or discovery. It was discovered by a man I know and I am personally undecided.

Regarding the two olive branches- I don't see the connection between the two megillahs and the two Olive trees. I personally believe in Johns revelation so I believe it accurately portrays the Olive trees as two human witnesses who are yet to come.

Regarding the historical context- I am aware that the prophet was speaking about the time he was living in. All prophets did this. It is also true that many times these same prophets spoke about latter days future events. These prophecies are sandwiched in between other prophesies which pertained only to the time period the prophet lived in. I can give you multiple examples of this if you want.

Regarding Zech 6-
"Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh YHVH of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of YHVH:

Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of YHVH; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (King & Priest)."

This also is not in reference to the two olive trees or the two megillahs. The King/Priest prophecies are concerning one man (BRANCH) imho. This is an interesting passage which correlates to many others which speak of the messiah being from the tribe of Judah and Levi. I believe I can prove that Yeshua was from both of these tribes but that is a whole other conversation.

You have made your case for why Zech 5 is not referring to missiles but I have yet to hear your interpretation of what Zech 5 is talking about in your view. Can you give me your personal interpretation of the following text?

1Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, there was a flying scroll. 2And he said to me, “What do you see?” And I answered, “I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits.” 3Then he said to me, “This is the curse that is going forth over the face of the whole land; surely everyone who steals will be purged away according to the writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according to the writing on the other side. 4“I will make it go forth,” declares the LORD of hosts, “and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name; and it will spend the night within that house and consume it with its timber and stones.”
5Then the angel who was speaking with me went out and said to me, “Lift up now your eyes and see what this is going forth.” 6I said, “What is it?” And he said, “This is the ephah going forth.” Again he said, “This is their appearance in all the land 7(and behold, a lead cover was lifted up); and this is a woman sitting inside the ephah.” 8Then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he threw her down into the middle of the ephah and cast the lead weight on its opening. Zech 5: 1-8

These are NOT future prophecies, - that is just more hijacking and twisting of Jewish texts.

I will go back and take a closer look at it in the Hebrew, later tonight.

However, in view of the setting, I would guess the "thief" represents those who took the Hebrew captive for those NOTED - 70 years, - The Babylonian captivity.

Zec 7:5 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?

And the "one who swears falsely by my name," probably the Hebrew that went astray during the captivity.

PS. Like most Christians you keep insisting this is a future prophecy! So much so that you post ONLY Zec 6:12 claiming it is about Jesus - while leaving out Zec 6:11 - which tells us who the BRANCH here IS!

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh YHVH of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of YHVH:


*

 

[Simplelogic]

No. None of them have a diameter anywhere near 6 ft. You got your numbers wrong.

The numbers are wrong. I am discrediting your interpretation because you made a mistake and got the numbers wrong. The dimensions of a scud do not mirror those given by the prophet. It is not that they are 'not exact', they are wrong.

Ghauri (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia