Are Muslims right about Paul?

[Simplelogic]

But Paul is actually correct in saying that 'faith' is above law. In Judaism this concept is ideally adhered to, as well. This is why the written Torah is not completely binding, as well.

I agree that Paul's logic is compatible with Orthodox (Pharisaic) thought. Paul was, in fact, a Pharisee his whole life. Yeshua hated the doctrines of the Pharisees and he said so over and over.

 

[Simplelogic]

Part of the law is verbal Torah, if Jesus didn't believe in this, He didn't understand the nature of Judaic belief concerning how we get our laws in the first place. That's fine because I believe that everyone is entitled to their own belief, however that is
*'secular' in nature, because it puts written immutable and non-addable law above prophecy etc. This is going against the traditional methodology of the Hebraic religion.

*The concept is secular, doesn't mean the adherents to that idea are 'secular'.

Not really. You keep elevating the opinions of the Orthodox to represent all of Judaism. This logic is extremely flawed whether we are talking about the first century or the present.

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree that Paul's logic is compatible with Orthodox (Pharisaic) thought. Paul was, in fact, a Pharisee his whole life. Yeshua hated the doctrines of the Pharisees and he said so over and over.

Well look, we don't really know exactly what was going on at the time. One thing for sure, though, speaking against the verbal Torah is the first sign a person doesn't understand the nature of written Torah compilation, or the way in which laws would be added in the first place. This is hypothetical as well because I'm not entirely sure Jesus was actually saying that.

 

[Desert Snake]

Not really. You keep elevating the opinions of the Orthodox to represent all of Judaism. This logic is extremely flawed whether we are talking about the first century or the present.

I'm not Orthodox, what I'm saying is that Jesus would be incorrect in the opinion of -->written Torah over verbal Torah. Ideally verbal Torah would be part of at least many Jewish or even Noahide etc. belief system, that's the traditional way.

 

[sojourner]

I don't need you to agree with it. My point is that Jesus believed it was. You can do with that what you want.

How do you know what Jesus believed? You're so bound up in trying to prove the cogency of "written Torah," that you're completely ignoring (if you are even aware of) the nature of the gospels (which is the only source of information we have about Jesus). Do you understand that each gospel writer had a particular agenda, and that each gospel writer manipulated "quotations" of Jesus to suit his own agenda? Because of that we don't really know what Jesus "believed." You're making assumptions that are not based in exegesis and putting them forward as hard fact. You're further narrowing and sensationalizing some of the things Jesus may have said, that can be taken more than one way, and that may be only literary devices on the part of the author in order to make unsubstantiable claims about Jesus. "Jesus taught that stoning was OK." Bah! You can't prove Jesus taught that, and you can't prove that he said it. And you can't prove what, precisely, he meant if he said it. Stop dragging people away from Xy with wild claims.

This is nothing but veiled proselytization. Stop. It.

 

[sojourner]

I never said I knew who you were.

By saying that you don't think I understand, you make some sort of claim to know about me. Trust me. You don't.

 

[sojourner]

Do you have any issues with the texts I provided? Do you want to argue any of these points anymore?

See post #186.

 

[sojourner]

Well he did. He preached complete return to Torah. If you don't like that then don't follow him.

You don't know that. All you have is guesswork.

 

[sojourner]

Orthodox Jews believe that Rabbi's have the authority to make new laws and change Torah commands. The Torah itself, says they can't:

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deut 4:2

Fundamentalist extremism.

 

[sojourner]

I realize that. I am willing to prove each point in time.

Just go ahead and do it now, so we can refute it and be done with your foolishness.

 

[sojourner]

I also believe I can prove that Jesus and James (his brother) completely rejected Paul.

Jesus didn't know Paul. You believe wrong. James and Paul reached consensus at the Council of Jerusalem.

 

[sojourner]

Verbal Torah is the method (supposedly) of how one comes to written Torah. This is because Judaic belief in it's correct form allows for additions to traditions. The written Torah literally is from the verbal Torah. The laws of the written Torah are then debated and some are followed, some not.

That is certainly the method used in redacting the texts. Perhaps the Poster is unaware of the nature of the texts?

 

[Desert Snake]

That is certainly the method used in redacting the texts. Perhaps the Poster is unaware of the nature of the texts?

That's my guess. Also as I said I don't know if the OP opinion of Jesus's views and teachings are even accurate, so it's basically all hypothetical anyway.

 

[sojourner]

I definitely believe that the Torah is a perfect law.

Fundamentalist fanatacism.
Thousands of years of Judaism disagree with you.

I now am convinced that every command was designed to STOP EVIL from entering into Israel.

Duh!

The Temple has still not returned. But when the Messiah comes, the whole Torah will be valid again.

Perhaps, but it will only be valid for Jews.

-I can prove that Paul was speaking against James and his followers (the circumcision party).

Again: Duh! That's why they convened the council at Jerusalem, in which consensus was reached.

James versus Paul

Now we begin to see the true colors of your purpose here. You don't want to debate whether the Muslims were right about Paul -- you want to push your fundamentalist agenda. It's proselytizing.

-I can prove that Yeshua commends the Ephesian church (in Asia) for rejecting a man who claimed to be an apostle and was NOT. Paul later admits that "all Asia had rejected" him.

-Yeshua said do not listen to those who say "he is in the wilderness". Yeshus continues and says that when he returns EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. Paul claimed he met Yeshua (in the wilderness) on the road to damascus! The very thing Yeshua said false prophets would do!

-Yeshua also used the term "ravening wolves" when he warned his twelve about false prophets who would come in and steel the sheep.

blah, blah, blah. Go support an alien conspiracy theory somewhere. Please.

 

[sojourner]

Who is the Benjamite Wolf?

Matt. 7:15 "ravening wolves" are "false prophets"

Matt. 7:15 "ravening wolves" appear as "sheep," i.e., claim to be Christians.
Genesis 49:27

In the latter days, Benjamin shall be a "ravening wolf." Genesis 49:27

This "ravening wolf" from Benjamin's tribe first shall kill its "prey" in the morning.(Saul 'was a murderer from the beginning,' the same as said of Satan.
Genesis 49:27 Later this "ravening wolf" from Benjamin's tribe will "divide the spoil" i.e., plunder and divide its prey. Rom. 11:1 Phil. 3:5

Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
Acts 7:58 8:1-3 Paul starts out participating in murders of Christians. 'A murderer from the beginning' Gal. 2:9

Paul later divides the church along Gentile-Jew lines, reserving for himself the right to recruit Gentiles, claiming the Jerusalem church relinquished the Gentile-mission exclusively to Paul. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Ezek. 22:26-32

The "ravening wolves" will come who do "violence to the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to participate in food sacrificed to demons, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name. Rom. 14:5; Col. 2:14-16

Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and taught the Sabbath rule was a shadow of things to come, and no one can any longer judge another on failure to keep the Sabbath. 2 Cor. 2:14; Gal. 5:1; Rom. 7:1 et seq.; Rom. 10:4; 2 Cor. 3:7; Gal. 5:1; Col. 2:14-17; Rom.3:27; Rom. 4:15; 2 Cor. 3:9; Gal. 2:16; Gal. 3:21; Col. 2:14.
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and on that authority taught the Law was abrogated, abolished, done away with, nailed to a cross; it was against us, etc. This same Paul said Jews are released from the Law and if they follow Christ instead, He has set them free from the Law which is death and bondage. (Same lie Satan told Eve). Romans 14:21;1 Corinthians 8:4-13; 1 Cor. 10:19-29; 1 Tim 4:4.
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and on that authority taught all foods were pure, including meat sacrificed to idols.(Dividing the sheepfold for slaughter).
"He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the CHURCHES." (repeated words of Christ at least 8 times in Revelation). The Church at Ephesus had tested those who say they are apostles and found them to be liars. Some of the other churches had participated in 'food sacrificed to idols and fornication.' This can be literal or spiritual. Either way, it's against God and His Holiness, against what the Holy Spirit taught through Jesus and the 12 apostles who had the 'revelation of the mystery.' Those who disobeyed are participating in demon worship. It's not surprising then, to learn that every attribute of Satan is found in ONE man, the Benjamite Wolf Man, the 'Wolf in Sheep's clothing.'

The "simplelogic" here seems to be that you merely want a cheap platform to preach your fundamentalist drivel.

 

[sojourner]

Except his Law is perfect and unchanging

Apparently not...

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree that Paul's logic is compatible with Orthodox (Pharisaic) thought. Paul was, in fact, a Pharisee his whole life. Yeshua hated the doctrines of the Pharisees and he said so over and over.

Ok so it actually seems now from reading other posts that you knowingly are going against traditional Judaic belief and yet still propose the strict adherence to written Torah, in which case I think I'm out of this discussion, because that is neither correct Judaism or correct Xianity.

 

[Simplelogic]

Apparently not...

7The law (Torah) of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Psalm 19:7

 

[Simplelogic]

Ok so it actually seems now from reading other posts that you knowingly are going against traditional Judaic belief and yet still propose the strict adherence to written Torah, in which case I think I'm out of this discussion, because that is neither correct Judaism or correct Xianity.

I love how every here keeps pretending they can speak for Jew's or Judaism by parroting Orthodox opinions of the oral Torah which goes all the way back to Moses. Just because you guys are going on website like judiasm101 does not mean you know anything about Judaism. The oral Torah was rejected by many sects of Judaism so to make claims like it is not "correct Judaism" can only mean you are basing your concept of Judaism on merely Orthodox concepts.

 

[Simplelogic]

The "simplelogic" here seems to be that you merely want a cheap platform to preach your fundamentalist drivel.

Last ditch effort to discredit someone who is running circles around 5 different people at once. Why not counter my argument?