The Trinity

[Jensen]

Adonai is Hebrew and used only in the Old Testament. The NT was written in Greek and is where Jesus was born and written about. Since the old testament was in Hebrew and the NT in Greek I dont see how Adonai would ever come up in Greek? Give me a Greek Equivalent that you might be looking for... Since the NT is Greek, what Greek word would you like to see used of Jesus to show him as God?

In Love

I never said that Adonai or Adoni are found in the NT. I don't know where you got that from.

Neither did I say that I was seeking a Greek equivalent. That was brought up by you.

I was showing that Jesus is not God by explaining the difference between Adonai and Adoni, the first is used for God, the second used only for Jesus and others of importance, but never for God. Therefore, Jesus is not God. That only is what I was trying to convey.

Also, I am not, and never was, looking for a Greek word that is used to show that Jesus is God, being that I do not believe that he is God. God bless...

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

Well, from my perspective, Jesus the man is just that, a man, except He was born of the Spirit. in this sense, Yeshua is G-ds Son, yet also Scripture refers to Jesus as G-d. That indicates to me that Yeshua through the Spirit is a representation of G-d, thereby implying no contradiction.
The Scripture indicating Jesus as G-ds Son in Heaven indicate to me that there is a Jesus the G-d.

Actually, I did notice a possibility of Jesus as G-d in Heaven, only, being a possible interpretation, but I'm sticking to standard interpretation here.

I agree that Jesus was and still is according to Timothy a man. And that he is God's Son. As for referring to Jesus as god, the bible also refers to men as gods, and this does not necessarily mean that Jesus is being called God, just as neither are men being referred to as God when called god. The bible says many are called god....god meaning mighty ones.

I agree that Jesus is representative of God, His image, but this does not mean he is God, the one he is an image of. The mirror on the wall is not me although it has an image of me when standing in front of it. Also, no where in the bible is there the phrase Jesus the God .

Jensen

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree that Jesus was and still is according to Timothy a man. And that he is God's Son. As for referring to Jesus as god, the bible also refers to men as gods, and this does not necessarily mean that Jesus is being called God, just as neither are men being referred to as God when called god. The bible says many are called god....god meaning mighty ones.

I agree that Jesus is representative of God, His image, but this does not mean he is God, the one he is an image of. The mirror on the wall is not me although it has an image of me when standing in front of it. Also, no where in the bible is there the phrase Jesus the God .

Jensen

There doesn't have to be that specific phraseology, men are not gods, Satan is not a god, but when Jesus is referred to as G-d, there isn't any indication as far as I can tell that we aren't supposed to take that literally. I don't presently have examples, but I've read a few, and from the wording it seems to be clearly identifying a Jesus the G-d.
This is open for argument, but once we read the verses in context, it seems to me that to think it is some sort sort of "title" isn't the logical conclusion.
That's why, although I think Jesus the man is just that, a man, (With Spirit), there is also a Jesus the G-d.

 

[Jensen]

We can all be like the thief on the cross who didnt know allot about who Jesus really was, but my main concern are for those that would look to the very Image of God and say, "NOT God". That is what i say is very dangerous.

What is very dangerous is calling Jesus, God, when he is not, as that is displacing God, the Father of Jesus, with another who is not God. That is what is dangerous. Nearly as much so as replacing God with a golden calf or any other idol. The bible calls Jesus, God's Son, and so that is what and who he is....the Son, not God Almighty, the Supreme Being.

adonai is Hebrew. Since the NT is in Greek, what Equivalent word would you like to see used of Jesus in the Greek? i would also ask, if Jesus is truly the Exact representation of the Fathers very being, why wouldnt you call him Adonai.

Ice, some of your replies read like you copied and pasted them from previous replies, the wording is so much the same.

I wouldn't call Jesus Adonai as the bible doesn't. It calls him Adoni, which is not used of God.

Even the Bible says we can call Jesus, "Jehovah our Righteousness" at Jer 23:6, so i see no problem calling Jesus by his Family name. (Inherited or always his)

The meaning of my name is God's gift, or Jehovah's gift, or Yahweh's Gift. That doesn't mean I can be called God, or Jehovah or Yahweh. Names had meanings, well not so much today being that so many names are made up. And so being that Jesus can mean Jehovah our Righteous does not mean that Jesus is God, but that is a meaning of the name Jesus. A more accurate name for Jesus would be Joshua, and there are many Joshuas in the bible and they are not God because of having this meaning of their name.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

Let me ask you this, what verse made you think that the one God was one being, one person, one individual ?

You know, that was over 4 decades ago so I would not know. I don't think it was just one verse, but the bible itself, many verses.

My second question would be, how many creators are there? was God alone and created by himself?In Love

I think I've answered this before......but will posts some verses and you decide.

Isaiah 45:12 - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Isaiah 40:26 - Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.

Genesis 2:19 - And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.


Isaiah 45:18 - For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Isaiah 43:15 - I [am] the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Genesis 2:4 - These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 2:1 - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

 

[Jensen]

Lol no it's o.k. I think Jesus the man isn't G-d. That's why He was born of the Spirit.
Pretty sure we agree there.
I likewise think there is a Jesus the G-d, if there wasn't, why the numerous reference to such, I disagree with the idea that it is 'metaphorical' or such terminology, that is blasphemous by all Biblical standards imo.
I think with translation redactions we have a false implication of 'men' being referred to as G-d.

Biblical 'god' is like our usage, it's a title. It is used metaphorically for Satan, even. However we know that the Bible is not saying these are The G-d, the Creator G-d.

I think that Jesus is not God, not just Jesus the man, but Jesus himself is not God; man and spirit. The word god is used to mean mighty ones, it is a title, and so is used to refer to others but usually with a small g. A capital G is used for referring to God the creator. And so I do not believe that Jesus is referred to as god, with a capital G, or as G-d. This of course is my view....it is how I see the bible, and all its reference referring to Jesus.

Jensen:flower:

 

[Jensen]

Shalom Jensen, thank you for the welcome. When I stated that Yahweh/Yeshua emptied Himself, I was referring to Phil 2:7 where Paul states the Greek word:

G2758 (kenoo), to make empty

This making Himself EMPTY, was referring to Him being the I AM (Yahweh). Yeshua was "I AM"-Yahweh even before Abraham:


Jn 8:58-59
58 Yeshua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

And this is why they took up stones to stone Him, because He was claiming to be Yahweh. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

He emptied himself of his own free will to do the will of God his Father. Actually there isn't much change really between humbled and emptied in the context. I do not think that he is saying that he emptied himself of being God,Yahweh the "I AM" but his own will to do God's will, to complete God's mission for mankind.

If he was claiming to be God, then why did he contradict what he says at John 17:3? " And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." ?? And also these are verses say differently also.




1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (English-NIV)
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God…

Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.


It can't get more obvious that Jesus is not God.

I do not see how anyone could reason away this fact.
Jesus is not God.



Jensen:flower2:

 

[Jensen]

Shalom disciple, Yeshua IS the restored Yahweh Elohim, but as he walked this earth 2000 years ago, he was ONLY a man, who was given a FULL measure of the Spirit. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Is there a verse or verses that says that Yahweh Elohim was restored or needed to be restored? Whatever that means....

To be restored hints at being less than perfect. I think. Don't you? :coffee2:

 

[Jensen]

Something to add to the debate, I don't see an apparent contradiction between 'oneness',(my position), and trinitarianism. I wonder if I'm not understanding the trinity concept in how it is believed.

There is a difference..

The trinity says that God is One that is made up of three persons, each separate, and none of them the other.

Oneness is the belief that God is one being, one person, not three, who presents himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not three within one God. But one whose name is Jesus.

Oneness one who is called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


The trinity is One God made up of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit .

 

[Desert Snake]

There is a difference..

The trinity says that God is One that is made up of three persons, each separate, and none of them the other.

Oneness is the belief that God is one being, one person, not three, who presents himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not three within one God. But one whose name is Jesus.

Oneness one who is called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


The trinity is One God made up of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit .

hmm I see, thanks. I'm not a Trinitarian then.

 

[Jensen]

Well that is my simplified version, but I think about explains it.
What do you consider yourself?
As you know, I'm sure, I am unitarian.
And I love knowing my unitarian God Yahweh.
My one God

:yes:

 

[Desert Snake]

Well that is my simplified version, but I think about explains it.
What do you consider yourself?
As you know, I'm sure, I am unitarian.
And I love knowing my unitarian God Yahweh.
My one God

:yes:

I worship G-d /JHVH

I think to worship Jesus in any form is appropriate.

 

[Jensen]

I worship G-d /JHVH

I think to worship Jesus in any form is appropriate.

That is where we are different.
I think one should worship only God, YHWH, YHVH, JHVH, Yahweh, Jehovah....
I think one should honor Jesus...
But that it is inappropriate to worship Jesus as God.:canoe:

 

[Desert Snake]

That is where we are different.
I think one should worship only God, YHWH, YHVH, JHVH, Yahweh, Jehovah....
I think one should honor Jesus...
But that it is inappropriate to worship Jesus as God.:canoe:

I think it's appropriate to worship Jesus as God. Same Godhead.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There is a difference..

The trinity says that God is One that is made up of three persons, each separate, and none of them the other.

Oneness is the belief that God is one being, one person, not three, who presents himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not three within one God. But one whose name is Jesus.

Oneness one who is called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


The trinity is One God made up of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit .

The three Persons are one in Their unity and Essence.

 

[icebuddy]

That is where we are different.
I think one should worship only God, YHWH, YHVH, JHVH, Yahweh, Jehovah....
I think one should honor Jesus...
But that it is inappropriate to worship Jesus as God.

i have a little time today and im working bacwards... last post 1St...

Anyways, as a Trinitarian we also believe one should worship only God, YHWH, Jehovah as well. We also believe Jesus is YHWH Jehovah. We believe that God really did save us himself, not creating a being to do so in his place. Let me ask you a question: Do you believe John who wrote Revelation worshipped Jesus?

There is a difference..

The trinity says that God is One that is made up of three persons, each separate, and none of them the other.
Oneness is the belief that God is one being, one person, not three, who presents himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not three within one God. But one whose name is Jesus.
Oneness

one who is called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The trinity is One God made up of three persons, Father

, Son

, and Holy Spirit

.

Sometimes its very hard to know the difference between a Trinitarian and a Oneness Pent. One thing we must all agree upon, is that we are trying to explain our creator and this might be something of the realms of impossible to know 100%. As for your explaination of the Trinity, I would tweak it a bit…
The trinity says that God is One that revealed himself through three persons(Father, Son, HS), each separate, and none of them the other. Not multiple Gods, but one Body of God that is united as our One God. All Eternal and Uncreated and our Creator.

Is there a verse or verses that says that Yahweh Elohim was restored or needed to be restored? Whatever that means....
To be restored hints at being less than perfect. I think. Don't you?

I think that one of the biggest problems between Trinitarians and Anti-Trinitarians bounces around this question. Can God in some fashion take a part of his being or essence and make it into a man and experience his own creation 1st hand as a servant or must he create someone to do this for him…
We also all think of the word God in so many different fashions today. Is God a title that can be swapped or is it the very Essence of what makes God God… For example, Trinitarians believe Jesus carries this essence that makes God God and is also God himself, yet clothed with human flesh for a little while and raised to honor as a man that not only was once God, but also holds to this essence of God. That is why we hear the term God Man in Trinitarian language. So the million dollar question is: Can God do all of this himself, relying upon only himself to save his creation or must he rely upon a created being to be faithful? Are we saved by God alone or God and a created being is the underline issue…
I would also like to add 2 questions that no one (Anti-Trinitarians) has really attempted to answer
Was Jesus born twice and was Jesus given Glory Twice? Please explain
Out of Time and I only got back to a few posts that where not even directed to me…. Go Figure

 

[Muffled]

All who believe in the bible believe that it tells the truth, including JW...it is that all do not always understand all of the truth that is in the bible. This would mean everyone some of the time, not just JW.

I believe the JW's excel in mistranslations.

 

[Muffled]

Here is some verses that say Jesus has a God and Father. You don't need to believe me, believe what the bible says...

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (English-NIV)
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God…

Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

I don't think these verses need explanations....it is obvious to me that Jesus has a God, and so is not that God.




What do you mean by "the God of Jehovah is Jehovah ?"

I believe what you think is obvious is totally illogical. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.

I mean that Jehovah does not consider that there is any God other than Himself.

For instance if I write about my self in the third person I don't sonsider that I have created a new self. The person to whom I am referring is me.

 

[Muffled]

So, what I infer is that there is "Jesus the G-d", and "Jesus the man". I don't really think it is some 'mix' of deity. There are too many references to Jesus AS G-d to infer that.
Just my opinion.

I.e.
Jesus the G-d

Jesus the man
Jesus the man is a reflection of Jesus the G-d.

I don't believe that. I believe Jesus is one person incorporating the flesh and The Spirit of God.

How could that be? I believe the flesh does not reflect God at all and the Spirit is God and not a reflection.

 

[Desert Snake]

I don't believe that. I believe Jesus is one person incorporating the flesh and The Spirit of God.

How could that be? I believe the flesh does not reflect God at all and the Spirit is God and not a reflection.

Jesus the man is part man. That is why, in human form He can pray to the Father, etc. Jesus the God is all god i.e. JHVH, they are one, as is the Spirit is one in the Godhead.

The flesh is not the reflection of God, well it ls, but not only. The Spirit is the reflection of God.

The Godhead is God in totality of His forms, it is one Deity.