The Third Day (for Christians).

[Mycroft]

So the bible alleges that Jesus made a sacrifice for our sins by dying on the cross. It then says that on the third day he rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.

My question is this: Where's the sacrifice?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So the bible alleges that Jesus made a sacrifice for our sins by dying on the cross. It then says that on the third day he rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.

My question is this: Where's the sacrifice?

Sorry I'm not a Christian, but I just wanted to say that I always assumed all of the pain he went through would've been considered a sacrifice.

Another thing: He surrendered himself to law, he could've easily ran off, but he gave himself up to them. That would count as a sacrifice, would it not?

 

[Mycroft]

Sorry I'm not a Christian, but I just wanted to say that I always assumed all of the pain he went through would've been considered a sacrifice.

That's not a sacrifice.

sacrifice
ˈsakrɪfʌɪs/
noun
noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices

1. 2.
   give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations.
   
   
   

   Another thing: He surrendered himself to law, he could've easily ran off, but he gave himself up to them. That would count as a sacrifice, would it not?

   He knew it was coming (being that he's part of the trinity). But again, that's not really a sacrifice, is it? That's just, well, surrender. Nobody worships the French for their sacrifice? :

 

[savagewind]

Judaism 101: Qorbanot: Sacrifices and Offerings

Did the kohanim (priests) or anybody else eat the animals offered?
Yes! Most types of offerings could be eaten. Certain types were eaten by the kohanim only, or by a specific kohein. Other types were eaten by the person offering the sacrifice and his family. The types of offerings and who was permitted to eat them will be discussed further below.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. John 6:56

So he is a sacrifice as now we are able to "eat". Does anyone suppose that he would have said it if he was alive? I don't.

 

[Mycroft]

Judaism 101: Qorbanot: Sacrifices and Offerings

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. John 6:56

Sounds horrific. This is why I never did communion even as a Christian.

So he is a sacrifice as now we are able to "eat". Does anyone suppose that he would have said it if he was alive? I don't.

You still have not successfully demonstrated where the sacrifice is. You've simply tried to sidestep the subject by inserting a bunch of meaningless rhetoric.

 

[Sleeppy]

Sounds horrific. This is why I never did communion even as a Christian.



You still have not successfully demonstrated where the sacrifice is. You've simply tried to sidestep the subject by inserting a bunch of meaningless rhetoric.

That was the most successful demonstration you could get, assuming you've meditated and sharpened whatever preconceived notions you had.

The language is meaningless at this point. If you've read the New Testament, being a former Christian, and did not see anything you could refer to as a sacrifice, then so be it. What does it matter?


John 15:3
Greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends.


Not only is it an obvious sacrifice of an Earthly life, which included friends and family, it was an obvious sacrifice for His followers (all generations), as well, losing their Lord/King/Rabbi/Friend/Brother/Son.

 

[Sees]

Something I considered myself when I was a Christan. Also the need for blood sacrifice, especially a human blood sacrifice, didn't blend well with love, forgiveness, etc. And if it was god doing it for himself in an avatar body- it makes even less sense.

 

[Thana]

So being tortured, Crucified and going to hell is not a sacrifice to you?
Jesus wasn't omnipotent or omniscient when he was on earth, Obviously.

 

[Sees]

Unless we agree with the Original Sin concept being logical, what does it accomplish for Jesus to give himself up for death?

Being former military, I think of several stories where a man sacrificed himself to really save a group of others. What good would Jesus' death do if Original Sin and appealing to god with blood sacrifice do not truly matter?

 

[savagewind]

Sounds horrific. This is why I never did communion even as a Christian.



You still have not successfully demonstrated where the sacrifice is. You've simply tried to sidestep the subject by inserting a bunch of meaningless rhetoric.

OK. I learned never to argue another one's perspective.

He had to die (sacrifice) so that others could eat.

Is your point that he would have died anyway, he being human? What is your point?

 

[nazz]

So the bible alleges that Jesus made a sacrifice for our sins by dying on the cross. It then says that on the third day he rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven.

My question is this: Where's the sacrifice?

The sacrifice was coming to earth in the first place on a suicide mission. Having to suffer earthly existence and a cruel and painful death.

 

[Mycroft]

Unless we agree with the Original Sin concept being logical, what does it accomplish for Jesus to give himself up for death?

Being former military, I think of several stories where a man sacrificed himself to really save a group of others. What good would Jesus' death do if Original Sin and appealing to god with blood sacrifice do not truly matter?

It's somewhat paradoxical I agree. Jesus died for our sins....but his having died means everyone is born in sin.

 

[Mycroft]

So being tortured, Crucified and going to hell is not a sacrifice to you?
Jesus wasn't omnipotent or omniscient when he was on earth, Obviously.

No it's not. He knew he was the Messiah (according to Christian Mythology) and knew that when he died he'd ascend into Heaven. Sacrificing an earthly existence in and rising into heaven isn't exactly a sacrifice. No matter the methodology.

Now if he had just died. Then that would have been a sacrifice. But he didn't, did he? Christians claim he lives still. So it can't be a sacrifice in the true sense of the word if he's 'sort of dead but actually still alive in heaven'.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

That's not a sacrifice.

sacrifice
ˈsakrɪfʌɪs/
noun
noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices

1. 2.
   give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations.

1. 
   
   Doesn't that include giving up pleasure (at least temporarily)?
   
   
   

   He knew it was coming (being that he's part of the trinity). But again, that's not really a sacrifice, is it? That's just, well, surrender. Nobody worships the French for their sacrifice? :

He definitely knew it was coming; just before Judas betrayed him, he prayed to God, "If there is any way, please let this cup pass from my lips, but your will be done father."

He accepted his fate (very stoic if you think about it). I think that would be considered sacrificing his will, anyone probably would've preferred not to get caught, but he stuck to following God's will instead of his own, correct?

 

[Mycroft]

Doesn't that include giving up pleasure (at least temporarily)?

For three whole days? Big deal. Hardly inspires me to 'love' the guy.

He definitely knew it was coming; just before Judas betrayed him, he prayed to God, "If there is any way, please let this cup pass from my lips, but your will be done father."

He accepted his fate (very stoic if you think about it). I think that would be considered sacrificing his will, anyone probably would've preferred not to get caught, but he stuck to following God's will instead of his own, correct?

So he's a martyr. But again, there was no true sacrifice involved in the scheme of things. He didn't die, he's alive. He underwent a transition (at best) from the physical to the supernatural in, admittedly, a very uncomfortable fashion, but there was no dying involved per se, and so no sacrifice.

Also, why did Jesus insult God's intelligence when he was on the cross?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

For three whole days? Big deal. Hardly inspires me to 'love' the guy.

But then again, the pain he endured was quite a bit, I think if someone were to take such a beating, to allow people whip pores into your skin and then hang your body up with nails to let the blood drip out, is quite a bit of a sacrifice of pleasure if you ask me. Although it was only temporary pain (loss of pleasure), it was still quite a bit.

Although, for those that believe Jesus' spirit was ascended and not his physical body, you could say he sacrificed his physical life, but I suppose an incarnation cannot really do that if there's always a chance (and according to some Christians, a guarantee) that you'd be plugged back into the matrix.

So he's a martyr. But again, there was no true sacrifice involved in the scheme of things. He didn't die, he's alive. He underwent a transition (at best) from the physical to the supernatural in, admittedly, a very uncomfortable fashion, but there was no dying involved per se, and so no sacrifice.

Also, why did Jesus insult God's intelligence when he was on the cross?

I think you could say the same thing for just about anyone who have sacrificed their lives if you were to hold a belief in the afterlife, the only life that someone would be able to sacrifice is their earthly life, but you cannot possibly sacrifice an entire life (again, that is only if there is a life of an individual after death).

 

[EtuMalku]

Another epic fail . . . if Yeshua the Nazarene died for our Sins . . . then why are we all born into Sin?

 

[Mycroft]

But then again, the pain he endured was quite a bit, I think if someone were to take such a beating, to allow people whip pores into your skin and then hang your body up with nails to let the blood drip out, is quite a bit of a sacrifice of pleasure if you ask me. Although it was only temporary pain (loss of pleasure), it was still quite a bit.

So was the pain of all of the people god murdered in the preceding years. Still not a sacrifice, though, is it?

Although, for those that believe Jesus' spirit was ascended and not his physical body, you could say he sacrificed his physical life, but I suppose an incarnation cannot really do that if there's always a chance (and according to some Christians, a guarantee) that you'd be plugged back into the matrix.

Oh big deal. If you were about to ascend into heaven (with all due certainty) do you really reckon you'd rue the loss of your physical self? Most Christians appear to be waiting for the day when their physical forms will go the way of the 70's and zoom off up to Heaven. Still not a sacrifice.

I think you could say the same thing for just about anyone who have sacrificed their lives if you were to hold a belief in the afterlife, the only life that someone would be able to sacrifice is their earthly life, but you cannot possibly sacrifice an entire life (again, that is only if there is a life of an individual after death).

Right. But there's still no real sacrifice. Other 'sacrifices' tend to lack the 'certainty' led to jesus' ascension to heaven as supplied by the bible. Those other people also had no foreknowledge.

 

[Mycroft]

Also, another open question to Christians:

Why did jesus insult god's intelligence on the cross?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So was the pain of all of the people god murdered in the preceding years. Still not a sacrifice, though, is it?

No, because their pain didn't really take effect on anything.

Oh big deal. If you were about to ascend into heaven (with all due certainty) do you really reckon you'd rue the loss of your physical self? Most Christians appear to be waiting for the day when their physical forms will go the way of the 70's and zoom off up to Heaven. Still not a sacrifice.

Why not? This is not to say that earthly life is not something you enjoy itself. Jesus had a family, he had a life. Sure, heaven was there to catch him from his fall, but keep in mind that he still fell, he still lost something valuable. Just because you regain something in the end does not mean you didn't lose anything. In fact, most sacrifices are made in order to get something back.