Jesus as a creation

[Muffled]

I ws have a discussion with my JW brother-in-law about this passage:

Col 1:13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

He said it meant that Jesus was the first created being before the actual physical body so he meant that the spirit in Jesus was the first created spirit.

I believe the text does not support this nor is there any other text that does but I never understood this verse until yesterday.

I believe it means out of all created physical beings that Jesus is the first creation to be born. Adam and Eve were created but never born. I say a physical being because only a physical being can be born.

Also it comes to mind that there is church dogma saying that Jesus was not created but I believe that is not the case. The physical part was a combination of a female egg which is natural but the male part had to be created. However the Spirit of God that is in Jesus is uncreated.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I wonder if Jesus only had 23 chromosomes...

 

[Pegg]

I ws have a discussion with my JW brother-in-law about this passage:

Col 1:13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

He said it meant that Jesus was the first created being before the actual physical body so he meant that the spirit in Jesus was the first created spirit.

I believe the text does not support this nor is there any other text that does but I never understood this verse until yesterday.

I believe it means out of all created physical beings that Jesus is the first creation to be born. Adam and Eve were created but never born. I say a physical being because only a physical being can be born.

Also it comes to mind that there is church dogma saying that Jesus was not created but I believe that is not the case. The physical part was a combination of a female egg which is natural but the male part had to be created. However the Spirit of God that is in Jesus is uncreated.

Our view is that Jesus had a pre-human existence. He was the first of Gods creations in heaven. The very first spirit person or Angel God created.

And its interesting to read Proverbs 8 because that describes someone who was Gods first creation.

Vs22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. 32*“And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways. 33*Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34*Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances. 35*For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Our view is that Jesus had a pre-human existence. He was the first of Gods creations in heaven. The very first spirit person or Angel God created.

And its interesting to read Proverbs 8 because that describes someone who was Gods first creation.

Vs22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. 32*“And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways. 33*Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34*Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances. 35*For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah.

It's talking about Wisdom.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I ws have a discussion with my JW brother-in-law about this passage:

Col 1:13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

He said it meant that Jesus was the first created being before the actual physical body so he meant that the spirit in Jesus was the first created spirit.

I believe the text does not support this nor is there any other text that does but I never understood this verse until yesterday.

I believe it means out of all created physical beings that Jesus is the first creation to be born. Adam and Eve were created but never born. I say a physical being because only a physical being can be born.

Also it comes to mind that there is church dogma saying that Jesus was not created but I believe that is not the case. The physical part was a combination of a female egg which is natural but the male part had to be created. However the Spirit of God that is in Jesus is uncreated.

This "firstborn of all creation" is a reference to the resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus is the first of all creation to be resurrected - well, at least the first Son of God to be resurrected, opening up the way for all creation to be renewed in the same manner.

This conventional interpretation is found everywhere online if you Google: Jesus firstborn creation resurrection. I suggest both Google and Google Books searches for authoritative commentaries.

 

[Pegg]

It's talking about Wisdom.

yes i know many people view it as a quality of God but that is not how we understand it.

We view it to be speaking about an individual who was with God and actually helped with the creation of all things.

If it really is Gods quality of wisdom, how could it be that this quality was 'created'? Shouldnt such a quality be intrinsic to Gods very nature and being? The bible never says that God created his 'love'.... if it did then it implies that there was a time when it didnt exist. And if Gods wisdom didnt exist at some point, then how could God have had the wisdom needed to create it in the first place???

it just doesnt make sense to view these verses are one of Gods qualities.

 

[InChrist]

yes i know many people view it as a quality of God but that is not how we understand it.

We view it to be speaking about an individual who was with God and actually helped with the creation of all things.

If it really is Gods quality of wisdom, how could it be that this quality was 'created'? Shouldnt such a quality be intrinsic to Gods very nature and being? The bible never says that God created his 'love'.... if it did then it implies that there was a time when it didnt exist. And if Gods wisdom didnt exist at some point, then how could God have had the wisdom needed to create it in the first place???

it just doesnt make sense to view these verses are one of Gods qualities.

Actually the text does not say it (wisdom) was created, but brought forth and used in the creation process and clearly says in reference to wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 ... “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting ...showing that wisdom is an intrinsic aspect of God's eternal nature and being.

 

[Pegg]

Actually the text does not say it (wisdom) was created, but brought forth and used in the creation process and clearly says in reference to wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 ... “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting ...showing that wisdom is an intrinsic aspect of God's eternal nature and being.

Im sure those who use the king james version bible are probably correct to say that it is speaking of 'wisdom' and that it was not created based on that translation. But that is only because the kingJames version is translated from a Latin manuscript which erroneously translated the hebrew word qa.na'ni as 'possessed' instead of 'produced'

NWT
Prov 8:22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.

KJV
Prov 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

the Hebrew word is qa.na'ni and it means “Produced me.” In Greek it is translated e′kti·sen′ me meaning “created me”
But the Latin manuscripts use the word pos·se′dit me meaning “possessed me.” Why they translated it like that is probably because at that time, they thought the greek scriptures were originally written in 'classical' greek.... it wasnt until later centuries scholars discovered 'koine' greek. So probably 'possessed' was the correct word to use with the little knowledge they had in the 15th century. But with the discovery of Koine, it is correctly translated as 'created'


Im sure you know that 'possessed' and 'created' convey two very different ideas.

Which word do you think we should be using?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

yes i know many people view it as a quality of God but that is not how we understand it.

We view it to be speaking about an individual who was with God and actually helped with the creation of all things.

If it really is Gods quality of wisdom, how could it be that this quality was 'created'? Shouldnt such a quality be intrinsic to Gods very nature and being? The bible never says that God created his 'love'.... if it did then it implies that there was a time when it didnt exist. And if Gods wisdom didnt exist at some point, then how could God have had the wisdom needed to create it in the first place???

it just doesnt make sense to view these verses are one of Gods qualities.

Proverbs is not a literal telling, it can be read as the lessons of a father to a Son. The first of creation that is being spoken of is Wisdom, essentially the book of proverbs anthropomorphizes wisdom as a woman, that is what we should seek, what we should love, because Wisdom will lead us to God.

I wouldn't think too deep into it or even try to expand on it, as it sort of strips away from the book what it is trying to teach if you try to take it literally.

 

[Katzpur]

I wonder if Jesus only had 23 chromosomes...

Well, if He was "fully human," He'd have had to have 46 chromosomes, or a double strand of 23.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Col 1:13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; 14 in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Not answering your question but contributing:

Consider mentioning to your brother in law that redemption according to the book Numbers was for the first-born. Similarly James 1:18 claims that the word of truth makes christians a first fruit of all of the creation, so they become first class. They become part of the kingdom of priests mentioned in Exodus 19:6 and Revelation 1:6. (Personally I think this means they have to keep the laws, but that is not central to your conversation.) Paul calls it the household of faith in Ephesians 2:19 and temple of which Jesus is the chief cornerstone. This is means 'delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of his son' and the previous verse calls it '...hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light'.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Well, if He was "fully human," He'd have had to have 46 chromosomes, or a double strand of 23.

Well if you go by the Virgin birth...it wouldn't work...and even if it did (double strand of 23) Jesus would be female. One X Chromosome or Two X chromosomes due to the double strand of 23 to make 46.

 

[Katzpur]

Well if you go by the Virgin birth...it wouldn't work...

Well, for someone like me who actually does believe in the Virgin Birth, it would work. I believe that Mary was Jesus' actual mother and that God was Jesus' actual Father, but that the sex act was not required for His conception.

and even if it did (double strand of 23) Jesus would be female. One X Chromosome or Two X chromosomes due to the double strand of 23 to make 46.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Men and women both have two stands of 23 chomosomes.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Well, for someone like me who actually does believe in the Virgin Birth, it would work. I believe that Mary was Jesus' actual mother and that God was Jesus' actual Father, but that the sex act was not required for His conception.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Men and women both have two stands of 23 chomosomes.

Lol my bad got my genetics mixed up.

In part the 46 chromosomes are inherited from your mom and dad, some species of animals can reproduce by parthenogenesis generating only a haploid female, meaning they have 23 chromosomes.

While a sexual act is not needed for his conception, the other 23 chromosomes are necessary. Not simply because "Jesus could not exist with 23 chromosomes" but that Jesus would not be male without a Y chromosome. In early development the activation of the Y chromosome to produce testosterone doesn't occur until 9 to 12 weeks into the pregnancy. Without it you'll be a female.

Without the Y chromosome from a male, how could Jesus be born male?

 

[Katzpur]

Lol my bad got my genetics mixed up.

In part the 46 chromosomes are inherited from your mom and dad, some species of animals can reproduce by parthenogenesis generating only a haploid female, meaning they have 23 chromosomes.

While a sexual act is not needed for his conception, the other 23 chromosomes are necessary. Not simply because "Jesus could not exist with 23 chromosomes" but that Jesus would not be male without a Y chromosome. In early development the activation of the Y chromosome to produce testosterone doesn't occur until 9 to 12 weeks into the pregnancy. Without it you'll be a female.

Without the Y chromosome from a male, how could Jesus be born male?

Maybe He got the Y chromosome from His Father.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Or maybe he had 92 chromosomes instead of only 46 !

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Or maybe he had 92 chromosomes instead of only 46 !

Jesus was a plant??

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Maybe He got the Y chromosome from His Father.

I know that Mormon beliefs are different than "mainstream" Christianity, but it is rather Odd that God went through all that trouble when it would have been just as easy to manifest on earth for the Israelite's as he did for Abraham that one occasion.

 

[Katzpur]

I know that Mormon beliefs are different than "mainstream" Christianity, but it is rather Odd that God went through all that trouble when it would have been just as easy to manifest on earth for the Israelite's as he did for Abraham that one occasion.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. All what trouble?

 

[Muffled]

Our view is that Jesus had a pre-human existence. He was the first of Gods creations in heaven. The very first spirit person or Angel God created.

And its interesting to read Proverbs 8 because that describes someone who was Gods first creation.

Vs22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24*When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25*Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26*when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27*When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28*when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29*when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. 32*“And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways. 33*Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34*Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances. 35*For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah.

I believe this has no basis in fact and certainly Proverbs 8 doesn't day so.