Zionism

[I.S.L.A.M617]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

 

[1robin]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

I see you framed this very carefully. It won't matter anything and everything will be claimed under this topic. However for now that is not the reason they were given Israel. BTW Britain had control of Palestine at the time and they could have legally given it to anyone for any reason. Palestine has never been a distinct nation nor culture. Jews lived in Israel for the past few thousand years. However a portion of the Jewish homeland was given to displaced Jews because there were many of them and they needed homes. It did not matter how they got that way. In the original deal (can't remember the ratio but I think it was) less than half the land was to be for Jews and the rest for Palestinians that happen to live there already. The Jews were fine with this but the Palestinians said no Jew could come back and have a nation at all. I will get more detailed and cover more ground as needed.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

However large numbers of Jews had lived there continuously for thousands of years and most of the Jews were taken from there land forcibly to begin with. Not to mention there was more than enough land for both parties but only the Palestinians who had no legal right refused.

 

[Sha'irullah]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

A European Jew who is of Jewish descent is still a Jew. Judaism is one of the few religions that dictates ethnicity as part of acceptance.

Also Israel has historic ties to the Jews and you must really not know about the history of this land. Filistini do not have claims to this land no different then white Americans have claims to America

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

In the original deal (can't remember the ratio but I think it was) less than half the land was to be for Jews and the rest for Palestinians that happen to live there already.

If you look at a map of Israeli/Palestinian territory as of right now, I'd say the original deal went sour... I would have no problem had they kept to the spirit of their agreement, but as of now the Palestinians are on what are essentially reservations, with large gaps of Israeli territory in between them, which shuts down the building of any kind of community. Also, as more and more Jews move into Israel, these Palestinian areas are being destroyed to build new settlements and the Palestinians are moved to the other reservations in the area, which causes overcrowding and poor living conditions. I don't see how this is any different than the constructions of the ghettos during the Nazi occupation.

However large numbers of Jews had lived there continuously for thousands of years and most of the Jews were taken from there land forcibly to begin with.

I'll concede this point. There have been Jews in Palestine for thousands of years, but in my opinion they are the only ones with any rights to the land; not Europeans who happen to follow the same religion.

Not to mention there was more than enough land for both parties but only the Palestinians who had no legal right refused.

I find it disturbing to believe that the people who live, and have lived for quite some time, in a certain area have no right to defend their homes from foreign invasion. If it was decided that the Native Americans could take their land back, and the powers that be demanded that you hand over your house, would you do it voluntarily and without fuss?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

A European Jew who is of Jewish descent is still a Jew. Judaism is one of the few religions that dictates ethnicity as part of acceptance.

If that were true then Jewish converts would not be allowed to live in Israel, but that is not the case.

Also Israel has historic ties to the Jews and you must really not know about the history of this land. Filistini do not have claims to this land no different then white Americans have claims to America

I am very familiar with the history of Israel; it was a large part of my college studies. Technically speaking, if you want to go that far back in history, the land still does not belong to the Jews, who took it from the Canaanites. It's not the conquering of the country that bothers me; lands get conquered all the time, it's the pretentious claim that you have a right to conquer a certain land that rubs me the wrong way.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

 

[Sha'irullah]

Go back further then 1946. Also trace what Palestine is and you should take note that the word Palestine does not exist because it is Filistine (hint hint).

The usage of the fa/ف is evident as it is the first letter of the word Filistine/فلسطين‎ which the Greek pronunciation is Palestine. Once you learn the basics of Arabic you can easily poke holes int he claims by the Filistini people followed by the fact they are of Jordanians descent and this applies on a genetic level as well. Ethnicallyt hey are Jordanian which makes great sense considering their origin. None of Israel belongs to them.

They do not care about rightful land just the spread of Islam and the nurturing of old wounds from the previous Khalifah. I feel bad for the Filistini lives taken at the hands of Jews in Israel but I do not feel bad for them when they assert that what was stolen belongs to them.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Go back further then 1946. Also trace what Palestine is and you should take note that the word Palestine does not exist because it is Filistine (hint hint).

The usage of the fa/ف is evident as it is the first letter of the word Filistine/فلسطين‎ which the Greek pronunciation is Palestine. Once you learn the basics of Arabic you can easily poke holes int he claims by the Filistini people followed by the fact they are of Jordanians descent and this applies on a genetic level as well. Ethnicallyt hey are Jordanian which makes great sense considering their origin. None of Israel belongs to them

Again, I'm aware that the Philistines conquered Palestine, (or Filistine). As far as I know there was no claim to have some sort of right to the land when they did. It's like the difference between someone robbing you for your shoes because they thought they were nice shoes, and somebody telling you "Why are you wearing my shoes?! I was born to wear those shoes!"

 

[Sha'irullah]

Every map I see never addresses the fact that during the Caliphate Israel was subjugated by the empire and that Arabs mingled in the land. The very structure callwd al-Masjid Qub'bat As-Sakh'rah is a result of this empire.

If Greeks subjugated the lands around them would this not mean the land belongs to the Greeks? Wouldn't Greeks mingle in these communities?

Do you also find it ironic that the original Qiblah (direction of prayer) was in Jerusalem? Muhammad was kicked out I should mentioned. No argument you make can validate Filistini existence in Israel as it has and always will be Israel. Filistini have no claim to the land because they stole it during the Caliphate or the Islamic empire and part of Islam is rooted in Israel as it tried taking from the Jews what belonged to them.

Your entire history is inaccurate because you refuse to go back further

 

[Sha'irullah]

Again, I'm aware that the Philistines conquered Palestine, (or Filistine). As far as I know there was no claim to have some sort of right to the land when they did. It's like the difference between someone robbing you for your shoes because they thought they were nice shoes, and somebody telling you "Why are you wearing my shoes?! I was born to wear those shoes!"

Palestine is just a word used to designated the rough area of Israel along with the bordering areas of Syria and Jordan. It is not an actual country but a territory then goes beyond Israel.
If Filistine is a country then Siberia is a nation

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

No argument you make can validate Filistini existence in Israel as it has and always will be Israel. Filistini have no claim to the land because they stole it during the Caliphate or the Islamic empire and part of Islam is rooted in Israel as it tried taking from the Jews what belonged to them.

Again, I am aware that this happened; I studied the history of Israel in school. The Arabs fairly captured the land in a hard-fought battle. After that, it ceased to be the property of the people living there, in the same way that the US no longer belongs to the Native Americans. When this battle was going on, there was no claim from the Caliphate that Israel was the rightful property of the Arabs by birthright; they took the land because they wanted it. I would have more respect for the current state of Israel if this was the case, but they pretentiously claim to have an inalienable right to this land, which is simply not true. The Earth belongs to everybody, and any land is open for conquer by anybody. Again, you steal somebody's shoes because they're nice shoes and you want them, not because they're you're shoes by right.

 

[Ashoka]

Against it.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Again, I am aware that this happened; I studied the history of Israel in school. The Arabs fairly captured the land in a hard-fought battle. After that, it ceased to be the property of the people living there, in the same way that the US no longer belongs to the Native Americans. When this battle was going on, there was no claim from the Caliphate that Israel was the rightful property of the Arabs by birthright; they took the land because they wanted it. I would have more respect for the current state of Israel if this was the case, but they pretentiously claim to have an inalienable right to this land, which is simply not true. The Earth belongs to everybody, and any land is open for conquer by anybody. Again, you steal somebody's shoes because they're nice shoes and you want them, not because they're you're shoes by right.

SO you are justifying theft? :areyoucra. This is the most bizarre excuse I have heard to justify the Filistini occupation of Jewish land. Filistini are not like Native Americans who have had their land stolen, they are like the Americans. Unlike the Americans Filistinians know where their land is and should promptly return to it which many have I may add (). But this only goes to show the absolute evil being espoused by Muslims to propagate their ideology.
You must have learned some highly bias information at school as well.

I never stated also that the Arabs claimed Israel by birthrate I said they claimed it by religious right.

Filistinians know Israel does not belong to them. Israel should not compromise the land and the Filistinians have a right to exist in Israel but they do not have the right to claim it. You know how Muslims behave int he central Ummah and this is undeniable.
Africans and other races live in America all the time and they come from foreign origin but they accept the law of the land and do not claim any part of it as their own. The same should be down by the Filistinians and Jews should stop badgering them for their destruction.

Either assimilate or move out.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Against it.

What part of it?

You are against the rights of the Jewish people? Zionism is almost the default position in Judaism with the only difference being that Zionism is the conglomeration of views combined with current political upheaval and social disorder.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

SO you are justifying theft? :areyoucra. This is the most bizarre excuse I have heard to justify the Filistini occupation of Jewish land. Filistini are not like Native Americans who have had their land stolen, they are like the Americans.

I'm not justifying theft, I'm saying once you've stolen something it is now yours. I didn't say the Palestinians are like the Native Americans, and agree that they are like the current Americans. But again I'll use this analogy: If some authority had decided to give the Native Americans control of the United States again, and I was told to evacuate my home, I would take up arms and fight the Native Americans whether it was their land originally or not. The simple fact remains, that's MY house now. In my opinion, the Native Americans no longer have a right to this land because it has been conquered. To come back and say by right of blood that I should give up my house without a struggle is ridiculous...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You must have learned some highly bias information at school as well.

I was taught the history of Israel objectively, not what to think about it. My opinions are my own and not given to me by my schooling.

Africans and other races live in America all the time and they come from foreign origin but they accept the law of the land and do not claim any part of it as their own. The same should be down by the Filistinians and Jews should stop badgering them for their destruction.

I agree but the other way around. If Jews want to move into Palestine because they have religious ties to the land, they should be able to, just as anyone can move to the US. But to claim the land is theirs by right and rename it is plain stupid, and they should be the ones assimilating.

 

[Assad91]

So Jordainians supposedly move into Palestin..... centuries ago, and then the Jews can just come centuries later and kick them out of their homes? Makes sense.

Hey Sterling Archer, my great great great gandpappy lived on the land you claim now. Get out.

 

[Sha'irullah]

So Jordainians supposedly move into Palestin..... centuries ago, and then the Jews can just come centuries later and kick them out of their homes? Makes sense.

Hey Sterling Archer, my great great great gandpappy lived on the land you claim now. Get out.

I never said kick them out. I said assimilate meaning to live in Israel. You have a persistent habit of not wanting to read.

If you grandfather was native American then I regret to inform you I have no choice as my ancestors were brought onto the land now as slaves

 

[Flankerl]

opcorn:

 

[Sha'irullah]

I was taught the history of Israel objectively, not what to think about it. My opinions are my own and not given to me by my schooling.



I agree but the other way around. If Jews want to move into Palestine because they have religious ties to the land, they should be able to, just as anyone can move to the US. But to claim the land is theirs by right and rename it is plain stupid, and they should be the ones assimilating.

Native Americans did not have countries either but it was still their land. Jews did not invade on Filistinian land and this is fact. The general area called Israel has always been the area the Jews occupied and considering the Filistinians are already Jordanian then how can their natural territory be another?

Your history is heavily misconstrued to the point of major fallacy.

You said there be a Filistine yet the Filistinians claim the land by right just like the Jews so you are being a hypocrite saying the Jews cannot claim it by right yet the Filistinians can.
The issue is that history only benefits one party for the right to the land and that is the Jews. To let the Filistinians take the land which they know is not theirs is abhorrent as the only purpose for it is to further destroy any un-Islamic strongholds (The Jews). Muslims have spent years removing any un-Islamic inhabitants for centuries and this current issue between non existent Filistine is no different. Israel has the right to exist on the grounds that the opposing territory is entirely fictional with no historic claims just historic subjugation and religious apprehension

These are not rightful borders. Look at the religious significance of the Filistinian areas and tell me how "un-Ironic" it is that most holy territories go to the Filistinian Muslims and not the Jews who occupied the land to begin with