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Did Pontius Pilate exist?

outhouse

Atheistically
So you think that Matthew and Luke may have plucked oral sayings from the culture and attributed them to Jesus?

How about Thomas? How do we know the origin of his sayings? (I really don't know much about them. I read a few of them awhile back and they seemed about as goofy as some of the zen stuff I hear from time to time.:))


You first need to understand the culture of the scribes in question before asking.

I dont think they attributed anything, I think there were parables in oral tradition earlier attributed to Yehoshua believed by the scribes to be from him.


We dont know the origins of Thomas.

We are talking about a very illiterate culture who could hear, remember, and pass on what was important to them. There is no clue if these were from a Yehoshua charactor or not, but it is very plausible, and there would have been Gaileans at the temple telling others of the parables they heard, and a few followers sharing information as well.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Here are a couple of the sayings from Thomas:

#2 Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

#11: Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

As I read through them, I didn't know whether to giggle aloud or whether to take an aspirin for my headache. I can certainly see why they were not included in the canon.


Remember this was a different time and a different language and they had different ways to express themselve. In English your right its a little goofy.

But in its native language if it was ever told in aramaic, would have lost some meaning going to hebrew, then to greek, then to english. who knows how much it may have been facricated or redacted along the way.

Theres many parables that seem silly buts its from our ignorance of the cultural context. Once we learn why it was important to them and what they were really trying to say, it shines light on some of these.



There were many many different scriptures in the first century, we only have a fraction of what actually existed to try and paint a picture from.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
You first need to understand the culture of the scribes in question before asking.

I dont think they attributed anything, I think there were parables in oral tradition earlier attributed to Yehoshua believed by the scribes to be from him.


We dont know the origins of Thomas.

We are talking about a very illiterate culture who could hear, remember, and pass on what was important to them. There is no clue if these were from a Yehoshua charactor or not, but it is very plausible, and there would have been Gaileans at the temple telling others of the parables they heard, and a few followers sharing information as well.
I don't need to know **** about Philo other than that he was a contemporary of Pilate and that he wrote about Pilate. For Jesus we need a special education because all we have is plenty of woo woo which is only useful for attracting followers to a religion. It's a good thing we have Christian scholars assuring us that we can read the gospels as if Jesus is historical, where would we be without them and their invented criteria of embarrassment, which was invented so that we can carry on reading the gospels as if Jesus is historical in spite of the doubts?
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I don't need to know **** about Philo other than that he was a contemporary of Pilate and that he wrote about Pilate.
Also, Philo was a contemporary of Jesus but didn't write about Jesus. Even though I don't fully subscribe to the "myth only" idea of Jesus (every pearl is made from a grain of sand), it is kind of strange that a contemporary religious author who used terms like "logos" (like in Gospel of John) yet didn't interview Jesus or even mention him. Was Jesus that obscure and unimportant to Philo? I don't know, but it's a bit damning to the historicity. Even further, Philo's writing, according to tradition, was preserved by the early Christians, so his writings must have been in line with what they believed to some degree. So why didn't Philo mention Jesus? Weird.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I don't need to know **** about Philo other than that he was a contemporary of Pilate and that he wrote about Pilate. For Jesus we need a special education because all we have is plenty of woo woo which is only useful for attracting followers to a religion. It's a good thing we have Christian scholars assuring us that we can read the gospels as if Jesus is historical, where would we be without them and their invented criteria of embarrassment, which was invented so that we can carry on reading the gospels as if Jesus is historical in spite of the doubts?


You didnt write one thing useful in any sort of debate on the subject, for one side or the other.

Claiming all scholars are biased and following apologetics is simply rediculous. This is showing ignorance of the overall historical method used to make some of these determinations.


No matter how much you dont like it 99.999% of scholars follow a historical Jesus because that is the most plausible explanation of material we have for evidence. There is no other explanations that even make any sort of sense that could be remotely plausible. The only thing scholars argue about, are different details surrounding his life. Because we dont have all the details, does not mean there is no historicity here.


There are no doubts

Only a few people who question it deeper with the mentality of conspiract theorist, 99.999% of which are mearly internet bloggers uneducated to historical methods.



Explain to me why Romans and gentiles would deify one of their oppressed peasants, and tell a stories of how he went from small village to small village teaching and healing for dinner scraps, coming from a poverty striken village like Nazareth.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
But in its native language if it was ever told in aramaic, would have lost some meaning going to hebrew, then to greek, then to english. who knows how much it may have been facricated or redacted along the way.

Yeah, that's the way I feel about virtually all of the Bible. Plus, I don't really get the underlying assumption -- that words themselves can somehow be holy, that they can somehow contain a set meaning which we can all reliably find if only we work hard enough.

And I certainly don't think we can legitimately know, one way or the other, whether Jesus actually lived in first-century Judea... so I am pretty intrigued when people seem upset by arguments either for or against their own belief about it.
 
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steeltoes

Junior member
Also, Philo was a contemporary of Jesus but didn't write about Jesus. Even though I don't fully subscribe to the "myth only" idea of Jesus (every pearl is made from a grain of sand), it is kind of strange that a contemporary religious author who used terms like "logos" (like in Gospel of John) yet didn't interview Jesus or even mention him. Was Jesus that obscure and unimportant to Philo? I don't know, but it's a bit damning to the historicity. Even further, Philo's writing, according to tradition, was preserved by the early Christians, so his writings must have been in line with what they believed to some degree. So why didn't Philo mention Jesus? Weird.

If I understand Christ myth theory, after Philo's time, and after Paul's time, someone asked if this Jesus was the Son of God that Philo was referring to. In other words, the Son of God came first, part of Philo's and Paul's Christian philosophy, and then much later a Galilean Jesus was applied to it as in the gospels. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Mark 15:39 Well's suggests that gMark welds together a Pauline Christ with a Galilean Jesus.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
You didnt write one thing useful in any sort of debate on the subject, for one side or the other.

Claiming all scholars are biased and following apologetics is simply rediculous. This is showing ignorance of the overall historical method used to make some of these determinations.


No matter how much you dont like it 99.999% of scholars follow a historical Jesus because that is the most plausible explanation of material we have for evidence. There is no other explanations that even make any sort of sense that could be remotely plausible. The only thing scholars argue about, are different details surrounding his life. Because we dont have all the details, does not mean there is no historicity here.


There are no doubts

Only a few people who question it deeper with the mentality of conspiract theorist, 99.999% of which are mearly internet bloggers uneducated to historical methods.



Explain to me why Romans and gentiles would deify one of their oppressed peasants, and tell a stories of how he went from small village to small village teaching and healing for dinner scraps, coming from a poverty striken village like Nazareth.

Give me one example of historical method, (you can wiki historical method), applied to Jesus and what the results are that come from this application.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, that's the way I feel about virtually all of the Bible. Plus, I don't really get the underlying assumption -- that words themselves can somehow be holy,

That isn't an underlying assumption, it's a religious assumption.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Give me one example of historical method, (you can wiki historical method), applied to Jesus and what the results are that come from this application.


Are you no the one lacking knowledge here? search it yourself.

Why would I waist time on someone claiming apologetics rule all modern scholarships on the topic.?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
That isn't an underlying assumption, it's a religious assumption.
Considering the disdain offered by those of a traditional historical view of Jesus towards those that have doubts about that view, you wouldn't know that the traditional view wasn't holy and off limits to questions.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If I understand Christ myth theory,


I dont think you even understand the side your trying to promote.


If you understood that mythology was used, you could focus sharper on the origins of the mythology used so you were not left in the dark so much on these topics.


"Son of god" originates from Augustus a mortal man called "son of god" before jesus. There are many mythological aspects of Augustus attributed to the Jesus legends.

These terms were used to compete the divinity of jesus, with the emporers human divinity, all compiled and redacted with OT influences and prophecies.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Considering the disdain offered by those of a traditional historical view of Jesus towards those that have doubts about that view, you wouldn't know that the traditional view wasn't holy and off limits to questions.

To whatever exent that's even true, I don't see how it would be a problem unless you're the kind of person who lets other people decide what you can and can't debate about.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Are you no the one lacking knowledge here? search it yourself.

Why would I waist time on someone claiming apologetics rule all modern scholarships on the topic.?
You claimed that "This is showing ignorance of the overall historical method used to make some of these determinations.", so I asked you to provide just one example to back up your claim. If you can't then just say so. OK, it was a rhetorical question because I know you can't, if someone could have they would have simply presented it by now, just as we did for Pontius Pilate.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
To whatever exent that's even true, I don't see how it would be a problem unless you're the kind of person who lets other people decide what you can and can't debate about.

Obviously I debate about what I choose to debate about, I just can't help but notice the disdain from those that adhere to a particular point of view, and I think you know what I mean. I'll read a book by an author of any view, one presenting a case for an hsitorical Jesus to one presenting a case for a Christianity that began with a mythical Christ, I don't care, they're just views offered from reading ancient literature. There are some good cases made by all, but I just can't help but notice that some are agitated by Christ myth theory without even knowing the first thing about it, as if should make a difference to something.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You claimed that "This is showing ignorance of the overall historical method used to make some of these determinations.", so I asked you to provide just one example to back up your claim. If you can't then just say so. OK, it was a rhetorical question because I know you can't, if someone could have they would have simply presented it by now, just as we did for Pontius Pilate.


Do your work. What scholarships do you even know?

Research Concepts in Human Behavior, G. C. Helmstadter, Englewood Cliffs, NJ:prentice-Hall Inc, 1970

1. Historical problems in a special field
1.1. The time period studied is recent history where facts are available but have not yet been gathered together
1.1.1. Cross sectional
1.1.2. Longitudinal
1.2. The time period studied is sufficiently long ago that records of events are not complete.
1.2.1. Application of scientific method.
1.2.1.1. A hypothesis as to what happened may be formulated on the basis of those pieces of information already at hand.
1.2.1.2. Deduce consequences that should be present if the hypotheses is true, but may not have been found yet.
1.2.1.3. Seek to verify the hypothesis by searching for this additional information.
1.2.1.3.1. Finding such evidence dramatically increases confidence in the original speculation. This is in contradiction to experimental situations where finding confirmation adds relatively little confidence because the alternatives which could have produced the same observations are so numerous
1.2.1.3.2. Not finding such evidence is not particularly discouraging because of the great likelihood that the appropriate material has been lost rather than never having existed. This is in contradiction to experimental situations where failure to find confirmation can lead to complete rejection of the hypothesis.

2. Special features of the historical approach.
2.1. Dependence upon observations that cannot be repeated in the same sense that a laboratory experiment or a descriptive survey can.
2.2. Observations are often not organized or conveniently recorded for solving a particular problem, requiring great patience and willingness to engage in tedious research.
2.3. Studies tend to be carried out by individuals and not by teams, increasing the research burden.
2.4. The historical approach does not always carry a defined hypothesis, due to its increased dependence upon inductive reasoning. A "question type" hypothesis, often unstated, is often used to sift through specific observations and generalize a description of what actually occurred.
2.5. Results of historical studies are often reported in a more narrative and much less rigid style than is usual with other research approaches.

3. The procedures of historical research.3.1. Collection of data.
3.1.1. Notes.
3.1.1.1. Types of notes.
3.1.1.1.1. Bibliographical notes.
3.1.1.1.2. Subject notes. Items of information that may be used in the presentation of the data.
3.1.1.1.3. Method notes. Ideas which come to the researcher in the course of reading the material, such as new hypotheses, new places to seek out additional material, critical comments about reports under consideration, and general reactions to the document.
3.1.1.2. Media.
3.1.1.2.1. Record notes on cards (or a database that serves the purpose of cards).
3.1.2. Data.
3.1.2.1. Types of data.
3.1.2.1.1. Consciously transmitted information.
3.1.2.1.2. Relics.
3.1.2.1.3. Memorials.
3.1.2.2. Sources of data.
3.1.2.2.1. Primary sources. Materials by eyewitnesses.
3.1.2.2.2. Secondary sources. Hearsay materials.
3.2. Criticism of data.
3.2.1. Veracity of sources.
3.2.1.1. External aka Lower Criticism. Is the document under consideration a genuine one?
3.2.1.2. Internal aka Higher Criticism. Is the information contained in the document trustworthy (i.e., accurate, consistent, etc)?
3.2.1.2.1. Positive internal criticism. Researcher momentarily assumes that the author of the document was accurate, competent and acting in good faith (although keeping in mind that he may be speaking figuratively), and seek literal meaning of the statements of the document.
3.2.1.2.2. Negative internal criticism. Researcher momentarily assumes that the author of the document is fallible, foolish or faking and seeks evidence that this is not so.
3.2.1.3. Interrelation of lower and higher criticism.
3.2.1.3.1. The trustworthiness of the document may help determine whether it is genuine.
3.2.1.3.2. To the degree that a document can be determined to be genuine may help determine whether the information in it is trustworthy.
3.3. Presentation of data.

4. Advantages and limitations.
4.1. Advantages
4.1.1. Some problems cannot be solved in any other way, as the circumstances cannot be repeated.
4.1.2. Some problems cannot be feasibly duplicated, or duplicated in a desirable manner.
4.1.3. Can help alleviate emotionally charged situations by identifying the situations that led up to it and providing a new perspective of the present situation.
4.2. Disadvantages.
4.2.1. Lack of rigorous control in matching past situations with present ones. Only gross effects can be detected, and seldom can the cause of these effects be directly attributed to particular variables in a specific way.
4.2.2. Tendency to generalize results far beyond the justified limits.
4.2.3. No guidelines to tell a researcher how much information to gather and analyze before a conclusion can be reached. Hence, researchers may stop before finding the correct solution, or chance never finding it.
4.2.3.1. Sample size cannot be effectively estimated as in other fields.
4.2.3.2. No effective way to calculate likelihood of making various kinds of decision errors.


A Study of History, Arnold Toynbee, abridged by D. C. Somervell, New York:Oxford U.P., 1947, pp. 43-47

I. There are three different methods of viewing and presenting the objects of our thought, and among them, the phenomena of human life. All of these, in essentials, is to be found in the works of Aristotle.

A. The first is the ascertainment and recording of 'facts.'
1. It is generally assumed that the ascertainment and recording of facts is the technique of history.
a) The phenomena in the province of this technique are the social phenomena of civilizations.

B. The second is the elucidation, through a comparative study of the facts ascertained, of general 'laws.'
1. The elucidation and formulation of general laws is the technique of science.
2. In the study of human life the science is anthropology.
a) The phenomena in the province of the scientific technique, as it relates to the study of human life, i.e., the science of anthropology, are the social phenomena of primitive societies.
3. All sciences pass through a stage in which the ascertainment and recording of facts is the only activity open to them.

C. The third is the artistic re-creation of the facts in the form of 'fiction.'
1. Fiction is the technique of the drama and the novel.
a) The phenomena in the province of this technique are the personal relations of human beings.
2. The drama and the novel do not present fictions, complete fictions and nothing but fictions about personal relationships.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
"Unity of Method in the Natural and Social Sciences," Philosophical Problems of the Sciences, ed. David Braybrooke, New York: MacMillan Company, 1965, pp. 32-41; exerpted from The Poverty of Historicism, Karl R. Popper, London: Rutledge & Kegan, 2nd ed 1960 [1957], pp 130-143.

I. Rationalism

A. Descartes
1. All sciences are deductive systems [in which conclusions are derived by reason, specifically inference in which the conclusions (called an "explanandum") follows necessarily from the premises (called "explanans", which contain at least one general law)].
2. The principles, the premises, of the deductive systems, must be secure and self-evident-'clear and distinct' (i.e., they are synthetic and 'a priori" valid, in Kantian language)

B. Henri Poincare' and Pierre Duhem
1. Recognized the impossibility of conceiving the theories of physics as inductive generalizations. The observational measurements, which form the alleged starting point for the generalizations of inductive systems, are actually interpretations in the light of theories.
2. Rejected the rationalistic belief in synthetic "a priori" valid principals or axioms.
a) Poincare interpreted the observational measurements as analytically true, as definitions.
b) Duhem interpreted the observational measurements as means for the ordering of the experimental laws.
3. Theories, thus, cannot contain true or false information, but are nothing but instruments that are convenient or inconvenient, economical or uneconomical, supple and subtle, or else creaking and crude.
a) Duhem said that we can test only huge and complex theoretical systems and not isolated hypotheses. Theories are thus incapable of being subjected to emperical tests.
b) Duhem also showed how it is impossible to prove or establish a theory by use of tests.

C. Karl R. Popper
1. Agrees that it is impossible to conceive of the theories of physics as inductive generalizations, and extends this conception to the social sciences.
a) The method by which we obtain our theories and hypotheses is not actually induction from observations, as this is really merely an illusion of perception. We actually always start the process with something along ther lines of a theory, such as a hypotheses, a prejudice or a problem in mind to guide our observations, to help us select from the innumerable objects of observation those of which may be of interest.
(1) In the natural sciences, the parameter of equations can be reduced from the concrete objects into a small number of natural constraints.
(2) In the social sciences, our objects are often themselves abstract or theoretical constructions, produced by applying the process of reduction to concrete objects (numbers, statistics), in light of a model.
(a) In the case of economics, the parameters are themselves in the most important cases quickly changing variables, which in turn clearly reduces the significance, interpretability, and testability of our measurements.
b) Whether the above is true or not, it is actually irrelevant whether the hypotheses were formulated from an inductive or a deductive process, as testing can still be applied to the resulting hypotheses without regard to how they were formed.
2. Also rejects the rationalistic belief in synthetic "a priori" valid principals or axioms.
a) The principles, the premises, of the deductive systems, are tenative conjectures, or hypotheses.
b) Hypotheses must be refutable in principal.
3. Some theoretical systems are thus testable, as they can be refuted by means of their hypotheses.
a) The method of testing hypotheses is the same regardless of whether we are seeking explanations, making predictions, or testing a problem.
(1) If we take our problem to be finding the initial conditions or some other universal laws (or both) from which we may deduce a given "prognisis", then we are looking for an "explanation" (the "prognosis" becomes the "explicandum").
(2) If we consider the laws and initial conditions as given (rather than as to be found) and use them merely for deducing the prognosis, in order to get thereby some new information, then we are trying to make a "prediction" (this is a case where we apply our scientific results).
(3) If we consider one of the premises, i.e. either a universal law or an initial condition, as problematic, and the prognosis as something to be compared to the results of experience, then we speak of a "test" of the problematic premise.
b) The results of tests is the selection of hypotheses which have stood up to tests, or the elimination of those hypotheses which have not stood up to them, and which were therefore rejected.
(1) Proposes the "zero method", i.e. the method of logical or rational construction. Assuming that individuals are rational beings (regardless of whether their behavior is always rational, which it will not be), models can be constructed on the assumption of complete rationality (and perhaps on the assumption of the possession of complete information) on the part of the individuals concerned. On this basis we can estimate the deviation of the actual behavior from the model behavior. An example of this method is found in the equations of economics.

II. Empiricism
A. All sciences collect observations from which generalizations are obtained by induction [i.e., the act, process or result or an instance of reasoning from a part to a whole, from particulars to generals, or from the individual to the universal].
1. Bacon (English)
 

outhouse

Atheistically
An Introduction to the Philosophy of Science, Karel Lambert and Gordon G. Brittan Jr., Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall Inc, 1970, pp. 24-66.

I. Laws.

A. Are statements that express regularities.
1. They must have emperical content.
2. They must be true.
3. They must not be "accidentally" true.

B. Laws of universal form (i.e. generalized conditional laws).
1. In all cases where such and such conditions are realized, so and so kind of event will result. Conclusions are derived by reason, specifically inference in which the conclusions (called an "explanandum") follows necessarily from the premises (called "explanans", which contain at least one general law).
a) A Deductive Argument may contain statistical generalizations, but explain "mass events" rather than individual events.

C. Statistical laws.
1. When such and such conditions are realized, there is a certain statistical probability that so and so kind of event will result. Or that a certain percentage of a given population has a particular property. The "expnanans" does not deductively imply the "explanandum", even if the "explanandum" is itself a probability statement. Rather, the "explanans" confirms a certain liklihood on the "explanandum".
a) A "Statistical Generalization" is a statement to the effect that a certain percentage of cases having feature F will have feature G. It may also state the relative frequency with which certain kinds of events have certain kinds of outcomes. It can be called "statistical probability".
b) A "Liklihood" is a relation between statements. It is a measure of the degree of support which some statements confer upon another., in particular the degree of support which the "explanans" confers upon the "explanandum".
(1) Liklihood is sometimes called "inductive probability" to distinguish it from "statistical probability",

II. Explanatory Arguments.

A. Those of a deductive nature (Hemple & Opperheim)
1. To show that the event E was to be expected is to exclude the possibility that E did not occur. It is to show why, in some sense, E was necessary or had to happen, relative to certain antecedent circumstances.
2. Statistical generalizations that are admitted to explain "mass events" may still be deductive in nature and provide genuine explanations.
3. Statistical generalizations that are admitted to explain individual events provide at best only a ground for our belief, but do not explain it, and so do not qualify as genuine explanations in the classical sense.

B. Those of an inductive in nature.
1. The conclusion is not a logical consequence of the premises but is supported by them to a greater or lesser extant.
2. The conclusion describes an individual event and which contains statistical generalizations.
a) If statistical generalizations are admitted to explain individual events, they can be admitted as genuine explanations only if the degree of certainty of the explanation must be relaxed from that required of a deductive explanation. This requires that the "explanans" must exclude to a high degree of probability the possibility of E's not occurring.

C. An explanation must in theory also be a prediction, as explanation and prediction are structurally similar, and only differentiated in the matter of the time they are made (after vs. before the fact). However, predictions do not necessarily rest on laws as most explanations, and are not always symmetrical in every case.

D. Teleological Explanations.

E. Reductive Explanations (has a connection to Popper's position).
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Give me one example of historical method, (you can wiki historical method), applied to Jesus and what the results are that come from this application.

I ask for one little example as it applies to Jesus and you copy and paste a **** load of website content. What's with that?
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
That isn't an underlying assumption, it's a religious assumption.

If you'd rather call it an underlying religious assumption, that's fine with me.

But I see it as simply the extreme position of a common human confusion about language. Even many atheists will argue (fiercely) over what an 'atheist' is, as if the word itself can contain some set meaning. To me, that seems almost like magical thinking. Certainly it seems a confused view of language and how it works.
 
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