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Quest for the historical Jesus

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What if the authors wrote mythologically while trying to focus on what was important for them.?
They were. Every author is. The question of genre, however, allows one to restrict the range a bit. Not as much as today, certainly (where we have historical fiction, sci-fi, fantasy, novels, historical novels, etc.). But what we think of as classic "myths" (stories about Herakles, Troy, Odysseus, and so forth) were types of genre to the Greeks and Romans (and in other cultures as well). Some were poetic (which again means set in meter), others drama/plays (also in meter). But they shared certain features other than including the miraculous, magic, demi-gods, gods, and the things we tend to associate with myth.

A good analogy is the opening "once upon a time". When someone familiar with fairy tales told/written in English hears/reads this line, and it is followed by a story, that opening line tells us what to expect. We expect things like carriages turning into pumpkins, little german children being left to die out in the woods repeatedly until breadcrumbs are eaten and the kids get caught by a witch, and all the other elements of fairy tales. We don't expect "once upon a time, the authors used mahalanobis distance as a dissimilarity metric in their cluster analysis of ordinal variables on a likert scale prior to reducing set dimensionality by..." etc.

Likewise with "To whom it may concern" or "Dear Sir", which tend to be followed by a letter. Luke may be the only gospel that opens with a statement of purpose, but it's so blatantly obvious that all of the gospels are different than myth (or would be obvious to a reader/hearer in the first few centuries) that this is no more necessary then signifying that one is going to be reciting some epic myth by asking the muse for help. The meter alone would, but if that weren't enough, phrases like "shining Achilles" (dios Achilleus) or kouresi...Okeanou bathukolpois (deep-breasted maidens/daughters of Ocean) and similar epithets would make it clear.

History became "history" (the study of the past rather than mere story-telling) because a particular story-teller (Herodotus) used it in the opening of his work, which differed from most stories in the amount of detail and balance his "inquiries" had relative to rumour or stories in general. But he and other historians still talked about myths, and especially when it came to biographies. The point was to tell as story about the person. It was supposed to be real, yes, but that doesn't mean believable by any modern standard. More importantly, in more straightforward history (rather than proto-biographies), time was much more important in the narrative. From Mark to John to Plutarch, events/deeds were much more important than the actual order of these. Even more so for e.g., Xenophon's depiction of Socrates in his memorabilia.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; once upon a time...

"Son of God" was a term for mortal men, given to living Emporers. The author of Gmark was writing to and for Romans

Started with Augustus, when he witnessed a comet or shooting star and proclaimed his father Caesar divine. Thus making himself "Son of God"


Try again.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Well there is a problem..

The gospels do have stories that are not inline so to call them historical biographies is insane since a Historic only confirms the history to be fully truth if there are interdependent writers of the events and they have to be the same. Both criteria's fail..

The problem is that we do not have any other "testimony"
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The gospels do have stories that are not inline so to call them historical biographies
By any modern standard, of course you are correct. But by any modern standard, we'd have no historical accounts at all from Herodotus to Eusebius and beyond. Thankfully, modern historians take all ancient historical counts with a grain (or a pile) of salt. That doesn't make these accounts worthless.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
"Son of God" was a term for mortal men, given to living Emporers. The author of Gmark was writing to and for Romans

Started with Augustus, when he witnessed a comet or shooting star and proclaimed his father Caesar divine. Thus making himself "Son of God"


Try again.
So what god was Jesus the son of, the same god as that of Roman emperors?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
By any modern standard, of course you are correct. But by any modern standard, we'd have no historical accounts at all from Herodotus to Eusebius and beyond. Thankfully, modern historians take all ancient historical counts with a grain (or a pile) of salt. That doesn't make these accounts worthless.

So if we don't read the gospels as historical accounts we lose all history?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So if we don't read the gospels as historical accounts we lose all history?
Not at all. If you read any ancient historical accounts as modern historiography, you lose any ability to reconstruct ancient history. However, if you understand ancient historiography as being what it is, and in terms of the culture, genres, literary styles, etc., that produced it, then you are able to use ancient sources in the ways they ought to be. If, however, you are content to relegate the study of ancient history to experts unless it concerns Jesus (and in this case, you refuse to accept any historical account or even study the matter at all in any detail), then you are bound to find historical accounts from in and around the first century lacking. But this is akin to saying that 19th century phyics is worthless, because they did not have the tools or perspective of modern physics.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a good analogy, LegionOnomaMoi. If I might add another, its like saying that Sound of Music is a bad movie, just because it doesn't have any laser guns in it. Its also like saying that submarines are useless since you can swim right over them.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
By any modern standard, of course you are correct. But by any modern standard, we'd have no historical accounts at all from Herodotus to Eusebius and beyond. Thankfully, modern historians take all ancient historical counts with a grain (or a pile) of salt. That doesn't make these accounts worthless.

I agree that's why i added the last part.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Not at all. If you read any ancient historical accounts as modern historiography, you lose any ability to reconstruct ancient history. However, if you understand ancient historiography as being what it is, and in terms of the culture, genres, literary styles, etc., that produced it, then you are able to use ancient sources in the ways they ought to be. If, however, you are content to relegate the study of ancient history to experts unless it concerns Jesus (and in this case, you refuse to accept any historical account or even study the matter at all in any detail), then you are bound to find historical accounts from in and around the first century lacking. But this is akin to saying that 19th century phyics is worthless, because they did not have the tools or perspective of modern physics.

Maybe a lot of what we believe took place in ancient times could be reassessed. History is written by the victors, one sided.

Most of our "history" of Jesus comes to us by way of biblical scholars since most of the actual historians won't go near the subject, and biblical scholars get fired for questioning an historical Jesus.

BTW, scholarly works on The Bible are a good read, biblical scholars doing historical Jesus, not so much, and understandably so.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
BTW, scholarly works on The Bible are a good read, biblical scholars doing historical Jesus, not so much, and understandably so.

That depends on your perspective, from a Theist's point of view I prefer reading about the historical Jesus in what I consider to be the logical manner of portraying him, I don't need trite, misinformed speculation from people who know neither Judaic nor Christian history or doctrine.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
That depends on your perspective, from a Theist's point of view I prefer reading about the historical Jesus in what I consider to be the logical manner of portraying him, I don't need trite, misinformed speculation from people who know neither Judaic nor Christian history or doctrine.

Then I recommend Bart Ehrman's books wherein you can read that Paul met Jesus' brother. His readers never tire of that, it's mesmerizing stuff.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Such as? In fact they haven't, people have been assuming uncritically that Jesus was a historical person for centuries, avoiding the debate over whether or not he existed.


I'm not well read enough to give the names of books or authors dealing with the topic myself off the top of my head, but I'm guessing there are at least a few people in here who are and could (if they haven't already done so in this thread).

And just a quick Bing provided this list:




None of these books even mention the mythic/ahistorical Jesus idea, or any 'debate' over Jesus' historicity. As far as i know, Ehrman is the only scholar to actually address the question "did Jesus exist?" explicitly, but please correct me if i am wrong. (CORRECTION the Dunn book does mention some mythic views, but only to dismiss them offhand.)

Before I address any of this, could I get you to respond to post #134?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe a lot of what we believe took place in ancient times could be reassessed. History is written by the victors, one sided.

Most of our "history" of Jesus comes to us by way of biblical scholars since most of the actual historians won't go near the subject, and biblical scholars get fired for questioning an historical Jesus.

You're still equating "Biblical scholar" with "a scholar of the bible who happens to be Christian", aren't you?

BTW, scholarly works on The Bible are a good read, biblical scholars doing historical Jesus, not so much, and understandably so.

Pray tell: who would be producing "scholarly works on the bible" other than biblical scholars?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
You're still equating "Biblical scholar" with "a scholar of the bible who happens to be Christian", aren't you?



Pray tell: who would be producing "scholarly works on the bible" other than biblical scholars?

Biblical scholars are not historians, which is why the biblical Jesus just happens to turn out to be the historical Jesus when left up to the biblical scholar.
 
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