For Parents: If God Told You To...

[helpmeplease]

I am sick of this all loving god stuff. There is not a single passage in the bible that demonstrates god's love.

 

[Me Myself]

I think the main point of the Abraham/Isaac story is Abraham's radical trust and faith in God. He trusted God's goodness even in the face of a seemingly irrational command to sacrifice his son. If one reads the story carefully, one will see the extraordinary faith he possessed.

"And Abraham said to his young men, 'Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship and return to you.'" ~Genesis 22:5

"And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, 'My father!' And he said, 'Here I am, my son.' And he said, 'Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?' And Abraham said, 'God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.'" ~Genesis 22:7-8

Abraham didn't seem to doubt for a second that Isaac would return alive and that God would somehow spare him. He trusted God's goodness implicitly. Even in the face of a situation that seemed horribly wrong.

Job echoed a similar sentiment, in the face of all his suffering, when he said, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."

So I think God's ultimate goodness, and our faith in His goodness, in the face of all that might seem contrary to His goodness, is the main point of this story.

The problem is that he did indeed thought God intended him to kill his son. The fact that he said to his son that God would provide, merely meant haden´t yet conjured the balls to tell his kid he is going to kill him because God says so.

This story is about a person that hears a voice telling him to do something horrible, and decides that this voice must be God because it says it is, and that it is okay to do this horrible thing, because "God" asked him to do so, and it didn´t matter how horrible it was.

There is practically no difference in mentality to those who flew planes into the towers in 911. No, it doesn´t make a difference that God told Abraham to not do it in the end, because I am talking about the mentality of Abraham that is being celebrated: If "God" asks you to do something despicably and fundamentaly wrong, you must shut up and do what God´s will.

I mean you could say "It is not about the millions they killed, is about their heroic faith and willingness to die for God" about the suicide bombers. Seriously, Abraham´s fanatism is to be feared, not celebrated.

 

[waitasec]

Everyone's experiences differ. No, I don't generally hear voices in my head though.

There are two exceptions to that statement though that I recall from my life. One of them was definitely a spiritual experience and I clearly heard the statement "I know your heart."

The only other time I recall hearing a "voice in my head" wasn't really a voice in my head, though I did hear someone speak and that someone was nowhere in sight. This was when I was laying on the floor passed out from carbon monoxide poisoning, and nearly dead. Suddenly I heard the most urgent, awful voice (by awful, I mean awe-ful - hard to describe), and that voice clearly said, "WAKE UP. WAKE UP." It was so urgent and loud and unavoidable that it seemed to shake me. I didn't want to hear it because I was enjoying fading out of this life - but I simply could not ignore this voice, and it's a good thing I didn't, because if I had, I would be dead now.

When I told the doctors at the hospital about it, they told me - totally seriously - "Maybe it was your guardian angel - we can't explain it. We've never known of anyone who was already passed out, with this high a level of carbon monoxide as you have, to ever wake back up again. It's unexplainable. You should be dead."

So - I guess I was wrong when I said I never hear voices - but twice in fifty years isn't very often.

These two incidents DID get my attention though. They were nothing like those odd little urges or compulsions or desires that we have that clearly come from our subconscience. I can recognize those for what they are. There's a big, big difference.

i'm glad you were able to hear that terrible voice.

 

[helpmeplease]

The problem is that he did indeed thought God intended him to kill his son. The fact that he said to his son that God would provide, merely meant haden´t yet conjured the balls to tell his kid he is going to kill him because God says so.

This story is about a person that hears a voice telling him to do something horrible, and decides that this voice must be God because it says it is, and that it is okay to do this horrible thing, because "God" asked him to do so, and it didn´t matter how horrible it was.

There is practically no difference in mentality to those who flew planes into the towers in 911. No, it doesn´t make a difference that God told Abraham to not do it in the end, because I am talking about the mentality of Abraham that is being celebrated: If "God" asks you to do something despicably and fundamentaly wrong, you must shut up and do what God´s will.

I mean you could say "It is not about the millions they killed, is about their heroic faith and willingness to die for God" about the suicide bombers. Seriously, Abraham´s fanatism is to be feared, not celebrated.

:clap:clap:clap:yes::yes::yes:

 

[waitasec]

I am sick of this all loving god stuff. There is not a single passage in the bible that demonstrates god's love.

you know i agree with you, but i have to say...even love is a subjective understanding, why do battered wives stay with their abusive husbands?

 

[Kathryn]

So... the Christian faith is the "adult" one and the Jewish faith is for people with only a child's understanding and maturity?

I know it's still only morning, but I feel pretty safe in saying that this is the most chauvinistic thing I'll read all day.

One more point - Jewish theology is so detailed, so full of depth, so profound - I think many mainstream Christians would be shocked at the depth and beauty of Jewish theology, just as they'd probably be shocked at the depth and beauty of much, say, Catholic or Orthodox theology. This is just a general statement, but I think a lot of Christians don't understand their own faith well at all (this is probably true of lots of religious folks, not just Christians by the way).

So - no, I don't mean that the OT is rudimentary in the sense that it's elementary. That was not a clear statement on my part. I meant that the God of the OT, especially the Pentateuch, related to humans on a very basic level, considering HUMAN immaturity when it came to understanding God, just as we take into consideration a child's maturity level when we give them instructions - which is why, by the way, it's important for a very young child to learn "Obey first, ask questions later." They don't have the maturity yet to gather and sort information - we do it for them, for their own safety, till they are old enough to take the reins.

I believe that, like Christianity, the Jewish faith and level of maturity has also evolved and grown over the centuries. So I did not mean to imply that their faith is childish.

 

[helpmeplease]

you know i agree with you, but i have to say...even love is a subjective understanding, why do battered wives stay with their abusive husbands?

Ahh but we are speaking about an all powerful all knowing all loving god. Not some poor deluded woman. Deluded being the operative word.

 

[Kathryn]

i'm glad you were able to hear that terrible voice.

Me too - my entire family had already passed out. We had to be medivacced to San Antonio and spent five days in the hyperbaric chamber there at Wilford Hall Hospital.

They had never had anyone survive such high levels of carbon monoxide.

The truly amazing thing is that we suffered very few long term effects. Actually I was the most affected because I was the lowest to the ground (everyone else was in their beds, but I had passed out on the floor, and carbon monoxide is heavier than oxygen so it sinks). My short term memory and balance and field of vision was affected, but over the years I've compensated for that and learned to live with it.

It's a small price to pay. I am very grateful for whatever or whoever that voice was that woke me up. It/He/She saved the lives of my children that night.

But I digress.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am sick of this all loving god stuff. There is not a single passage in the bible that demonstrates god's love.

:kissbette

 

[Hope]

i agree. and, imo, anything that condones blind trust is not to be trusted.

I understand that opinion. Most people would agree with you. In fact, in many respects, I would tend to agree with you myself.

However, if you think of a parent/child relationship, wouldn't you say that the child has "blind trust" in his/her parents? No doubt, bad parents might abuse that trust, but a good parent would not, and the child must trust that, no matter how unpleasant something may be that the parent allows the child to endure (such as going to the doctor, discipline, etc.), the parent has the child's best interests in mind.

Likewise, no matter how smart or evolved we may think we are, ultimately we are all incapable of being as intelligent or as wise as God Himself, and we have to relate to Him as a child to a parent in many respects, and therefore have, in some measure, blind trust or faith in Him.

I know you (and probably many others on here) may find such blind trust highly disagreeable, but I'm ok with that. Just sharing what I believe.

 

[waitasec]

It's a small price to pay. I am very grateful for whatever or whoever that voice was that woke me up. It/He/She saved the lives of my children that night.

But I digress.

i think in your experience, if i may say so, that you were the most fit to survive that terrible ordeal and because you were the most fit you were able to save your family...

that's how i see it, not that i mean to negate what it means for you.

 

[Kathryn]

I am sick of this all loving god stuff. There is not a single passage in the bible that demonstrates god's love.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God. who loved me and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, evenwhen we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

1 John 4:9-11 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Peter 5:6-7 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Job 34:19 who shows no partiality to princes, nor regards the rich more than the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?

Psalm 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Psalm 36:5 -7
Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the skies.

Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains,
your justice like the great deep.
O LORD, you preserve both man and beast.

How priceless is your unfailing love!
Both high and low among men
find refuge in the shadow of your wings.” (NIV)

Isaiah 49:15-16
“Can a mother forget her nursing child? Can she feel no love for the child she has borne? But even if that were possible, I would not forget you! See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands.” (NLT)

Zephaniah 3:17
“The Lord your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.” (NIV)

Jeremiah 31:3
“The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.”(NIV)

Lamentations 3:22 – 25
Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.” The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him, to the one who seeks him. ” (NIV)

John 15:9-16a “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you…” (ESV)

1 John 4:10-11 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” (KJV)

Titus 3: 4-5 “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (NIV)

1 John 3:1
“How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.” (NIV)

Romans 8: 35-39
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (NIV)

1 John 4:16
“And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.”(NIV)

Psalm 52:8b “I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.” (NIV)

 

[helpmeplease]

waitasec I know something about battered wives and many honestly believe that their husbands don't mean it and many husbands don't mean it. Unfortunately the patriarchal society in which we live, creates pressures that cause unacceptable behaviour. I'm getting to be an old man now and I still can't justify husbands beating wives or kids, but I've learned to understand some of it. I punched my old man out when I was 14 for hitting my mum, I've never regretted it but I never stopped loving him and neither did my mum for the 58yrs they were married. He never hit her again. I think I had something to do with that, but he also changed jobs, he became a happier person.

 

[waitasec]

waitasec I know something about battered wives and many honestly believe that their husbands don't mean it and many husbands don't mean it. Unfortunately the patriarchal society in which we live, creates pressures that cause unacceptable behaviour. I'm getting to be an old man now and I still can't justify husbands beating wives or kids, but I've learned to understand some of it. I punched my old man out when I was 14 for hitting my mum, I've never regretted it but I never stopped loving him and neither did my mum for the 58yrs they were married. He never hit her again. I think I had something to do with that, but he also changed jobs, he became a happier person.

i'm glad to know your courage to stand up for your mom knocked some sense into your fathers behavior.

i would also like to add...
unfortunately, condoning blind faith in religion and portraying blind faith as a virtue gives license to dangerous behavior.

 

[helpmeplease]

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God. who loved me and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, evenwhen we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

1 John 4:9-11 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Peter 5:6-7 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Job 34:19 who shows no partiality to princes, nor regards the rich more than the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?

Psalm 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Psalm 36:5 -7
Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the skies.

Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains,
your justice like the great deep.
O LORD, you preserve both man and beast.

How priceless is your unfailing love!
Both high and low among men
find refuge in the shadow of your wings.” (NIV)

Isaiah 49:15-16
“Can a mother forget her nursing child? Can she feel no love for the child she has borne? But even if that were possible, I would not forget you! See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands.” (NLT)

Zephaniah 3:17
“The Lord your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.” (NIV)

Jeremiah 31:3
“The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.”(NIV)

Lamentations 3:22 – 25
Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.” The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him, to the one who seeks him. ” (NIV)

John 15:9-16a “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you…” (ESV)

1 John 4:10-11 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” (KJV)

Titus 3: 4-5 “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (NIV)

1 John 3:1
“How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.” (NIV)

Romans 8: 35-39
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (NIV)

1 John 4:16
“And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.”(NIV)

Psalm 52:8b “I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.” (NIV)

I will come back to this tomorrow Kathryn, it's late here and I need to respond to every verse. But thank you.

 

[helpmeplease]

i'm glad to know your courage to stand up for your mom knocked some sense into your fathers behavior.

i would also like to add...
unfortunately, condoning blind faith in religion and portraying blind faith as a virtue gives license to dangerous behavior.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So I think God's ultimate goodness, and our faith in His goodness, in the face of all that might seem contrary to His goodness, is the main point of this story.

I don't think it is, because that point could have been expressed by Abraham refusing to sacrifice Isaac in the first place, being sure in his faith that God would never want such an evil act.

When Abraham thought that God wanted him to sacrifice his son, he was wrong, wasn't he?

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Claiming love is very different from demonstrating love.

And I wouldn't call it "love" to sacrifice oneself to oneself to save everyone from oneself. Psychotic, maybe... not love. In that situation, if God truly did love the world, we would not need to be saved from his wrath. If God was a loving God, Jesus' sacrifice would be unnecessary.

 

[Kathryn]

When I tell my dogs to get in the car, they obey me without knowing whether they are going to the park - or to the vet's office.

When I pull up to the vet's office, they don't want to get out of the car, but they still obey me, albeit not very enthusiastically!

Am I taking them to the vet, to be stuck with needles, or even worse - have ORGANS REMOVED - because I hate them, or because I love them?

They need to have faith in me, faith that I have their best interests in mind, even though they do not understand why I would do such things to them.

They have a limited perspective.

Now - if I beat my dogs regularly, abused them, didn't take care of them, and then expected obedience - well, they may obey me out of fear, but they might also disobey me. They might hide from me, or even bite me. Their fear and reactions would be justified.

But I've treated them with lovingkindness all the days of their lives. This doesn't mean that I haven't caused them pain at times. For instance, they've both been neutered. I'e crammed pills down both their throats before. They've had shots. I've made them stay in a pen when visiting my parents. I boarded them for two weeks once when I was on vacation, and I'm sure they thought they were totally abandoned by me.

But I know, even more than they know, that I love them dearly, and that even when I've allowed them to be "hurt" - or even hurt them MYSELF - that I've done so out of love and concern for them.

Is their love for me "blind faith?" Or is it faith based on their assurance that I love them and their understanding (though limited by their dogginess) of that love?

 

[Kathryn]

I don't think it is, because that point could have been expressed by Abraham refusing to sacrifice Isaac in the first place, being sure in his faith that God would never want such an evil act.

When Abraham thought that God wanted him to sacrifice his son, he was wrong, wasn't he?


Claiming love is very different from demonstrating love.

And I wouldn't call it "love" to sacrifice oneself to oneself to save everyone from oneself. Psychotic, maybe... not love. In that situation, if God truly did love the world, we would not need to be saved from his wrath. If God was a loving God, Jesus' sacrifice would be unnecessary.

Limited human understanding.

(See dog example above.)

You know, parents deal with the same thing. It's a sort of life cycle.

You have kids. You teach them understanding and they grow in maturity over the years. But for many years, they simply do not have the capability to understand the depth of adult reasoning - for instance, WHY we would want them in bed by 8 pm on school nights, when they so desperately want to stay up later. WHY do we move out of state, forcing them to leave their friends and school? WHY do we tell them they can't play in the street, when it makes such a perfect place to bounce a ball or run races? WHY can't they live off ice cream rather than learning to eat vegetables?

So - when they are young, we don't burden them with explanations about everything. They have to accept some things they don't understand, on faith. Another word for this is "obedience."

Nothing bugs me more than a three year old screaming in a check out line, "But WHY can't I have the candy? WHY, MOMMY, WHY?" I want to turn around and tell the mother, "You know what - sometimes it's OK to tell them it's because YOU SAID SO."

As they grow in maturity, we allow them more questioning, more leeway, and we give them more information. But there are many, many things they simply won't understand...till they become parents themselves, perhaps.

As a Christian, I have accepted that there are some things about God's character that I simply can't grasp with my limited human intellect. My wisdom is limited by my own humanity. Does this mean that I can't question, or shouldn't question? No - I should and do seek wisdom and understanding. And guess what - when I seek it, I find it - not in my time, but in God's time, and when I need it.

I have faith, and that faith has never failed me. Even when it has been shaken, even when I thought I would lose it, God has shown me the depth of His love.

That's just my personal perspective. You can take it or leave it, but that's how my life has played out so far.

 

[Hope]

The problem is that he did indeed thought God intended him to kill his son. The fact that he said to his son that God would provide, merely meant haden´t yet conjured the balls to tell his kid he is going to kill him because God says so.

Feel free to interpret it that way if you wish. I can't stop you.

This story is about a person that hears a voice telling him to do something horrible, and decides that this voice must be God because it says it is, and that it is okay to do this horrible thing, because "God" asked him to do so, and it didn´t matter how horrible it was.

There is practically no difference in mentality to those who flew planes into the towers in 911. No, it doesn´t make a difference that God told Abraham to not do it in the end, because I am talking about the mentality of Abraham that is being celebrated: If "God" asks you to do something despicably and fundamentaly wrong, you must shut up and do what God´s will.

I think your analogy is a bit off. Those who flew the planes into the two towers on 9/11 intended to kill all those people. And themselves, apparently. I don't think they were expecting, much less even wanting, divine intervention at the last second. At least if you judge by the reaction of Al-qaeda and other Muslim extremists after the fact.

I mean you could say "It is not about the millions they killed, is about their heroic faith and willingness to die for God" about the suicide bombers. Seriously, Abraham´s fanatism is to be feared, not celebrated.

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's important to remember that anybody can have faith in anything....Abraham's faith should be celebrated because of Who he had faith in. The object of our faith is also extremely important. If Abraham believed God was the sort of God who took pleasure in killing people, then he would have obeyed God with even more alacrity. Perhaps even with outright cheerfulness. But that's not what I get when I read the story. He obeyed because he knew the object of his faith would not contradict His own nature. Or His word. (Because God had promised Abraham he would be the father of many nations.)

Suicide bombers may have great faith, but their faith is entirely misplaced, and that's why their faith is not admirable, and Abraham's is.