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Reason Rally: Mock Believers! - Dawkins

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Does everything Dawkins say must come from the point of a scientist?
No, but you can't have it both ways. If you speak as a scientist and want to be respected as a scientist or speak from athority, then you must act like a professional.

If you want to speak as an average joe with an opinion, then you have to qualify that it is just your opinion. Doctors don't wear their white coat on the golf course when they cuss after making a bad shot just as they don't wear golf attire and cuss when they are seeing patients.

The bottom line is, opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and most of them stink.

As far as mocking is concerned, everyone has a right to behave badly in real life if they choose to. The thing is, others usually act badly in return. What is the good of that? Does it change anything? Dawkins thinks people like me are full of crap, I get that. He has every right to his opinion.

What I believe is going to happen is many Atheists are going to start pushing others real hard. When this happens, others may push back. Someone will get hurt and things will get out of hand.

Perhaps we should have a religious war in this country and the last person standing can have things their way.

Or, we could just respect differences of opinion and enjoy spirited debate with a degree of mutual civility.

I don't have a problem with how others think until they start telling me how I should think. Now we have a big problem. Just imagine if I was to drag Dawkins into church and beat the crap out of him until he got himself "saved".

Does anyone think that would fly?
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Does anyone think that would fly?

Not me. That's why Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist crowd has very little credibility as "Christians". Like you said, "they can't have it both ways". Either they conduct themselves as Christians or stop declaring they are.

A scientist who constantly flaunts his status as a scientist and professor while declaring his opponents "child abusers" and calls for mocking and ridiculing them isn't acting like a scientist nor a professor.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Not me. That's why Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist crowd has very little credibility as "Christians". Like you said, "they can't have it both ways". Either they conduct themselves as Christians or stop declaring they are.

A scientist who constantly flaunts his status as a scientist and professor while declaring his opponents "child abusers" and calls for mocking and ridiculing them isn't acting like a scientist nor a professor.

he is shedding light on the fact that his opponents are just as guilty as the next guy with "god" on their side...

what's wrong with mocking a hypocrite?
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Nothing wrong with identifying hypocrisy where it exists, but as discussed before, I do not see how mocking is any better than ridicule, name-calling or other emotional rants.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
No, but you can't have it both ways. If you speak as a scientist and want to be respected as a scientist or speak from athority, then you must act like a professional.

I have never seen Dawkins act anything other than professional, whether it's about evolutionary biology or religion.

As far as mocking is concerned, everyone has a right to behave badly in real life if they choose to. The thing is, others usually act badly in return. What is the good of that? Does it change anything?

Mocking an idea that has no evidence to support it is not acting badly, if that is the point you're trying to make.

Dawkins thinks people like me are full of crap, I get that.

Does he really believe that? Are you sure? Or, does he take a stand against religion itself and how religion makes good people do bad things?

What I believe is going to happen is many Atheists are going to start pushing others real hard. When this happens, others may push back. Someone will get hurt and things will get out of hand.

That's actually quite funny considering it is the religious that have been doing the pushing all this time.

Perhaps we should have a religious war in this country and the last person standing can have things their way.

Or, we could just respect differences of opinion and enjoy spirited debate with a degree of mutual civility.

If spirited debate and mutual civility was something the religious actually understood and practiced, you would have a point.

I don't have a problem with how others think until they start telling me how I should think.

Atheists, like Dawkins, are making that exact point about the religious telling us how we should think and what we should believe.

Just imagine if I was to drag Dawkins into church and beat the crap out of him until he got himself "saved".

Does anyone think that would fly?

That isn't even a reasonable statement, let alone one to be considered flying.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with identifying hypocrisy where it exists, but as discussed before, I do not see how mocking is any better than ridicule, name-calling or other emotional rants.

Mocking and ridicule are sometimes all that is available in the face of willful ignorance and thorough-going unthruthfulness. What other tools are at hand to deter persistant liars who are immune to reason from spreading their noxious nonsense?

The current threads involving Noah's purported flood show some examples. Supporters of the flood refuse to answer serious objections and constantly advance foolish arguments.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Mocking and ridicule are sometimes all that is available in the face of willful ignorance and thorough-going unthruthfulness. What other tools are at hand to deter persistant liars who are immune to reason from spreading their noxious nonsense?

Veritas liberabit vos

Do you really think mocking and ridicule will stop liars or the ignorant or do you think it only makes you feel better?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
No, but you can't have it both ways. If you speak as a scientist and want to be respected as a scientist or speak from athority, then you must act like a professional.
I don't agree with you about how professionals, especially scientists, normally behave in public debates. They love to provoke each other, and they can be quite emotional about their political and religious opinions. In Dawkins' case, he is particularly emotional over the way his science is being attacked and distorted by politicians and religious figures. He has every right to express himself on that subject and any other topic pertaining to religion. His public lectures on atheism go well beyond science, however, and he does not attack religion on purely scientific grounds. If religious figures can expound on science, why can't scientists expound on religion? I see nothing wrong with all of this public debate over religion and science. There is nothing "unprofessional" in polemical speeches. Scientists and other academics engage in them all the time, both inside and outside of their profession.

And it is especially ironic that any of us in this religious debate forum would criticize someone else for using ridicule and mockery against the religious beliefs of others. Which of us has not done that in the past?

If you want to speak as an average joe with an opinion, then you have to qualify that it is just your opinion. Doctors don't wear their white coat on the golf course when they cuss after making a bad shot just as they don't wear golf attire and cuss when they are seeing patients.
Dawkins is not cussing on a golf course. Nor is he the first or only scientist out there who uses ridicule to make a point, as you would know if you bothered to listen to cablescavenger's video. Astronomer Fred Hoyle, for example, used mockery to attack evolution theory in his famous reference to a tornado assembling a Boeing 747 in a junkyard. He was, essentially, calling evolutionists idiots for not seeing what was obvious to him and everyone else. There was nothing wrong in his behavior, just as there was nothing wrong with those who pointed out the flaws in his reasoning.

The bottom line is, opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and most of them stink.
Well, that's your opinion, isn't it? And you are using it to mock Dawkins' behavior, aren't you?

As far as mocking is concerned, everyone has a right to behave badly in real life if they choose to. The thing is, others usually act badly in return. What is the good of that? Does it change anything? Dawkins thinks people like me are full of crap, I get that. He has every right to his opinion.
No, he doesn't think that people like you are full of crap. He does think that some of your religious beliefs might be crappy, however. There is a difference between mocking believers and mocking their beliefs. The former may be considered unacceptable behavior, but everyone engages in the latter, including you.

What I believe is going to happen is many Atheists are going to start pushing others real hard. When this happens, others may push back. Someone will get hurt and things will get out of hand.

Perhaps we should have a religious war in this country and the last person standing can have things their way.
I'm not sure where you are coming from on this. Are you expecting to stop the atheism movement in its tracks by telling outspoken people to stop speaking out? Not only is that unlikely to work, but surely you must realize that atheists have been pushed very hard and very openly by theists for centuries. I don't see why people of faith cannot sit still when their faith is being challenged and respond calmly to the criticism. A great many do. I think that Dawkins is very courageous to speak out as openly as he does. If we can't have open debates on religion and politics in public, then what does that say about us?

Or, we could just respect differences of opinion and enjoy spirited debate with a degree of mutual civility.
A much preferred solution.

I don't have a problem with how others think until they start telling me how I should think. Now we have a big problem. Just imagine if I was to drag Dawkins into church and beat the crap out of him until he got himself "saved".

Does anyone think that would fly?
Why would we? Nobody is trying to drag you out of church and beat the crap out of you until you come to reject religion.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Veritas liberabit vos

Do you really think mocking and ridicule will stop liars or the ignorant or do you think it only makes you feel better?
I really think that you ought to watch at least some of the Dawkins video that cablescavenger posted a link to. Dawkins goes into great detail on just what he hopes the ridicule and mockery to accomplish, especially at the beginning of the video. He quite emphatically rejects ridiculing people, as opposed to beliefs. He does not think such tactics are effective with those who hold the beliefs. And he has plenty of examples of other people who use ridicule as a rhetorical device. There are a lot of people out there who live in glass houses.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
I really think that you ought to watch at least some of the Dawkins video that cablescavenger posted a link to. Dawkins goes into great detail on just what he hopes the ridicule and mockery to accomplish, especially at the beginning of the video. He quite emphatically rejects ridiculing people, as opposed to beliefs. He does not think such tactics are effective with those who hold the beliefs. And he has plenty of examples of other people who use ridicule as a rhetorical device. There are a lot of people out there who live in glass houses.

I did, plus have read the speech. Have you read my numerous posts why I believe mocking and ridicule are poor leadership and persuasion techniques? How, if your goal is to persuade, that there are better ways of doing so? How mocking, derision, ridiculing, verbally abusing and other such tactics are more likely to divide than unite?
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I did, plus have read the speech. Have you read my numerous posts why I believe mocking and ridicule are poor leadership and persuasion techniques? How, if your goal is to persuade, that there are better ways of doing so? How mocking, derision, ridiculing, verbally abusing and other such tactics are more likely to divide than unite?
RW, I have seen a lot of academic debates, and I agree with Dawkins that mockery and ridicule are powerful rhetorical techniques. We all use those techniques, and I don't think that you are unique in avoiding them. Academics say provocative things all the time as a way of getting people to react and think about controversial subjects. It is ironic that so much criticism of this type comes from people who love to mock and ridicule Dawkins, as if they were immune from their own criticism.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
RW, I have seen a lot of academic debates, and I agree with Dawkins that mockery and ridicule are powerful rhetorical techniques.

Powerful, yes, but not the most effective nor, IMO, desirable technique.

Take Behavioral Modification techniques. A fast method is punishment, but in the long run positive reinforcement is the best method.

If the goal is to educate people and persuade them to 1) think for themselves 2) stop repressing those who disagree with their religious opinions and 3) keep our government(s) secular, is ticking off 9 out of 10 Americans really the smartest way to go?

More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God
More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.

Despite the many changes that have rippled through American society over the last 6 ½ decades, belief in God as measured in this direct way has remained high and relatively stable. Gallup initially used this question wording in November 1944, when 96% said "yes." That percentage dropped to 94% in 1947, but increased to 98% in several Gallup surveys conducted in the 1950s and 1960s. Gallup stopped using this question format in the 1960s, before including it again in Gallup's May 5-8 survey this year.

In 1976, Gallup began using a slightly different question format to measure belief in a deity -- "Do you believe in God or a universal spirit?" -- and found that 94% of Americans agreed. That percentage stayed fairly steady through 1994, and is at 91% in the May 2011 survey.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Powerful, yes, but not the most effective nor, IMO, desirable technique.
We all have our opinions. It can be effective, depending on what you are trying to achieve. I think that Dawkins explained very well why he thought it was effective.

Take Behavioral Modification techniques. A fast method is punishment, but in the long run positive reinforcement is the best method.
I'm not sure what this has to do with ridicule as a rhetorical device. The point of ridicule is quite often to provoke discussion. Teachers use it all the time.

If the goal is to educate people and persuade them to 1) think for themselves 2) stop repressing those who disagree with their religious opinions and 3) keep our government(s) secular, is ticking off 9 out of 10 Americans really the smartest way to go?

More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God
Are you seriously trying to use statistics to prove that religious belief in America has been stable since the early 1990s? Good luck with that. The demographic trends seem to show a large drop in younger generations. The US is following in the footsteps of Europe in those trends. Anyway, statistical arguments of this source have little to do with whether Dawkins is effective or not. I suspect that his rise in popularity is largely driven by the rise in atheism rather than the reverse. He is part of a feedback loop in modern intellectual climate change.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
So when I meet somebody who claims to be religious, my first impulse is: “I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you until you tell me do you really believe — for example, if they say they are Catholic — do you really believe that when a priest blesses a wafer it turns into the body of Christ? Are you seriously telling me you believe that? Are you seriously saying that wine turns into blood?” Mock them! Ridicule them! In public!
Don’t fall for the convention that we’re all too polite to talk about religion. Religion is not off the table. Religion is not off limits.


Religion makes specific claims about the universe which need to be substantiated and need to be challenged and, if necessary, need to be ridiculed with contempt.
Reading this just solidifies further the fact that Dawkins has a VERY limited understanding of religion. He seems to be under the impression that only the superstitious and completely ignorant are truly religious, which is a violation of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Religion also does not necessarily make claims about the universe; people who interpret mythology as literal history do. (I do wonder how many Catholics actually believe the sacred wine actually turns to Christ's blood, or the sacred bread actually turns to Christ's flesh.)

I do agree that atheists/nonreligious people need to be more open about their beliefs, and I look forward to the day that they can do so without fear. Atheists are all too often ridiculed in public, so I think this is sort of a way of getting back at some people. Therefore, I can't really say I'm against the idea, as long as those doing so remain aware that simply having religious beliefs is not automatically worth ridicule. I also think those who do so should explain WHY they feel such ideas are worth ridicule.

But I do agree that religion should not be the taboo subject that it is; public discussion and debate about it should be FAR more commonplace than it is.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Are you seriously trying to use statistics to prove that religious belief in America has been stable since the early 1990s?

I'm sorry you have no faith in science. Let me put it another way. I come from a military background and any good military leader knows only a fool attacks their allies when they are already heavily outnumbered.

I have no desire to see my government come even more under the thumb of people with a religious agenda as we've seen happen since the 1980 election. People such as yourself, Richard Dawkins and anyone else who think creating even greater divides between people attending the self-named "Reason Rally" and the majority of Americans is helping are, IMO, dead wrong. It's antagonistic and does nothing to promote secular government.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
Reading this just solidifies further the fact that Dawkins has a VERY limited understanding of religion.

Sorry, but Dawkins has a better understanding of religions than most here combined. He writes books on the subject and does a lot of research as a result.

I see you have a blog.
 
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