Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'm still waiting for evidence that the U.S. is founded as a Christian nation or upon Christian values. It's well established that the U.S. is founded upon English common law, Roman law, Greek politics and concepts from the Iriquois.

We don't need evidence that the founders were merely Christians.

The first settlers of both north and south America and settlers for the next two hundred years were almost exclusively from "Christian " Europe.
Their in-built ethics were based on their Christian background, they knew no other ethic.
The Foundation of the USA was a slow process as new states were added to the founding ones. Though all these had the same "European Christian" background.

The first laws were based on the English common law, It self primarily based on Church law and the remaining Norman Saxon and Norse laws that had survived for many hundreds of years of English religious and legal upheaval. But it still clearly and demonstrably "Christian"

The USA became a "Christian nation by default" There was no other substantial ethical or religious heritage at play.

 

[gnomon]

The first settlers of both north and south America and settlers for the next two hundred years were almost exclusively from "Christian " Europe.
Their in-built ethics were based on their Christian background, they knew no other ethic.
The Foundation of the USA was a slow process as new states were added to the founding ones. Though all these had the same "European Christian" background.

The first laws were based on the English common law, It self primarily based on Church law and the remaining Norman Saxon and Norse laws that had survived for many hundreds of years of English religious and legal upheaval. But it still clearly and demonstrably "Christian"

The USA became a "Christian nation by default" There was no other substantial ethical or religious heritage at play.

What parts of English Common Law are grounded in Christian theology? Not stare decisis. English Common Law came to prominence in response to Church Law primarily over the issue of inheritance. Opposing the official Church's view on inheritance the English relied upon pre-Christian concepts.

Yes, the settlers were from Christian Europe. Settlers from various faiths. Various competing concepts of virtue as well. Which ones were Christians? The Puritans who persecuted others or those who established separate colonies to escape the Puritans. People keep talking of Christian values but forget that the numerous different cultures shared different values. I already pointed out earlier the State of Virginia with it's Anglican Church persecuting those of other faiths. Up until the moment of revolution and individuals such as Madison and Jefferson doing what they could to remove the ecclesiastical from the civil.

As of yet in this thread no one has been able to actually name Christian values that define the United States. Values have names.

 

[gnomon]

There are documents, by the way, that show us much of what the reasoning behind independence was and that will give an idea of what the "foundation" of this country actually is. What that document is not is the Declaration of Independence. That document was really just a formality.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What parts of English Common Law are grounded in Christian theology? Not stare decisis. English Common Law came to prominence in response to Church Law primarily over the issue of inheritance. Opposing the official Church's view on inheritance the English relied upon pre-Christian concepts.

Yes, the settlers were from Christian Europe. Settlers from various faiths. Various competing concepts of virtue as well. Which ones were Christians? The Puritans who persecuted others or those who established separate colonies to escape the Puritans. People keep talking of Christian values but forget that the numerous different cultures shared different values. I already pointed out earlier the State of Virginia with it's Anglican Church persecuting those of other faiths. Up until the moment of revolution and individuals such as Madison and Jefferson doing what they could to remove the ecclesiastical from the civil.

As of yet in this thread no one has been able to actually name Christian values that define the United States. Values have names.

English Church law is only loosely based on theology, and the authority of the Anglican church was/is statutory, and covered the cure of all souls in England ( of every faith)

Inheritance laws are still changing, and are not particularly prominent in England in regard to our common law, which still pervades every aspect of our legal system.

The First settlers in the Americas were either adventurers, missionaries or a combination of both. Later emigrants from Europe were often evading the established churches of their countries. They were all "Christian" with Christian values, although they often followed diametrically opposed theologies. later 16th and 17th century emigrants often followed the newer Unitarian or even neo-atheist views, but had still been educated into the universal Christian Ethic.

The Melting pot of these people in the Mid 16th century were the ones who fought for Independence and were predominately from a solid Christian background.
A minority of those living in America at that time fought for Independence. ( had the war been decided by popular vote it may never had been fought.)

Values can have names, as can ethics... those followed by Christians have not changed.
Though laws and customs have.

Entire books have been written on Christian values and ethics, I for one am not about to attempt listing them.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The beauty of our government as it was envisioned by the Founding Fathers is that you are not forced to adhere to any faith, regardless of their beliefs. However that doesn't negate the impact that their personal belief systems, including their spiritual beliefs, had on their formation of our government.

They were highly principled men.

I think there is no way that Christianity could have not played a large roll in the formation of this country. Just because the enlightenment was an by-product of Christianity. It was and is part of the evolution of thought in the western world. It also needs to be recognized that todays Christian fundamentalist would completely reject the brand of religion of many of our founding fathers (Except for Washington because he was silent). They would not call them Christian. They rejected of the divinity of Christ, and the inerrancy of the Bible. So lots of the folks who are yelling loudest that this is a Christian country would completely reject the faith of our first few presidents. I do not believe that Jefferson or Adams could be elected today because of the things they have put in writing.

Also as big of influence of thought on the start of our government is the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. This Confederacy was set up by a native Holy man named Dekanawida a few 100 years before the founding of our country. I would say that he had as big of influence on our form of government as Christianity. He just dosnt get any credit.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There are documents, by the way, that show us much of what the reasoning behind independence was and that will give an idea of what the "foundation" of this country actually is. What that document is not is the Declaration of Independence. That document was really just a formality.

The run up to independence is well recorded and shows that very little thought was given to what was to come next. True some were very concerned about it, and how they would relate to the new "establishment"
It was more about "out with the old" than "in with the new"

It has been rationalised since to give a more edifying light on it.

(It is much like when the Duke of Normandy invaded England "The winner made the rules and wrote the history".
Even to this day the "English" do not identify with being Norman. They simply absorbed them.)

After independence, the Americans had no choice but to establish a new framework of government. They did not acquire a new Ethic or set of Values, they were to use those that they were born into, which was predominantly Christian.

 

[McBell]

Entire books have been written on Christian values and ethics, I for one am not about to attempt listing them.

And yet with all those Christian values you claim exist you cannot even present one that defines the United States?

 

[work in progress]

I think there is no way that Christianity could have not played a large roll in the formation of this country. Just because the enlightenment was an by-product of Christianity. It was and is part of the evolution of thought in the western world. It also needs to be recognized that todays Christian fundamentalist would completely reject the brand of religion of many of our founding fathers (Except for Washington because he was silent). They would not call them Christian. They rejected of the divinity of Christ, and the inerrancy of the Bible. So lots of the folks who are yelling loudest that this is a Christian country would completely reject the faith of our first few presidents. I do not believe that Jefferson or Adams could be elected today because of the things they have put in writing.

The thread title:"Is The U.S. Founded On "Christian Principles"" reminded me of this post I read yesterday by David Sirota for Alternet:

The Wild Hypocrisy of America's Conservative Christians


In Britain, the devout tend to be economic progressives. Why have American Christians embraced social Darwinism?

Here's a newspaper headline that might induce a disbelieving double take: "Christians 'More Likely to Be Leftwing' And Have Liberal Views on Immigration and Equality." Sounds too hard to believe, right? Well, it's true -- only not here in America, but in the United Kingdom.


​

That first paragraph reminded me of how insular American conservative Christians are in their thinking about what is and what is not "Christian." As the rest of Sirota's article notes, American fundamentalists are poles apart from fundamentalist Christians in other parts of the world on many economic and social issues.

In a nutshell, it seems to me that the drift started way back before the founding of the Nation, when the Puritans arrived and started setting up colonies. They began with a sense of "Manifest Destiny" -- that the new land was a Promised Land, given to them by God, and that doctrine was used to justify the ethnic cleansing of natives afterwards, and even the taking of lesser peoples in slavery. The same kind of thinking is found in Mormonism, Zionism (whether Jewish or Christian), and the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa of the Dutch Afrikaanders.

In more recent times, Sirota notes that fiscal conservative thinking did an about-face sometime after the era of William Jennings Bryant -- when being Christian conservative meant disparaging the wealthy and the materialistic as godlessness to the full-blown acceptance of Ayn Rand social darwinism. Interesting to note that the so called "brain" of the Republican Party in Congress - Paul Ryan, is reported to demand that potential staffers have to read Rand's "Atlas Shrugged." He doesn't ask them to read the Bible....no he wants them to read the objectivists and libertarians bible to get the proper philosophical grounding on economic and fiscal issues. So, can we say now that for the most part, American conservatives have created their own religion? Or their own version of Christianity? That's the way it would appear if we compare what they believe about money and economics with what it says in their Bible on these matters.

Also as big of influence of thought on the start of our government is the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. This Confederacy was set up by a native Holy man named Dekanawida a few 100 years before the founding of our country. I would say that he had as big of influence on our form of government as Christianity. He just dosnt get any credit.

Even though I have Mohawk blood in my lineage from my father's family, I am a little dubious of taking this claim that the the U.S. federation is based on the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy. No doubt, the Colonials were well aware of Confederacy and some leaders took the time to learn about the Iroquois, since there survival in Up State New York depended on having good relations with them. But, as far as I am aware, there is no direct connection between Jefferson and other F.F.'s, and the Confederacy framework, although there are a number of historians who argue that the similar elements indicate this influence, even if it was not attributed to the Iroquois.

 

[gnomon]

The run up to independence is well recorded and shows that very little thought was given to what was to come next. True some were very concerned about it, and how they would relate to the new "establishment"
It was more about "out with the old" than "in with the new"

It has been rationalised since to give a more edifying light on it.

(It is much like when the Duke of Normandy invaded England "The winner made the rules and wrote the history".
Even to this day the "English" do not identify with being Norman. They simply absorbed them.)

After independence, the Americans had no choice but to establish a new framework of government. They did not acquire a new Ethic or set of Values, they were to use those that they were born into, which was predominantly Christian.

There was a reason for independence. The First Continental Congress explicitly laid out there grievances with the Crown. They included issues of taxation, trail by jury, standing armies, religious persecution, the right to participate in legislation, etc. These are the values which the revolution was founded upon against, of all things, a state which was a religious backed political empire.

You state that the colonists were from religious nations with Christian values. England was one of those nations. If there is a long tradition of these Christian values that were the foundations of the European governments and they fought a revolution to get away from these values which of these values are considered Christian and which are not?

I contend that the values that comprise the rational for revolution and the values they were fighting against have little to do with Christianity. We can see the same conflicts through the history of the world. Republicanism predates the birth of Jesus. Split rule between a representation of different classes predates Christianity. Private property is a concept found outside of Christian ethics. As far as law we can look back to Judaic law, Roman law and Islamic law having an influence on Western legal systems. English Common Law derives concepts having little to do with the words of Jesus or the theological concepts of Christianity.

It should not be that difficult to put forth at least one value that is unique to the concept of Christianity and argue for it being an important concept in either the founding of the United States or at least it's early development.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The Wild But, as far as I am aware, there is no direct connection between Jefferson and other F.F.'s, and the Confederacy framework, although there are a number of historians who argue that the similar elements indicate this influence, even if it was not attributed to the Iroquois.

Some believe it was Benjamin Franklin who was influenced.

Smithsonian Source

The two systems were somewhat alike. I can't see how it was not an influence but maybe my earlier post was an exaggeration.

 

[Sunstone]

I think there is no way that Christianity could have not played a large roll in the formation of this country. Just because the enlightenment was an by-product of Christianity. It was and is part of the evolution of thought in the western world.

I think a study of the European Enlightenment will discover that in many ways, the Enlightenment was a reaction against Christianity. The rejection of what were then known as Christian values seems to me much more than "a by product" of Christianity.

For instance, it was perceived by most thinkers of the time that blind, unquestioning obedience to tradition was a Christian (i.e. religious) value. The Enlightenment, on the contrary, sought to oppose that value with the new, enlightened notion that traditions -- no matter how old and venerable -- must have a rational basis.

Moreover, the Enlightenment followed -- and was to some great extent a consequence of -- the "Rebirth" or Renaissance of, not Christian, but classical Greek and Roman humanism and learning.

Last, we have the considerable influence on the Enlightenment of science. In fact, I don't think you can discuss the Enlightenment without discussing the rise of science, and the infusion of scientific values into the European cultures. But science has no origins whatsoever in Christianity. That is, it in no way evolves from Christianity, nor is it in any way is a by-product of Christianity. Instead its roots trace back to the ancient Greek philosophers.

For those and for other reasons, I would urge you to read up on the European Enlightenment before offering the opinion that the Enlightenment was "a by-product of Christianity".

 

[Me Myself]

I don´t think he meant "european" "E"nlightment. I think he meant enlightment as an acknowledgement of good qualities/wisdom that a human being can have in general.

If he did, then I understand his point and wholeheartedly agree.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm also curious to hear what other countries were founded on the same Christian values.

Which the specific values have yet to be listed btw....

 

[Desert Snake]

Sure, somewhat, and you would have to define "Christian Values" anyway, I mean, if you ask a devout catholic what "Christian values are, you'll probably get quite a different answer than say if you asked a liberal Protestant. It all depends on definitions here.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'm also curious to hear what other countries were founded on the same Christian values.

Which the specific values have yet to be listed btw....

As far as I can see no European country, that exists to day, did so before Christianity.

Though some have similar names, they are all either new combinations, different territories and borders, or collections of many sovereign states like Germany.
Also like Germany, many have been "Founded" many times,with new constitutions and agendas.

Even "Italy " the most "Christian centre" of all, was a collection of states. who regularly fought each other.

Christian values have never interfered to the extent of preventing wars of any kind.
Most states are defined by the result of such wars.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

And yet with all those Christian values you claim exist you cannot even present one that defines the United States?

Of course not...
No country's birth can be defined by a single value, Christian or otherwise.

To day it would be easiest to define America by the value of the Dollar.

 

[Kathryn]

There is a difference between a VALUE and an action. Values are goals and ideals. We all have them, and strive toward them whether we classify them as Christian or secular or humanistic or whatever.

We all also fall short of our goals.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think for me it's debatable and difficult to pin down since if we look to the people who founded the country, and not the ideas, we can find more than Christianity as major influences on the foundation of this country.

The founding members were men. Is the U.S. founded on male values?

They were of European descent. Is the U.S. founded on European values?

They also owned slaves. Is the U.S. founded on slaveowner values?

 

[Jacksnyte]

I can say with definite certainty that the USA was not founded on Christian values. In fact, a good many of the founding fathers found Christianity extremely distasteful. They wanted to get away from the theocracies of Europe.

Not a US citizen, but I can´t think of a reason why you could say it is founded on christian values more than founded on plain "humanist" values.

I wonder how many of you think it is founded on christian values, and cause of my political and legal ignorance, also wondering if you do have good reasons and I am nuts

So, anxious to hear o.o

Why do you think US is founded on christian values? or why not?

 

[Jacksnyte]

But there were documents prior to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution that played a role in the development of our government and many of them included references to God as well.

Yes, and if you look closer, the "god" they are referring to is clearly stated as the god of nature. No-where do they ever mention a specific god, christian or otherwise. A large number of the founders were Deist, not Christian.