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Worship and salvation

Me Myself

Back to my username
"We're getting ready to perform worship of Lord Indra," Nanda said.

"Lord Indra?"

"Yes, son. Indra is the king of the demigods and he brings the rain. We have to make sure that we thank him every year for helping us."

"But why do we have to thank him? Isn't it his duty to make the rain? After all, he is a servant of the Almighty and that is the job the Almighty gave him."

Nanda looked at Krishna with wide eyes. "Shhhh! You mustn't say things like that, Krishna. Lord Indra's wrath can be terrible."

"Are you frightened of him, Father?"

"Of course! Everyone is frightened of him. With one move he could destroy all Vraj."

Several of the village people murmured agreements as they worked near Krishna and Nanda.

Krishna looked around at them. "But surely someone with such a terrible temper is not worthy of worship. It's not good to be angry."

Nanda reached out and covered Krishna's mouth. "We have to be very careful when talking about Indra. He will punish us all."

Krishna moved his father's hand away. "But that's not right. No god should be worshipped out of fear. If Indra was truly praise-worthy then he wouldn't punish people for not worshipping him. It is the divine right of all to pray but it is not the duty of the gods to compel worship."

"Krishna, what do you propose we do?" one of the other village men asked. He was leaning on his staff. "Do we stop worshipping Indra just because you say so? This is our ancestral custom."

"But why? If Indra brings the rain then that is his duty, not his mercy. And if he is a tyrant and expects worship from us then that is not admirable.Only those who are kind and worthy deserve worship."

A crowd was growing around them as people came to hear what Krishna was saying.

"And who is worthy then, my darling?" Yashoda asked. She was walking towards them from the barn, carrying a pot of fresh milk.

"We are cowherds, Mother. Our lives are tied to the cows. They give us milk and butter that nourishes us. They plough the land that grows our grain and give rich fertiliser that keeps the land lush. So worship the cows, Mother."

Krishna continued. "And the cows cannot live without the forests, where they graze. So worship the forests of Vraj. And worship the river Yamuna who waters the trees with her nectar, keeping the forests green and bountiful. And worship Mount Govardhan, who brings rain by catching the clouds, filling all our ponds and wells and lakes. So many fruits and herbs grow from his gracious soil that are vital to our good health."

Krishna looked around at the people who were listening in silence. "Mount Govardhan does all this for us but have you ever heard him demand worship in return? Does he punish anyone for not worshipping him? Or are the cows vengeful or angry? Or Yamuna? Do the forests threaten us with violence if we don't repay them for their service? No. They are not selfish or petty. They are generous and pure hearted and they love us. That is why they take care of us."

The crowd was larger still, all of the villagers gazing at Krishna in wonderment that he was so passionate about this subject.

"Don't be afraid of Indra's anger," Krishna told them. "One who is worthy of worship never gets angry."

"But how do we worship the cows and Mount Govardhan?" Another lady asked. She was holding a pot of water on her head and had paused in her way across the courtyard to hear Krishna's speech.

"We already worship the cows, sister," Krishna said. "We return the love they give us by caring for them and ensuring they're always protected. The forests and Yamuna are worshipped by keeping them clean and clear of pollutants. Mount Govardhan can be worshipped through offering. If we give a little of our bounty back to him then that is a form of thanks. It will re-nourish the land that gives us so much."

We all know that the OT God said many times that he was a jelous God. Abarahamic values favour to worship this deity out of love BUT if that doesn´t work, there is also another alternative which is invariably presented to us: to worship him out of fear.

To "Fear God", a phrase still used today as if it was a virtue.

so many abrahamically oriented worshippers (WARNING: I didn´t say all) say you cannot be an atheist, or a not-my-religion-ist and be in God´s grace at the same time. As if Love itself wasn´t worship. Isn´t God supposed to BE love? then how can a person that is loving not be accepting God? Worshipping him by the mere use of their divinely given faculties?

Why is it so important that those who don´t believe or that believed a deity different than yours (and lets say), the one that actually is real , be tortured inhell for ever? How can there be wisdom in it? Why would God want to eternally torture those who got the wrong name for him? the wrong form/lack-of-form ? The wrong rituals for worship? Body gestures for worship? The wrong divine fact of wheter 2000 years ago a woman was a virgin or not? wheter a specific man was telling the truth or not about a divine revelation?

So many religions say the same things to be divine, we know the golden rule has sprung from so many places and cultures that is not in some silly texts, but hardwired in our souls.

Balaram, Krishna's elder brother, raised his massive fist. "Then we will fight him! We have you on our side. We have your divine discus weapon. We will win every time!"

"Not all opponents are worthy of my discus, Elder Brother," Krishna said. "And even then it is not easy to kill Jarasanth. He is too powerful and has too many allies. It will be a long time before we can apply enough pressure to break through his defenses."

"We'll still win," Balaram insisted.

"And how many of our men's lives are we willing to lose in the meantime?" Krishna asked. "How many of our women are we willing to make widows? All because Jarasanth wants to kill me?"

One of the generals shook his grey head. "It's not that simple-"

"Yes, it is," Krishna said. "Hasn't our motherland suffered enough? Mathura's people have been oppressed for far too many years. It is not right that they must fend off Jarasanth as well."

"The people are proud to fight for you, Krishna," a courtier in blue robes said. "You are their saviour. For you, they are willing to die."

"But I want them to live," Krishna said. "I want them to prosper, in peace. Which isn't possible here in Mathura."

"So you propose to run away?" Balaram snapped. "Like a coward?"

Krishna's father Vasudev was grave. "The world will call you 'Ranchod', son. 'He who runs from battle'. Are you willing to allow your name to be slurred?"

Krishna shook his head. "For my motherland I killed my uncle Kansa. If by my moving to a new land I can bring our people peace and prosperity then I am willing to do it. I am willing to do whatever is necessary for Mathura. I am even willing to take the name 'Ranchod'."

The court appeared dumbfounded by this announcement.

"After all," Krishna said, looking upon them all, "I am known by many names. Through time people will call me by many other names. And always, no matter what name they call me by, if I feel I am being called with love then I will answer."

Who cares the name?

God should be deeper than that. God should be love. And if he is not, the he is not worthy of worship. To be by his side eternally while millions of people with good actions and wrong names suffer, can never be called salvation.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Great thread! I don't have time to contribute right now but I loved reading the passages you included.

"After all," Krishna said, looking upon them all, "I am known by many names. Through time people will call me by many other names. And always, no matter what name they call me by, if I feel I am being called with love then I will answer."

And I also will say that I agree with the idea that a tyrant is not worthy of worship.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So picture the opportunity to be face to face with God....yes you can.

Gonna stand in His presence?...or drop to your knees?

When face to face with the Almighty, worship might well be reflex.

And His name is sacred. It belongs to Him.
Are you willing to use it, as if it belongs to you?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I am face to face to God. My body is his/hers. It makes no change if I am in my knees or not. You stand on his pressence all the time to. Or do you think he hides when you stand?

Is not a sin to stand, as it is also our divine right to kneel.

And what is the "name" of God? is it a mere sound? a frecuency in the air? or is it happiness itself, is it the love you show to your brothers and sisters?

Given that I feel love, I know God shares his/her love with me. Loving is all the worship in the world, as so is spreading love is all the worship in the world. Love is his, but what is not? What does exist that is not his/hers for me to use it?

If I was limited to only use what is not of God, I wouldn´t even use oxygen to animate my body.

That would be insulting him, as he has given me both air and love to use as gifts.

Why should we renounce his gifts? who benefits? how would that make our loving Father/Mother happy?
 

Vultar

Active Member
Just a few points to note:

God is supposed to be "perfect" according to the followers
Jealousy is a flaw
Therefore the entity claiming to be "a jealous god" could not possibly be a god due to the imperfection of being jealous

So even in their own writtings, they prove they are following an evil spirit but for some reason, seem to be blind to it (maybe it is just wishful thinking on their part)

Hint: Good does not need to be worshipped. Evil needs to be worshipped
(it is an ego thing, good doesn't have a huge ego - perfection has no ego)

__________________

Disclaimer: I don't expect anyone to believe what I write.... I'm just a messenger.... :D
 

idea

Question Everything
...To be by his side eternally while millions of people with good actions and wrong names suffer, can never be called salvation.
We believe that we are the true church, but we do not condemn others to hell. We believe that everyone will be judged according to what they know, and believe everyone should follow the dictates of their own conscience, which is the light of Christ, and is given to everyone.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I am face to face to God. My body is his/hers. It makes no change if I am in my knees or not. You stand on his pressence all the time to. Or do you think he hides when you stand?

Is not a sin to stand, as it is also our divine right to kneel.

And what is the "name" of God? is it a mere sound? a frecuency in the air? or is it happiness itself, is it the love you show to your brothers and sisters?

Given that I feel love, I know God shares his/her love with me. Loving is all the worship in the world, as so is spreading love is all the worship in the world. Love is his, but what is not? What does exist that is not his/hers for me to use it?

If I was limited to only use what is not of God, I wouldn´t even use oxygen to animate my body.

That would be insulting him, as he has given me both air and love to use as gifts.

Why should we renounce his gifts? who benefits? how would that make our loving Father/Mother happy?

We might then discuss kneeling....
Having been raised orthodox catholic...I did a lot of it.

When peace is secured, it is often accomplished by force.
Different lines of thought and feeling result in different life styles and behavior.
The differences result in strife.
The questions then rises...whose will is greatest?...how shall we abide?

When you place one knee (or both) you have surrendered your sword...
and your will.

If God and the angels consider the Name to be sacred...
you will abide accordingly...or face renewed opposition to your presence.

You know this is true....as your post signifies the possibility.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Just a few points to note:

God is supposed to be "perfect" according to the followers
Jealousy is a flaw
Therefore the entity claiming to be "a jealous god" could not possibly be a god due to the imperfection of being jealous

So even in their own writtings, they prove they are following an evil spirit but for some reason, seem to be blind to it (maybe it is just wishful thinking on their part)

Hint: Good does not need to be worshipped. Evil needs to be worshipped
(it is an ego thing, good doesn't have a huge ego - perfection has no ego)

__________________

Disclaimer: I don't expect anyone to believe what I write.... I'm just a messenger.... :D

If your last statement was correct...then all forms of religious action are evil.

That would include building churches, temples, designating religious turf, sanctuaries, etc...etc..etc...

Then also any deed done with God in mind....

Perhaps you could consider worship as that which you are willing to surrender to God?
Would that much include.... yourself?

And if you surrender any portion of yourself to anything else.....
Have you not lied to God?.....true faith being, faithful to one and only one.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
And if you surrender any portion of yourself to anything else.....
Have you not lied to God?.....true faith being, faithful to one and only one.

Do you surrender yourself to beliefs?

Do you surrender yourself to sounds? (like the sound "Jesus" or "Jehova")

Wouldn´t it be much more close to the core of God´s nature to simply surrender yourself to love? To goodness in itself, including the goodness done by those who have completely different beliefs than you, as long as that goodness was done by Goodness sake? (and as such you may read for God´s sake)

We believe that we are the true church, but we do not condemn others to hell. We believe that everyone will be judged according to what they know, and believe everyone should follow the dictates of their own conscience, which is the light of Christ, and is given to everyone.

At least for what I read there, it sounds nice ;)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Do you surrender yourself to beliefs?

Do you surrender yourself to sounds? (like the sound "Jesus" or "Jehova")

Wouldn´t it be much more close to the core of God´s nature to simply surrender yourself to love? To goodness in itself, including the goodness done by those who have completely different beliefs than you, as long as that goodness was done by Goodness sake? (and as such you may read for God´s sake)

At least for what I read there, it sounds nice ;)

Surrender to sound?...like someone humming in meditation?....nay.

Surrender to love sounds nice.
But I think of love as a discipline.

Gotta be careful what you do with it.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
So picture the opportunity to be face to face with God....yes you can.

Gonna stand in His presence?...or drop to your knees?

When face to face with the Almighty, worship might well be reflex.

And His name is sacred. It belongs to Him.
Are you willing to use it, as if it belongs to you?

I am willing to show that he gave me His name, and I am an attribute to Him.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Surrender to sound?...like someone humming in meditation?....nay.

Surrender to love sounds nice.
But I think of love as a discipline.

Gotta be careful what you do with it.

Nice, then you understand that many sounds can carry the same Godly essence and intent. be it Shiva, Krishna, Jesus, peace, love or you-name-it :)
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You raise some interesting points. There are important reasons to know the true God and worship only him. Jesus Christ worshipped only the true God. God will not literally torment anyone in hellfire. That revolting teaching is not in the Bible, but borrowed by false "Christians" from pagan religions.
Still God wants us to know the truth about him. As a loving parent, does it make a difference to you whether your children know you as you really are? Or would you be content if they believed you to be a cruel tyrant who arbitrarily punishes without reason or cause?
Early in man's history, a wicked spirit lied about God, and Satan has been lying ever since. (John 8:44) He desires the worship that belongs only to the true God, Jehovah. And he uses false gods to channel worship away from the true God. Thus, 1 Corinthians 10:20,21 states: "The things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons."
I believe false teachings such as hellfire originate with wicked spirits or demons, who are bent on turning people away from the true God. These wicked spirits are cruel and dangerous. That is why the loving warnings in the Bible to avoid false worship. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

 

beerisit

Active Member
You raise some interesting points. There are important reasons to know the true God and worship only him. Jesus Christ worshipped only the true God. God will not literally torment anyone in hellfire. That revolting teaching is not in the Bible, but borrowed by false "Christians" from pagan religions.
Still God wants us to know the truth about him. As a loving parent, does it make a difference to you whether your children know you as you really are? Or would you be content if they believed you to be a cruel tyrant who arbitrarily punishes without reason or cause?
Early in man's history, a wicked spirit lied about God, and Satan has been lying ever since. (John 8:44) He desires the worship that belongs only to the true God, Jehovah. And he uses false gods to channel worship away from the true God. Thus, 1 Corinthians 10:20,21 states: "The things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons."
I believe false teachings such as hellfire originate with wicked spirits or demons, who are bent on turning people away from the true God. These wicked spirits are cruel and dangerous. That is why the loving warnings in the Bible to avoid false worship. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

That would seem to prove that worshiping nothing is the only right path, since you don't know that you aren't worshiping satan either.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That would seem to prove that worshiping nothing is the only right path, since you don't know that you aren't worshiping satan either.

One does not have to overtly worship Satan to come under his control. The Bible says that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19)
It also says that "Satan...is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation 12:9) When we find the truth about God, I believe the effect is as stated in Acts 26:18: "to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God."

 

beerisit

Active Member
One does not have to overtly worship Satan to come under his control. The Bible says that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19)
It also says that "Satan...is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation 12:9) When we find the truth about God, I believe the effect is as stated in Acts 26:18: "to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God."

Accordingly there is no reason to believe then that satan didn't have a hand in the construction of every holy book ever written. It would seem to make perfect sense that the being in control would be the one dictating any alleged divine message. Or did god just slip in a couple of hundred times when satan wasn't looking?
 
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