Was Jesus actually crucified?

[rsd]

Well since I am no scholar and I am not seeking to prove or disprove anything I found your story very interesting and entertaining. Some of the comments from your "admirers" were kinds funny too. Oh well, better than TV right now...

Blame it on the heat outside. It's frying my brain. I certainly never used Javier Sierra's book of fiction as a source of inspiration, here. I bought it because it is the only other book on the subject I could find. I simply wanted to find out more. Now the other book, THAT is more than worth reading. Absolutely thrilling, and I thought it provided a lot of ref. documents for those who wanted to dig deeper.

If there is a God then He is going to be very very interesting. In fact, by definition, how can "anyone" be more interesting. Well, for me, the story of Sister Maria certainly accomplishes the interesting part. She worshiped Jesus. Jesus Christ was her spiritual master. So, who is greater, the disciple or the master? If she could biolocate to Texas, then Jesus could certainly do the same and let those Roman fools have their fun.

There is also this record. Around 5000 years ago God danced upon the earth, just as some claim he did 500 years ago. The same God. Near a rural village on a moonlit night all the village maidens wanted to dance with Him, and He with them. So that every young girl could dance with Him, it is recorded that He expanded himself (bilocated) so that everyone could dance with Him. There is a commentary on this story where it is mentioned that Saints and angles can only bilocate 10 times at once but that God can bilocate as many times as He desires. There is another record from the same period where He bilocates over 100,000 times. These things are mentioned in the first canto of the Shrimad-bhagavatam. That is written in Sanskrit.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Blame it on the heat outside. ...

There is also this record. Around 5000 years ago God danced upon the earth, just as some claim he did 500 years ago. The same God.

 

[rsd]

What I like most about God is that, with God all things are possible. If you were to make a collection of all of these things, you could call them, "The Beautiful Stories of the Lord." But many people would ridicule much of it. Just mentioning some of the things I have, has brought about so much negativity. But again, for me, these incredible stories simply fall under the category of: "With God all things are possible." Take for example a certain staircase. The story of this staircase could be found in such a book: "The Beautiful Stories of the Lord." Let me see if I can post a picture of it. One moment while I try....

Ok, at least on my end I can see it.

So what you are seeing here is actually a miracle. Perhaps going back to the 1600s is too far in time. So here is something much more modern - built in the late 1870s. Good looking staircase. Just go to Santa Fe, New Mexico and you can see it at the Loretta Chapel. That is not the original name for the Catholic Church.

Here is what I have learned about this staircase. Sometime in the 1879s a new Catholic Church had been contracted out - to be built in Santa Fe. Above the altar the design called for a choir balcony, which was indeed built. So things were going along smoothly when all at once the head architect suddenly died. As others took charge, one day a horrible discovery was made: the deceased architect had for some unknown reason failed to put in his plans any staircase, whatsoever, for the nuns to climb up to the choir balcony to sing. This shocking news created all kinds of turmoil and accusations, but what could be done? The nuns refused all the standard solutions offered, deeming them to both ruin the style of the church and devour too much of the already limited inside space. Not giving up, the nuns decided to pray to Saint Joseph, who was a carpenter. They prayed for 9 days.

On the ninth day the nuns heard a knock and answering, discovered a man at the door. Aware of the divine circumstances unfolding before them, the nuns showed the stranger their problem, explaining everything to him.

The stranger told the nuns that he could build the staircase. His mule carried with him his hand tools. After many months what you see was built. Oddly, when the nuns tried to pay the man, as agreed upon, he had vanished. Soon people from all over the world started to examine the staircases. It was free standing (only later was it anchored to the wall); there are no nails, only a few wooden pegs; there was no hand rail (that was added much later) - and there is no center pole. Think apple peel staning on end. As a deeper examination into the construction was carried out, it was also discovered that the wood the man used was not even a local variety. It has also been determined that no ordinary human being could have possibly made this staircase. What kind of tools could he have had on the back of a donkey in 1870? The wood is not even from that part of New Mexico. The difficulty in its design staggering and defies all logic.

So this is what I like about God. All things are possible.

 

[fallingblood]

What I like most about God is that, with God all things are possible. If you were to make a collection of all of these things, you could call them,

If you are going to make incredible claims, you need to provide incredible evidence. I can make up any story and claim it as history. That doesn't mean it is. As it stands, the Star Wars saga has just as much evidence supporting it. And call me a geek, but it makes a much better story.

People make up stories. They exaggerate. Traditions get passed down and important points are lost, or other ideas are added. It simply is not convincing to tell us a story that seems like fiction, and ask us to believe it based on no actual proof. If I told you my best friend was a Wookie, and I flew a space ship, and while doing so, I met a young Jedi, you wouldn't believe it. And there is no reason to believe your story.

 

[rsd]

This is the difference between you and me. I just don't have your mentality. And this is why I told you about the staircase and even included a picture, where it is located, ...everything but the visiting hours. And the first thing you talk about is me making up some wild story with no facts. Whatever. I am ONLY repeating what I have heard. For me to twist things would be hellish. Like I said, we are different. When I heard this story my heart soared. I went out and bought a book and a movie about it. I am going to take my wife and visit it at the end of August. Not an ounce of negativity ruins the beauty of this story for me. I simply fold my hands and re-affirm my allegiance to God who is Almighty and all wonderful. The facts about Sister Maria are also plentiful and good enough for me. But I didn't by the books and read them twice seeking dirt. Marilyn did a great job in her book looking into every corner of that story. First hand interviews exist, the rosary beads that the indians had is fact, the 6000 indians walking behind a cross in San Angelo, TX is a fact, and within a few years [say around 1640] 80,000 Texas indians had been baptized. This is a fact. But eventually Spain left Texas. In the 1800s the U.S. government built Fort Concho in San Angelo to protect the "first" settlers from the savages. What irony. Fort Concho exist today. I have stood on the orginal ruins, seen the entire complex [reconstructed] and near my wife's-father's grave are dozens of tombstones of Fort Concho soldiers from the original period.

But I am curious, where do you feel safe and secure in your beliefs? What do you believe in?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is the difference between you and me. I just don't have your mentality.

:yes:

 

[rsd]

But I am curious, where do you feel safe and secure in your beliefs? What do you believe in?

 

[noh950]

I recently discovered a Catholic history dating back to around 1600 that strongly suggest to me that Jesus Christ was never even in the hands of his Roman tormentors, what to speak of being crucified. I wonder if this is something that anyone would even be interested in discussing.

Our belief, we Muslims, is that Jesus peace and blessing be upon him wasn't crusified.

In the Quran the Almighty God Has said : And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's massenger -they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who desagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain. (157) But Allah took him up to Himself. Allah was aver Mighty, Wise. (158)
(verse 157-158 ) ( Chapter 4)

 

[fallingblood]

But I am curious, where do you feel safe and secure in your beliefs? What do you believe in?

My beliefs are based on facts and research. That's why I feel secure in them. The one belief I have that is not based on evidence is my belief in God. And I accept that it is not a rational belief or one that I can support and thus don't argue about it. In fact, I recognize the possibility that I could be wrong and that a god may not exist. I have no problem with that.

The problem with your story is that it has no evidence. You can point to one book that was written by an amateur. That simply is not enough evidence. I can supply books on nearly any subject. In fact Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of Sherlock Holmes, wrote about fairies. Does that mean we should believe that as well?

As for the stairs. Yes it is beautiful but as the picture shows, nothing that couldn't be reproduced.

 

[fallingblood]

Just because nuns state something is true does not give it additional credibility. In fact their are stories of nuns who supposedly had virgin pregnancies. The nuns swore they never had male contact. Further research showed that in fact they had had sex. Many of the cases were priests who had been the fathers.

 

[rsd]

. You can point to one book that was written by an amateur.

As for the stairs. Yes it is beautiful but as the picture shows, nothing that couldn't be reproduced.

You say she is an amateur (Marilyn Fedwa). I just wish I had her education: "Fedewa has served as Vice President for Institutional Advancement for Olivet College, Michigan; held director positions within Michigan State University (MSU) Development; operated off- campus degree programs at Pepperdine University in Los Angeles; administered Headstart and daycare programs in upstate New York; and taught secondary and preschool."


Yet your mentality is calibrated so that you are easily able to degrade her in public as an amateur. And right, after being studied by architects all around the world who are left scratching their heads as they ponder the greatness of the staircase ...built without a single power tool or a single nail - with hand tools loaded on a mule in the 1870s, and out of wood that even the local lumber mills never stocked ....of course, nothing that couldn't be pounded together by any of your run of the mill carpenters that were wondering around New Mexico at that time. What to speak of the fact that he knocked on their door right on the ninth and final day of their 9-days of prayer.


You say that you believe God exists. I encourage you to become a bumblebee and seek honey, rather than be a fly. You are your blessings and the greatest blessing-buster is to have an acid tongue and attitude.


Yes, you are right. There are plenty examples of bogus people. Again, the difference is that when I heard about the staircase, I became elated and proud of God - instantly. There is not one shred of doubt in my heart or mind. But I'm no fool. I know about the things you talk about and sure, maybe that turns out to be the case. But why jump to a negative conclusion at the get-go. All that does is make you look like the amateur. And that, my friend, you are not.

 

[rsd]

Our belief, we Muslims, is that Jesus...wasn't crusified.

In the Quran the Almighty God Has said : And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's massenger -they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who desagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain. (157) But Allah took him up to Himself. Allah was aver Mighty, Wise. (158)
(verse 157-158 ) ( Chapter 4)

Thank you, I didn't know this. May God and peace be with you my friend.

 

[9Westy9]

My beliefs are based on facts and research. That's why I feel secure in them. The one belief I have that is not based on evidence is my belief in God. And I accept that it is not a rational belief or one that I can support and thus don't argue about it. In fact, I recognize the possibility that I could be wrong and that a god may not exist. I have no problem with that.

My thoughts exactly

 

[wayward_teen]

Obviously - the Indians in Texas carried around crosses before the Spanish missionaries arrived. And that freaked everyone out.

Then they held hands, ate apple pie, and played baseball. At the same time.

Jeez! You don't seem like a very nice Christian. You can tell somebody that you don't believe a story without criticizing them extensively and berating their attempt at polite discussion. You don't have a reason to be so sarcastic like that! :no: It makes coming to a religious forum like this seem very intimidating and unpleasant to people. Just try to tone down the sarcasm, please. I may be 16, but I'll play your mother if I need to.

As far I happen to believe that some kind of Jesus character was indeed crucified by Roman soldiers at some point in time. Based on records left by Josephus and other historians around that time period, I would say that I think this is fairly probable.
A question I find far more interesting is debating whether or not this Christ character was indeed resurrected.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jeez! You don't seem like a very nice Christian.

There's a thread for that.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...110532-tell-angellous-what-he-believes-8.html

If you want to be childish and attack my faith rather than address the topic, you can do it on a thread created for that purpose.

Don't pollute this one.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I may be 16, but I'll play your mother if I need to.

I'll play your daddy.

 

[rsd]

...I happen to believe that some kind of Jesus character was indeed crucified by Roman soldiers at some point in time. Based on records left by Josephus and other historians around that time period, I would say that I think this is fairly probable...A question I find far more interesting is debating whether or not this Christ character was indeed resurrected.

I was watching the TV last year and this guy was talking about being in Pakistan [a Muslim country] and sitting in a bar, noticed beer bottles with the label, "Mary Beer." He thought this very odd and asked about it. He was told that the Mother of Jesus was buried nearby. The original grave site was knocked down by British soldiers making room for their tents, long ago. Local people gathered up the stones and made a new shrine, which this man on the TV filmed and I saw it. He discovered the legend of Jesus bringing Mary to Pakistan [not called Pakistan way back then] where she died. And then Jesus continued and the TV program then showed where the tomb of Jesus is today located. In Nepal, I think.

I am not saying that the Romans didn't crucify Jesus, I am simply saying that when you bring the phenomenon of bi-location into the equation and what happened to Sister Maria of Agreda and the American Indians and others, it can be just a logical to suggest that the "Jesus" the Romans soldiers had in their grasp was in fact only a "double" of sorts, and that the real Jesus was never harmed. Come to think of it, in the Ramayana, Lord Rama's wife is kidnapped by Ravana and the book speaks about how "the Sita" that he was tormenting was not the real Sita. So there is a tradition of this kind of thing [bi-location] in many cultures. In fact, many cornerstones of the Christian faith give testament to bi-location. So to say it doesn't exist is to slam many of the founders of Christianity. At least that is how I look at it.

 

[Sophia]

Jeez! You don't seem like a very nice Christian. You can tell somebody that you don't believe a story without criticizing them extensively and berating their attempt at polite discussion. You don't have a reason to be so sarcastic like that! :no: It makes coming to a religious forum like this seem very intimidating and unpleasant to people. Just try to tone down the sarcasm, please. I may be 16, but I'll play your mother if I need to.

As far I happen to believe that some kind of Jesus character was indeed crucified by Roman soldiers at some point in time. Based on records left by Josephus and other historians around that time period, I would say that I think this is fairly probable.
A question I find far more interesting is debating whether or not this Christ character was indeed resurrected.

We do find that crucifixion was common in that era, so it is very feasible that Jesus of Nazareth - a rebel, and threat to both the Jewish priesthood's comfy situation in Jerusalem and Roman authorities, was crucified.

The four gospels are fairly similar about events up to the last supper. From that point they do diverge. (Including stories about Judas and his purchase -- or did the priests purchase the Field of blood?-- and the manner of Judas's death.) Only two of the gospel writers were present at the last supper, and specific details aren't even given by John as they are by Mark and Luke - who were not even present - thus, they report hearsay.

We are told that Jesus was placed in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. Witnesses? He was accompanied by Nicodemus, if I remember correctly. Events of sightings, etc. vary after the purported resurrection.

The followers NEEDED for him not to die, or his message would also likely die.

I realize that the resurrection is the foundation of Christianity ahead of the message he came to bring. But, there are some who adhere to the Christ message and do not require the miracles to make his WORDS relevant - nor is resurrection essential to living with the love which was said to be the most important commandment.

I'm afraid that there are some who've lost sight of the practice of his WORDS, becoming lost in the doctrines, and dogma of men. These are many, and these are the ones who forget that the way they treat others is the way they are treating God. (Matthew 25). I ask if they would speak to Jesus with the scorn, derision and sarcasm with which they address their neighbor.

So, "Wayward Teen" if you seek a religion that will give you hope, and provide you with principles for living each day to its fullest with positivity and compassion - to follow the words of the Master Jesus would be ideal (as given in the gospels). However, keep in mind that not all who proclaim "Christianity" are examples - their demonstration of their religion is poor, indeed. (IMO).

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Mahatma Gandhi quote

 

[Mohamed]

My beliefs are based on facts and research. That's why I feel secure in them. The one belief I have that is not based on evidence is my belief in God. And I accept that it is not a rational belief or one that I can support and thus don't argue about it. In fact, I recognize the possibility that I could be wrong and that a god may not exist. I have no problem with that.
.

could you please tell me the kind of evidence
i mean you accept logic or you must see something to believe in it
forexample,it's impossible that all that history and around 4 billion people talks about Jesus while he didn't exist at all,we may have many views about him but surely he existed,we can believe that just logically,so do you believe in such kind of deduction or not?,and another question please,if you find appearant scientific miracles in holybooks,what would your openion?

 

[Muffled]

Actually I was addressing another memeber of this forum. Worthless gruel? Sorry. I'm not putting my thoughts down very well.

Anyhow, after the 50 indians had settled down, the chiefs were invited into the convent so that the priests could make sense out of the odd circumstances surrounding the arrival of the indians - that they had crosses, rosaries, and knew about baptism by water and other knowledge of Christian doctrine.

Upon entering the convent, the indians became very excited and began pointing at an oil painting that was hanging on the wall. It was a picture of a famous Spainish nun, Mother Luisa de Carrion. You see, the priest wanted to know where they got their rosaries from and where they got all their crosses. When the Indians saw the painting, all at once they started pointing at it and said, "a woman - like her - but young, not old." The indians told the priest that a young woman who was dressed exactly like her had given them the rosary beads and had taught them how to make their crosses. That just didn't add up. That would be impossible. But the indians insisted. Looking at the picture of Mother Lusia, Father Benevides found a clue in the way she was dressed.

Sounds like a peyote experience. Is that what you are intimating?