Unconventional Positions in Judaism

[thebigpicture]

Anal sex is deplorable if one does not like anal sex.

Anal sex is deplorable, period. The anus was specifically designed to allow waste to come out of your body. That’s why it’s there. The thing that gets me is the fact that you actually wrote that as long as someone was clean, anal and oral sex is perfectly fine. Are you kidding me? That’s like an oxymoron. How on earth is it hygienically correct to ingest someone’s secretions? Hell, spit by itself carries so many germs, let alone other bodily secretions. How on earth is it clean to have feces end up on you during sex because you’re engaging in anal sex? How on earth can that be considered clean? I'm sorry, but, I just don’t understand how Judaic leaders can be so adamant about being particular about what you eat, food-wise, but some have no problems with something as sodomitic as anal sex? It's just really hard for me to wrap my mind around that one.

But many do, and many have done throughout history. It is known in every culture, in every part of the world.

That doesn't matter. There are a lot of things that was/is done all over the world throughout history and now; it doesn't make those things right.

Properly and consensually done, it is not any more deplorable than any other consensual sex act.

There is no such thing as doing it “properly” because it was not meant to be done at all. You can’t even “be fruitful and multiply” by having anal sex. And there are some people that enjoy anal sex so much that they completely abandon natural sex altogether.

If you don't approve of anal sex, don't have it. But if a married couple wishes to occasionally enjoy it as part of their marital relations, there is no halachic (Jewish legal) reason they should not be able to do so.

Why occasionally? If you truly feel there’s nothing wrong with it, why not say they should have anal sex just as much as they have natural sex?

There are clear grounds and precedent in Jewish Law for permitting it, and very few solid grounds or precedent for prohibiting it altogether.

Isn't this the same as picking and choosing what you will and will not follow? You're saying there are indeed solid grounds (albeit it "few) for prohibiting it, and there are grounds to permit it. So you choose to go with permitting it even though there are grounds to go against it.

There are already plenty of restrictions on what Jews may or may not do sexually. We don't need more, especially restrictions without particular foundation save for someone's compromised aesthetic sense.

Do you see how this can come off as someone saying, "Enough is enough! I'm going to just do what I see fit!"? Do you see how this comes off as a human, not god, deciding what should and should not be required or kept as law?

Every legal system has idiosyncracies, and every society has laws, customs, and mores which are their own, and make sense to them, but may not make sense to outsiders. Judaism is, in this way as in so many other ways, no different from any other society.

The thing is that it's not just non-Jews that have a problem with some of the logic of Judaism. I've heard Jews make the same type of statements I do about things "not adding up" or making sense. You know what some of them ended up saying out of complete frustration -- ? "I guess it's just not supposed to make sense." So it's not just about non-Jews feeling it doesn't make sense.

Clearly, you dislike Jewish Law, Jewish customs, and Jewish thought. That's fine. You are under no obligation to like them, as you are not a Jew.

Wrong. You are way off base. You are clearly trying to make it seem as if I have a personal vendetta against Judaism when that's not true. I am simply conveying my views based on my personal experiences regarding Judaism and Judaic leaders. For me to say what I have personally experienced and for me to convey my views is not an attack and should not be made to seem like it is. I have not personally attacked you or any other follower of Judaism. The things I say when I’m conversing with you and other followers of Judaism is not meant as a personal attack against you or your religion. As I've already stated, some of the very things I say, I’ve heard Jews themselves say the same (Guns and Moses being only one of them). I realize that like many other religions, there are different sects within Judaism that believe and behave differently from other sects within the religion. I’m just conversing with you based on what I and others have personally experienced with regards to Judaic leaders. A lot of what I say is based purely on what I've personally been told by Rabbis themselves. With that stated...

The fact of the matter is that I don’t see Judaism any differently than I see any other man-made religion. You all do the same thing. There are leaders in each group who they, themselves, decide what they feel is a sin or not. They have a basic foundation of truth and they build upon it with their own rules and then alter the rules however and whenever they see fit all while declaring that all of it is still the divine word of god. They change the rules and then make a statement like, “Well, this part is open to interpretation,” to justify changing the rules. With regards to the customs of Judaism -- just like Christianity and whatnot -- I have a problem with them because they are self-imposed, but taught to the followers that they are direct laws of god. That’s why I have a problem with it. It’s not the customs, it’s the fact that these customs are taught as if it came directly from god himself. I’ve seen Jews completely freak out over a mistake they made with regard to Judaic “customs” as if they felt they were going to be struck down where they stood. That’s the problem I have with it.

I have a general problem with the leaders of religions such as Judaism and Christianity because they preach one thing and then act as if it’s no biggie when their own teachings aren’t followed, so long as they say it’s okay not to follow them. Many don’t even follow their own rules. When it comes to Judaic leaders, in particular, I’ve encountered plenty. One even said right out, “Look, we just go with the flow.” I have a problem with some Judaic leaders because, based on my experiences, like so many other religious leaders, they are hypocritical. They basically put themselves on a throne and decide who’s a sinner and who’s not based, not on what god says, but based on what they say. You, yourself, told me that the concept of Judaism is that god said to do “X” and then said “take it from there.” I told you that that statement confirmed exactly what I felt about Judaic leaders. I gave an example by saying that it’s like god told you to remember him daily and then the leaders decided themselves to turn it into a whole other thing and call it what is known as the “Sabbath” and then declared it is the law of god himself when he himself never asked for it (a Sabbath). That’s what I have a problem with. Not to mention the fact that the concept of god saying “take it from there” doesn’t even make sense because the being described as “god” in the bible is not a god of leniency. He’s extraordinarily specific about every single thing, especially when concerning laws. It’s very difficult to believe that a god that is that specific would say, “take it from there.”

You’ve mentioned before that you don’t judge other religions. That what works for the Jews works for the Jews. That each group has their own special way to serve god as directed by him and should be respected as such. And I've known some Jews that were really open-hearted that way. Even inviting people of other religions to partake in some of their "holy" days. The problem is that that’s not how it is with some Rabbis. I’ve seen Rabbis cringe when being compared to Christianity. Even making the statement, “Don’t compare us to Christianity,” as if they find Christianity to be completely without merit and beneath them whereas Judaism contains only the “divine law”. The bottom line is that Judaism for the most part contradicts Christianity. Each group says that what they believe is true. But, the real truth of the matter is that neither of them were there at the beginning to know the exact truth, other than what is obvious. Therefore, neither are truly in a position to feel like they are above the other. Therefore it's a bit irritating when I see either side behave in a way that is demeaning towards the other.

So to be clear, it’s not that I have a particular problem with Judaic laws, customs, etc., separate from other religions. I feel the same way about Judaism as I feel about any other religion. I have a problem with the leaders of Judaism (as well as Christian leaders) in general because of my and some others’ personal experiences with them. Based on the experiences I've had with Rabbis, in particular, some of them seem to put themselves on a pedestal above all other religious leaders when in fact Rabbis are to Judaism what priests, bishops and the Pope are to Christianity. They all say that what they preach is from the mouth of god himself when in fact the vast majority of rules they teach are rules that was initiated by their respective leaders of the biblical days; not by god.

 

[Zardoz]

...So to be clear, it’s not that I have a particular problem with Judaic laws, customs, etc...

If so then quit presenting his theoretical position, which he himself declares is not actually accepted by any branch, as representative of 'Judaism'.

 

[thebigpicture]

If so then quit presenting his theoretical position, which he himself declares is not actually accepted by any branch, as representative of 'Judaism'.

What are you referring to exactly? If you are referring to threesomes, then go back and re-read his post. He said that in private there have been Rabbis that have openly said that "technically" threesomes are permissible so long as it's MFF and not MMF. He said that none of those Rabbis have said it publicly. But they have said it all the same.

As for anal/oral sex...He is a Rabbi, therefore, he is a representative of Judaism just as the Pope is a representative of Christianity. And he, himself, clearly stated that Judaism allows anal/oral sex. I commented on what he, himself stated. As a matter of fact, I was the one that stated what he was saying seemed to go against what has long been seen as the Judaic moral sense. I said in my last post how I couldn't wrap my mind around it. So what I can't understand is why are you so offended by what I say, and not what he says. He makes statements encouraging anal/oral sex and you have no problem with it. Yet when I comment on what he's already stated, you have a problem. Seems very biased to me.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Considering thebigpicture's inability to handle the concept that Jewish law is up for debate and that rabbis will occasionally disagree with each other, can we move this to a private area, outside public view? This is starting to get ridiculous.

 

[Flankerl]

when in fact Rabbis are to Judaism what priests, bishops and the Pope are to Christianity.

Nope thats wrong.

 

[Rakhel]

I completely understand that. But, that's part of the problem I have with it. You have situations in which one Rabbi completely contradicts what another Rabbi says, but both Rabbis say that what they teach is right and that the followers should follow. This doesn't make sense.

It actually makes perfect sense. Yeah. Sometimes it can be frustrating, but it's right.
Since Talmud, rabbis have been disagreeing on what Torah says. Jews have been doing it for years. Even within the Shulcan Aruch, there are two different interpretations of Talmud. What Caro said the Jewish Code should be and the Rema pointing out how the SEphardic code differs from the Ashkenazi code.

why do you think there are so many different movements within Judiasm? No one could agree. why should this subject be any different?

 

[Rakhel]

Considering thebigpicture's inability to handle the concept that Jewish law is up for debate and that rabbis will occasionally disagree with each other, can we move this to a private area, outside public view? This is starting to get ridiculous.

Or at least the DIR

 

[Levite]

Anal sex is deplorable, period. The anus was specifically designed to allow waste to come out of your body. That’s why it’s there. The thing that gets me is the fact that you actually wrote that as long as someone was clean, anal and oral sex is perfectly fine. Are you kidding me? That’s like an oxymoron. How on earth is it hygienically correct to ingest someone’s secretions? Hell, spit by itself carries so many germs, let alone other bodily secretions.

The AMA and other physicians' groups seem to think that if good hygiene is kept, and proper lubrication is used, and both partners are free of communicable diseases, anal and oral sex pose no significant health risks. Health risks are simply a non-issue unless (God forbid) a disease like HIV is involved.

some have no problems with something as sodomitic as anal sex? It's just really hard for me to wrap my mind around that one.

Actually, we don't generally teach that the sin of Sodom was anal sex. Overwhelmingly, we teach that it was lack of compassion and basic social morals. Occasionally, we have taught that it was their willingness to be party to rape. But very few Jewish authorities have simply labeled the sin of Sodom as anal sex.

There is no such thing as doing it “properly” because it was not meant to be done at all.

Proper hygiene, plentiful water-based lubrication, gentle insertion, some stretching of the anal muscle if necessary, condoms if necessary. These things followed, there appear to be no significant health hazards.

You can’t even “be fruitful and multiply” by having anal sex. And there are some people that enjoy anal sex so much that they completely abandon natural sex altogether. Why occasionally? If you truly feel there’s nothing wrong with it, why not say they should have anal sex just as much as they have natural sex?

Yes, it's true that one cannot reproduce by anal sex. But, first of all, we are not obligated to turn each and every marital encounter into an attempt at reproduction. So long as a couple reproduces at least once (some say twice), they have fulfilled the commandment to reproduce. And second of all, if a couple proves to be infertile for whatever reason, we do not tell them to cease having sex. Jewish authorities have always understood that while reproduction is of paramount importance, it is not the only reason to have sex.

So while it would, in theory, be unacceptable for an otherwise fertile heterosexual couple to only have oral and anal sex, and never, ever have vaginal sex for potential reproduction, that is simply a case that does not appear to occur. I wrote a paper on the subject of bi'ah she'lo k'darkah (non-vaginal sex) in rabbinical school, and in my research for it, I never encountered a case in the responsa literature of a couple who had abandoned vaginal intercourse altogether for other forms of sex.

Isn't this the same as picking and choosing what you will and will not follow? You're saying there are indeed solid grounds (albeit it "few) for prohibiting it, and there are grounds to permit it. So you choose to go with permitting it even though there are grounds to go against it.

That is the way the laws are made and judged. There are actually very seldom situations when there are only arguments to be made for one side of an issue. So rabbis, as halachic arbiters, have to research the matter and decide how they will interpret the law. Just as any kind of jurist in any kind of legal system must do.

Do you see how this comes off as a human, not god, deciding what should and should not be required or kept as law?

Except that God gave us the authority to interpret Torah. God gave us Oral Torah as well as Written Torah, and the right and duty to interpret, expand, and illuminate the commandments of the covenant, both by adding strictures as a fence around the Torah, and by sometimes moderating the strictness of the commandments by amelioration. Torah is not purely human invention, nor is it purely divine utterance. It is a cooperative venture between God and humans, and that is how it was intended to be from the start.

The thing is that it's not just non-Jews that have a problem with some of the logic of Judaism. I've heard Jews make the same type of statements I do about things "not adding up" or making sense.

Yes. I know. I am a teacher by profession, and I teach such individuals frequently. Confusion mostly arises from lack of education and training. Just as it does with other subjects, in other cultures and systems.

I have a general problem with the leaders of religions such as Judaism and Christianity because they preach one thing and then act as if it’s no biggie when their own teachings aren’t followed, so long as they say it’s okay not to follow them. Many don’t even follow their own rules. When it comes to Judaic leaders, in particular, I’ve encountered plenty. One even said right out, “Look, we just go with the flow.” I have a problem with some Judaic leaders because, based on my experiences, like so many other religious leaders, they are hypocritical.

Sometimes it's not okay when our teachings aren't followed. Sometimes it's okay, so long as people are following something, with good judgment and reason and education. But in any case, we understand that the law is an expectation; and people, being human, sometimes fail in those expectations. We must do the best we can, and hope to improve ourselves, and relying on the knowledge that God forgives. But it is useless to expect perfection from human beings, because they are incapable of it.

I gave an example by saying that it’s like god told you to remember him daily and then the leaders decided themselves to turn it into a whole other thing and call it what is known as the “Sabbath” and then declared it is the law of god himself when he himself never asked for it (a Sabbath).

Actually, if you will take a look at the Ten Commandments (either the version in Exodus 20 or the version in Deuteronomy 5) you will see that the fourth commandment down on the list concerns keeping the Sabbath.

Not to mention the fact that the concept of god saying “take it from there” doesn’t even make sense because the being described as “god” in the bible is not a god of leniency. He’s extraordinarily specific about every single thing, especially when concerning laws. It’s very difficult to believe that a god that is that specific would say, “take it from there.”

That is your interpretation. Our tradition reads the text differently.

The problem is that that’s not how it is with some Rabbis. I’ve seen Rabbis cringe when being compared to Christianity. Even making the statement, “Don’t compare us to Christianity,” as if they find Christianity to be completely without merit and beneath them whereas Judaism contains only the “divine law”.

No people are all of a piece. The Jewish People is a nation of individuals, with different interpretations and perceptions. It is unfortunate, but some people are uncomfortable with other religions. And perhaps understandable, in that Christianity has a long history of being extremely unkind to Jews. But whatever the case, feelings can sometimes color people's beliefs, right or wrong. It happens. But that doesn't mean it is a universal undertone for all Jewish belief, and it doesn't mean that Judaism has no place for tolerance and pluralism.

Based on the experiences I've had with Rabbis, in particular, some of them seem to put themselves on a pedestal above all other religious leaders when in fact Rabbis are to Judaism what priests, bishops and the Pope are to Christianity.

While it is unfortunate, but true, that some rabbis have ego problems (much like many others in positions of communal authority), Rabbis are not to Judaism what priests, bishops, and the Pope are to Christianity. Judaism does not have a fixed and centralized hierarchy like that. All that one needs to be a rabbi is sufficient education (in fact, in many cases, any person of sufficient education can be an acceptable halachic judge and arbiter, even if they lack ordination). And rabbis can and do disagree with one another, and they are not answerable to any single leader. If you are determined to make an analogy with Judaism and Christianity, you might fare better with one of the Protestant sects, whose ministers have considerable jurisdiction and leeway to interpret and teach, except Judaism has no synod with ultimate powers of decision.

They all say that what they preach is from the mouth of god himself when in fact the vast majority of rules they teach are rules that was initiated by their respective leaders of the biblical days; not by god.

I highly doubt that any rabbi will tell you that his teachings are all from the mouth of God Himself. I could imagine that many Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) rabbis might give you certain interpretations that they claim God gave to Moses on Sinai; but the vast majority of Jews are not Haredim, and even Modern Orthodox Jews are a little more careful with their language than that.

But in any case, this probably in part goes back to what I said above about Oral Torah, and the right and responsibility that God gave to the Jewish People to interpret Torah and make halachah, and how Torah is supposed to be a cooperative venture.

 

[Zardoz]

What are you referring to exactly? If you are referring to threesomes, then go back and re-read his post. He said that in private there have been Rabbis that have openly said that "technically" threesomes are permissible so long as it's MFF and not MMF. He said that none of those Rabbis have said it publicly. But they have said it all the same.

As for anal/oral sex...He is a Rabbi, therefore, he is a representative of Judaism just as the Pope is a representative of Christianity...

A Rabbi is not like the Pope, but he can make a decision of Halacha. He can also have a personal opinion. Levite stated quite clearly that no branch of Judaism officially sanctions threesomes...

all movements currently prohibit anything which might be called "adulterous."

...and yet you continue to present this opinion as the position of 'Judaism'.

You are free to disagree all you want with Levite's opinion, or the opionions of the Rabbis he mentions, but you are not free to make false statements on the entire faith based on misrepresention.

 

[Yerda]

Your Rabbi should stop waisting his/her time ... and you should stop wasting ours.

This is the most interesting thread I've read in ages.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I thought Anal and Oral sex was okay in Judaism?

 

[JacobEzra.]

He is a Rabbi, therefore, he is a representative of Judaism just as the Pope is a representative of Christianity.

No where even close.

A Rabbi is not infallible in anything, nor a vicar of HaShem.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is starting to get ridiculous.

Predictably ...

 

[Levite]

I thought Anal and Oral sex was okay in Judaism?

They are.

 

[thebigpicture]

Nope thats wrong.

A Rabbi is not like the Pope, but he can make a decision of Halacha. He can also have a personal opinion.

When people see, think, or hear of the Pope they immediately think of Christianity. When people see, think, or hear of a Rabbi, they immediately think of Judaism. The Pope is associated with Christianity. Rabbis are associated with Judaism. And both are considered leaders in their respective religions. No matter the position in hierarchy.

Maybe it's more clear now what I was saying.

Levite stated quite clearly that no branch of Judaism officially sanctions threesomes...

...and yet you continue to present this opinion as the position of 'Judaism'.

You are really hung up on this threesome thing. Clearly you want to continue to ignore the fact that Levite did say that Rabbis said in private that "technically" it was permissible in Judaism. I'm quite aware that it was not said publicly and quite aware that he said that "all movements currently prohibit" it. I've never disputed that. I don't know why you keep acting as if I did. I never said that those Rabbis saying that meant that it was an official law of Judaism for threesomes to be allowed. Yet you keep trying to make it seem as if I did. What I did, say is that it was still said by Rabbis in private it could "technically" be permissible. And that's what I've been referring to. The fact that these Rabbis, leaders in Judaism, even remotely think it's okay, is mind-boggling to me.

You are free to disagree all you want with Levite's opinion, or the opionions of the Rabbis he mentions, but you are not free to make false statements on the entire faith based on misrepresention.

Zardoz, I am perfectly aware of my right to and do highly disagree with the views of Levite and the Rabbis he mentioned. And you definitely have the right to say I'm not free to make false statements if I were actually making them. What you don't have the right to do is make it seem like I'm lying when what I said and commented on is clearly written in Levite's post. If I were making false statements, I would be out of line. And I, myself, would say I was out of line. But, I'm not making false statements. Levite is the one who even brought threesomes up. The OP was not even about threesomes; it was about anal sex. It was Levite that took it upon himself to throw threesomes into the mix. He was also the one who brought up porn, mutual masturbation, sex toys, anal and oral sex and fetishes. Him, not me. He made it quite clear that Judaism allows a lot of wiggle room in terms of sex between a married couple. Even going as far as to say that there is enough sexual restriction as it is; that there doesn't need to be even more. That is not a misrepresentation. That's what he said. So, if you have a problem with my commenting on what Levite wrote about, then you need to take it up with him, not me. And for some reason you have yet to do that.

 

[thebigpicture]

It actually makes perfect sense. Yeah. Sometimes it can be frustrating, but it's right.
Since Talmud, rabbis have been disagreeing on what Torah says. Jews have been doing it for years. Even within the Shulcan Aruch, there are two different interpretations of Talmud. What Caro said the Jewish Code should be and the Rema pointing out how the SEphardic code differs from the Ashkenazi code.

why do you think there are so many different movements within Judiasm? No one could agree. why should this subject be any different?

I understand what you are saying, rakhel. I've said it more than once myself that there are different sects within Judaism and that they behave, think, and teach differently. That's not a hard concept to understand. That's how it is in most religions, which is why I've stated on more than one occasion that Judaism is no different from any other religion with respect to that. I just feel it makes absolutely no sense at all for there to be such disagreements within one religion -- no matter what the religion is.

 

[JacobEzra.]

When people see, think, or hear of the Pope they immediately think of Christianity. When people see, think, or hear of a Rabbi, they immediately think of Judaism. The Pope is associated with Christianity. Rabbis are associated with Judaism. And both are considered leaders in their respective religions. No matter the position in hierarchy.

Maybe it's more clear now what I was saying.

Your still wrong.............. Rabbis would be more related to Pastors then to the Pope

 

[JacobEzra.]

I just feel it makes absolutely no sense at all for there to be such disagreements within one religion -- no matter what the religion is.

Christianity is worse.

 

[JacobEzra.]

What I did, say is that it was still said by Rabbis in private it could "technically" be permissible. And that's what I've been referring to. The fact that these Rabbis, leaders in Judaism, even remotely think it's okay, is mind-boggling to me.

mind-boggling like Christianity? Where not all sects can agree on what is a sin?

 

[thebigpicture]

The AMA and other physicians' groups seem to think that if good hygiene is kept, and proper lubrication is used, and both partners are free of communicable diseases, anal and oral sex pose no significant health risks. Health risks are simply a non-issue unless (God forbid) a disease like HIV is involved.

Actually, we don't generally teach that the sin of Sodom was anal sex. Overwhelmingly, we teach that it was lack of compassion and basic social morals. Occasionally, we have taught that it was their willingness to be party to rape. But very few Jewish authorities have simply labeled the sin of Sodom as anal sex.

Proper hygiene, plentiful water-based lubrication, gentle insertion, some stretching of the anal muscle if necessary, condoms if necessary. These things followed, there appear to be no significant health hazards.

Yes, it's true that one cannot reproduce by anal sex. But, first of all, we are not obligated to turn each and every marital encounter into an attempt at reproduction. So long as a couple reproduces at least once (some say twice), they have fulfilled the commandment to reproduce. And second of all, if a couple proves to be infertile for whatever reason, we do not tell them to cease having sex. Jewish authorities have always understood that while reproduction is of paramount importance, it is not the only reason to have sex.

Except that God gave us the authority to interpret Torah. God gave us Oral Torah as well as Written Torah, and the right and duty to interpret, expand, and illuminate the commandments of the covenant, both by adding strictures as a fence around the Torah, and by sometimes moderating the strictness of the commandments by amelioration. Torah is not purely human invention, nor is it purely divine utterance. It is a cooperative venture between God and humans, and that is how it was intended to be from the start.

Actually, if you will take a look at the Ten Commandments (either the version in Exodus 20 or the version in Deuteronomy 5) you will see that the fourth commandment down on the list concerns keeping the Sabbath.

That is your interpretation. Our tradition reads the text differently.

No people are all of a piece. The Jewish People is a nation of individuals, with different interpretations and perceptions. It is unfortunate, but some people are uncomfortable with other religions. And perhaps understandable, in that Christianity has a long history of being extremely unkind to Jews. But whatever the case, feelings can sometimes color people's beliefs, right or wrong. It happens. But that doesn't mean it is a universal undertone for all Jewish belief, and it doesn't mean that Judaism has no place for tolerance and pluralism.

I highly doubt that any rabbi will tell you that his teachings are all from the mouth of God Himself. I could imagine that many Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) rabbis might give you certain interpretations that they claim God gave to Moses on Sinai; but the vast majority of Jews are not Haredim, and even Modern Orthodox Jews are a little more careful with their language than that.

But in any case, this probably in part goes back to what I said above about Oral Torah, and the right and responsibility that God gave to the Jewish People to interpret Torah and make halachah, and how Torah is supposed to be a cooperative venture.

Wooooow. I mean...whew! Boy, boy, boy. I don't know about you all but I feel that surely this world is coming to an end. Anyway, I digress...

I tell you what...it’s okay. You have a right to keep believing in fishes swallowing people, spitting them out three days later and them living to tell about it; to believe in thousands upon thousands of animals all fitting on one giant boat until a worldly flood dissipates with rainbows being put in the sky as a symbol to god to never do it again; to believe in human beings turning serpents into sticks, etc. ... hey, it’s your right. No one can take that from you. You are after all a Rabbi. And all that stuff makes perfect sense to you because by golly only Jews (at least some of them) can understand all the complexities that is Judaism. Me -- I’m not a Jew. No, no, no, I am not a Jew. Nor am I a Christian. Because if you are a Christian I think one would have to believe that a woman who’s never had sex in her entire life just one day becomes impregnated by “god”, has a “son of god” who dies on a cross, is resurrected from the dead in order to become “lord of us all.” So, nope. Most certainly not a Christian. But, that’s okay, because we are all different. Very, very, very different. And I don’t dislike someone simply because they have different beliefs. That’s just not me. Just because people believe in these types of things doesn’t make them unintelligent or bad people. Everybody has a right to believe what they want to believe. Sometimes what they believe is right and sometimes it’s wrong. Only the Creator Himself can really say who’s right and who’s wrong, seeing as to how none of us existed in the biblical days. So, everyone has a right to believe what they want whether it makes sense or not. Me, personally -- I tend to believe more in realism. May seem like an odd notion to someone like you, but things actually have to make sense to me in order for me to actually believe in it. I, personally, find it -- let’s see um, what’s the word -- disorganized to have one person saying this and this one saying that and they’re all saying, “It’s the truth! It’s the truth!” “Interpretation! Interpretation!”... Just, not my thing. I actually feel that truth should be organized and consistent. Tch, tch, tch. The audacity of me. I can’t help it. If it doesn’t makes sense, I don’t accept it. I don’t know...maybe you have to be non-Jewish to understand, but that’s how I feel. I mean to me having the Sabbath appear as -- now what was it you said -- ? Oh, yeah the fourth one down on the commandments list (thank you, so helpful; I mean you have to be a genius to remember these ten rules) -- doesn’t explain why the Passover and the Atonement and Feast of Tabernacles, etc., isn’t listed but kept. Yeah, I’m sorry, I just don’t get why those days aren’t mentioned but kept anyway. Just one of those “interpretation” and “Oral Torah” type of things, I guess though. I get it. I also get that some may find what is considered sodomitic (even by the definition itself) things like anal and oral sex appealing and that some people even find threesomes appealing in the bedroom. I understand that. I mean to me, just the fact that the anus isn’t capable of self-lubrication like the vagina is is a preeeetty big clue that maybe it just wasn’t meant for anything to go inside. I know, I know...there are women who have a problem with the vagina self-lubricating. But, we have to keep in mind that that’s a medical problem. The vagina is, indeed, capable of self-lubrication. The fact that feces just sits there in the anus and lingers inside with all that bacteria just building and building and waiting and for someone to say, “I’m going in!” just doesn’t seem kosher (no pun intended) to me. To me no amount of lubrication, gentleness, condoms, yada, yada, yada, makes it clean and/or right in any way, shape, form or fashion. But, let’s just face it -- what’s so obviously unnatural and wrong to some, just isn’t to others. And that’s just how it is. I guess everyone just sees things differently. I guess if someone wants to do something bad enough, they’ll just make a way and say that it’s perfectly fine. I mean I’ve even heard doctors say that anal sex is the riskiest form of sex. I guess those doctors don’t matter though. Who knows, maybe I was just imagining things. Or maybe it’s one of those situations in which there is a select group that is warning everybody about the dangers of something whereas the majority says there is no danger at all. Then one day, everybody realizes that the select group was right about the dangers. I guess that’s why it's wise to use your common sense about certain things. Because there are so many different opinions. But, hey, I get it. I get that if that’s what makes a married couple happy, that some people feel like why shouldn’t they just do it? I mean even though there are so many clean options to spice up the bedroom, if that couple just needs that anal sex to do it for them then some people feel why shouldn’t they just go for it. I understand that's how they feel. I don't agree. But I understand that's how they feel. I guess what it is is that some of us have, let's just say...different standards in life.

In any case, you keep believing in what you believe. It’s your prerogative. Your personal right. No one should try to force you to believe differently. I most certainly am not trying to. So, have at it. And I’ll keep knowing what I know and I have to say that my views are confirmed more and more every day on this forum, thanks to the ever-so-enlightening conversational contributions from people like you. In the meantime, I have to say...I’ll believe that “god” spoke to any one group of people giving them “laws and commandments” and had a son who he let die so that that son could become the “savior of us all” just about the time pigs sprout wings and fly through a hell that has frozen over...so to speak. And I have to say that the last time I looked up at the sky -- it was just birds and airplanes flying around. And the earth beneath? Still was hot as ever.


Oh! By the way, you didn’t have to go to all that trouble to explain that sex was for more than making babies to little ‘ol me. I already know that it’s for pleasure as well. Thank you for that though. It’s just too bad you can’t speak to the Rabbi I spoke to that implied that sex for pleasure could corrupt the mind. Your whole “sex is for pleasure too” explanation might be helpful to him.