Was Jesus killed on the cross?

[fallingblood]

Here, brother...let's try this again...and expose your utter ignorance of Arabic...

This excerpt is directly from your slavishly googled website.

What word does Mirza Ahmed base his idea upon that Jesus dies a natural death...?

إذ قال الله يعيسى إني متوفيك ورافعك إلي ومطهرك من الذين كفروا وجاعل الذين اتبعوك فوق الذين كفروا إلى يوم القيمة ثم إلي مرجعكم فأحكم بينكم فيما كنتم فيه تختلفون​

You do have a hard time understanding what I said don't you? Maybe you want to go back and reread what I previously said about my Arabic. And then, maybe you want to go ahead and actually debate instead of just dodging everything like you've been doing for the last handful of pages.

It seems to me that you are realizing that your whole argument is based on quicksand, and you are quickly loosing your footing.

 

[Bowman]

You do have a hard time understanding what I said don't you? Maybe you want to go back and reread what I previously said about my Arabic. And then, maybe you want to go ahead and actually debate instead of just dodging everything like you've been doing for the last handful of pages.

It seems to me that you are realizing that your whole argument is based on quicksand, and you are quickly loosing your footing.

You just busted yourself.

Had you actually read the link that you googled, then you would already know the word in question is given to the reader!

Thus...your worn-out excuse of not knowing any Arabic whatsoever does not fly - as you are only required to simply read the link in English - of which, you could not even do!

 

[fallingblood]

You just busted yourself.

Had you actually read the link that you googled, then you would already know the word in question is given to the reader!

Thus...your worn-out excuse of not knowing any Arabic whatsoever does not fly - as you are only required to simply read the link in English - of which, you could not even do!

So you admit that you can't debate me huh? You're dodging of the many questions that I've posted, and the evidence that I've posted, is getting very tired. I've even gone as far as posting the part of the link that proves that you have no ground to stand on.

Your childish attempt to try to out me is getting ridiculous. Maybe you actually want to start actually debating.

 

[Bowman]

So you admit that you can't debate me huh? You're dodging of the many questions that I've posted, and the evidence that I've posted, is getting very tired. I've even gone as far as posting the part of the link that proves that you have no ground to stand on.

Your childish attempt to try to out me is getting ridiculous. Maybe you actually want to start actually debating.

Your idea of a 'debate' consists of slavishly googling a link (that you have not even read yourself) as a reply and stating...'here, you have just been refuted'.

You can do better...

 

[fallingblood]

Your idea of a 'debate' consists of slavishly googling a link (that you have not even read yourself) as a reply and stating...'here, you have just been refuted'.

You can do better...

And again, you refuse to debate. What about all of the examples that I've provided multiple times about certain Christian beliefs resting only one one verse? You've never refuted those. And the quote I gave from that site (which shows that I've read it if I can give you quotes from it) that shows there are more than one verse dealing with the death of Jesus? You've never refuted that either. Or the importance of hadiths, another point you've failed to refute. Actually, you've refuted nothing. Instead you just dodge everything. Your last post simply another example of that. Do you get tired of it?

I'm just taking this as I've won the debate since you haven't added anything.

 

[Bowman]

What about all of the examples that I've provided multiple times about certain Christian beliefs resting only one one verse? You've never refuted those.

You have yet to provide a single solitary example, brother...

Do you want third chance to defend your Lazarus example?

And the quote I gave from that site (which shows that I've read it if I can give you quotes from it) that shows there are more than one verse dealing with the death of Jesus?

Show me all the ayat in the Koran that deal with Jesus' crucifixion.

Or the importance of hadiths, another point you've failed to refute. Actually, you've refuted nothing.

Ahadith were never part of the discussion to begin with...this is about the Koran...

You have nothing...

 

[fallingblood]

Okay, since you don't want to debate, since you dodge everything (the evidence and questions that I raise), and you simply ignore and dismiss the majority of what I say by using childish tactics, I will simply say that I win, and get going on a different topic. But to give you one last chance, I will post, for the final time, the evidence that I've provided that you can not refute.

What about the idea that Jesus raise Lazareth from the dead? Or the idea that God had Noah fill the ark with 2 of each kind of animal (even though another verse shortly later contradicts that idea)? That God created Eve from one of Adams ribs? That Jesus was a carpenter? That Jesus could read or even write? That Jesus fled to Egypt? That Jesus taught in the synagogue when he was only 12? A lot of the ideas of Jesus's birth are simply based on a couple of verses even.

The Bible is wrong in the case of creation. The Bible is wrong about a global flood. The Bible is wrong about the formation of the nation of Israel. I think three examples are good enough. The idea of the trinity is not fully founded in the Bible as you will not find any verses speaking of it. And I've shown the one verse examples.

You may want to check your history again. Yes, the Quran definitely borrowed ideas from the Bible, and it even admits that the Bible has some merit. However, to say that the Bible is the complete source of the Quran can not be proven. Especially since there is such huge discrepancies, as in the Quran contains a lot that is not found in the Bible.

Islamic view of Jesus' death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Death of Jesus in Quran "reasonable and valid", says Saudi scholar
Answering Qadianis: Jesus (PBUH) did not die according to Quran

When Allah said: ‘O Isa , I am to take you in full (mutawaffeeka) and to raise you towards Myself, and to cleanse you of those who disbelieve, and to place those who follow you above those who disbelieve up to the Day of Doom. Then to Me is your return, whereupon I shall judge between you in that over which you have differed.’” (3:55)

The part requiring special consideration is the sentence; “I will take you back (mutawaffeeka) and raise you up to Me.”

And indeed Quran 5:117 also goes on the same lines.

“I have not said to them anything but what You have ordered me to say, that is, ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord‘ and I was a witness over them as long as I was with them. But when You recalled me (tawaffaitani), You were the One watching over them. You are a witness over everything.” (5:117)

A close examination reveals a most important truth: The verb carries a sense that differs from what is normally meant by “to die.” The word translated into English as “to die” comes from the Arabic root waffaa derived from the verb tawaffaa, which does not imply death, but rather taking the soul, or surrender.

This is all information I've posted, refuting what you've stated, and all you've done is dodged it, most likely because you can't debate me. I've shown that there are more than one verse dealing with the death of Jesus, and I've provided evidence that the Quran, and the majority of scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, agree that the Quran states that Jesus did not die on the cross. I've also given many examples of where Christianity is based on just a single verse. You have a lot of work ahead of you. If you refuse though, all you are doing is admitting that you have no argument, and that I'm right.

You can try to dodge the information again, but all that you are doing is admitting defeat on your part. If you want to debate, go ahead and address what I've posted. If you want to play some childish game, then you are alone here.

 

[Bowman]

What about the idea that Jesus raise Lazareth from the dead?

So...again, for the third time...what Christian doctrine revolves around Lazarus?

Which verse do you want to use, as there are many...

 

[Bowman]

The Bible is wrong in the case of creation.

Where?

The Bible is wrong about a global flood.

Where?

Yes, the Quran definitely borrowed ideas from the Bible, and it even admits that the Bible has some merit.

What makes you say this?

However, to say that the Bible is the complete source of the Quran can not be proven.

Sure it can...

Especially since there is such huge discrepancies, as in the Quran contains a lot that is not found in the Bible.

Like what?

 

[fallingblood]

Where?

Evolution is a fact. Adam and Eve were not the first humans, as we know there were humans long before 4,000 B.C.E. (which is close to when the Bible says the earth was created). Humans originated out of Africa, not the middle east. There is no evidence for the Garden of Eden. The Bible even has problems with Adam and Eve being the first humans as it suggests that other humans were around as well. Basically, Genesis has nothing true about the creation story.

Where?

There is no evidence. Actually, a global flood is impossible as there is not enough water on this planet. To get that amount of water needed, it would be certain death for everyone on this planet. More so, we have records of other civilizations during the time that the global flood was suppose to occur, showing that there is no global flood.

What makes you say this?

So you are questioning whether or not the Quran is based off the Bible?

Sure it can...

How if you question whether or not the Quran is based off the Bible in the first place?

Like what?

Have you read the two? I'm guessing not.

 

[fallingblood]

So...again, for the third time...what Christian doctrine revolves around Lazarus?

Which verse do you want to use, as there are many...

What Islamic doctrine revolves around Jesus dying or not dying on the cross?


So you've addressed like an eighth of what I posted, in some way. Maybe you want to start defending your idea. I mean by actually showing why I'm wrong. All you've shown is that you really don't understand the Bible or the Quran.

 

[Bowman]

First...thanks giving up on discussing Jesus' crucifixion, according to the Koran...as you would much rather discuss other things on your mind...

Evolution is a fact.

Micro...or...macro?

Adam and Eve were not the first humans, as we know there were humans long before 4,000 B.C.E. (which is close to when the Bible says the earth was created).

The geneologies were never meant to be sumed-up, brother.

No...there is no issue with an earth that is circa 4.65 Billion years old.

Yes...Adam & Eve were the first homo sapiens sapiens.

Humans originated out of Africa, not the middle east. There is no evidence for the Garden of Eden. The Bible even has problems with Adam and Eve being the first humans as it suggests that other humans were around as well. Basically, Genesis has nothing true about the creation story.

The Holy Bible has always predicted that modern humans came from one male and one female on the order of thousands of years. This is exactly what modern science tells us.

There is no evidence. Actually, a global flood is impossible as there is not enough water on this planet. To get that amount of water needed, it would be certain death for everyone on this planet. More so, we have records of other civilizations during the time that the global flood was suppose to occur, showing that there is no global flood.

The Holy Bible claims a local flood...not global, brother...

So you are questioning whether or not the Quran is based off the Bible?

The Koran claims to have copied the Holy Bible.

Thus...we should expect that it did...

 

[Bowman]

What Islamic doctrine revolves around Jesus dying or not dying on the cross?

They base their entire denial of the event upon one verse.

You already know this to be true.

 

[fallingblood]

First...thanks giving up on discussing Jesus' crucifixion, according to the Koran...as you would much rather discuss other things on your mind...

I never gave it up. You simply have provided no evidence that you are right, and I've provided evidence that you are wrong, on all account. I provided evidence that the Quran does in fact have more than one verse about the death of Jesus, and I've shown that the Quran does in fact teach that Jesus did not die on the cross, and that is what the majority of scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, hold to be true.

Micro...or...macro?

Both. The theory of evolution is fact. As with scientific theories, it has been researched, tested, and shown to be true over and over again.

The geneologies were never meant to be sumed-up, brother.

So they are wrong then? They may not be meant to be summed-up, but that really is besides the point. The fact is, they provide a way to see how long ago the world was created, or at least how long ago Adam and Eve supposedly lived. It is either this, or you have to accept the Bible is wrong.

Yes...Adam & Eve were the first homo sapiens sapiens.

There is no evidence to support that. Especially considering that they are of Middle Eastern origin, ruling them out of being the first homo sapiens sapiens.

The Holy Bible claims a local flood...not global, brother...

The Bible clearly states the entire world was flooded.

The Koran claims to have copied the Holy Bible.

Thus...we should expect that it did...

Where?

 

[fallingblood]

They base their entire denial of the event upon one verse.

You already know this to be true.

So its a belief similar to the idea that Jesus can raise the dead because he did so with Lazarus.

 

[Bowman]

So its a belief similar to the idea that Jesus can raise the dead because he did so with Lazarus.

Nope.

Islam stands or falls on one mis-translated Arabic word, in one verse.

The whole of islam is targeted to the denial that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.

If Muslims can deny the cucifixion event, then they do not have to deal with His self-resurrection and Him being God.

 

[Bowman]

I provided evidence that the Quran does in fact have more than one verse about the death of Jesus, and I've shown that the Quran does in fact teach that Jesus did not die on the cross, and that is what the majority of scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, hold to be true.

Go back and re-read the posts, brother.

How many ayat mention crucifixion?

Both. The theory of evolution is fact. As with scientific theories, it has been researched, tested, and shown to be true over and over again.

Nope.

Show me the direct link for homo sapiens sapiens...and no..talkorigins will not help you brother...

So they are wrong then? They may not be meant to be summed-up, but that really is besides the point.

Then why mention it in the first place?

The fact is, they provide a way to see how long ago the world was created, or at least how long ago Adam and Eve supposedly lived. It is either this, or you have to accept the Bible is wrong.

Show me where the Hoy Bible ever says that they were to be summed?

Especially when there are provable gaps in them.

The Bible clearly states the entire world was flooded.

Nope.

Your assertion.

Your proof.

Where?

Where does it not?

 

[fallingblood]

Nope.

Islam stands or falls on one mis-translated Arabic word, in one verse.

The whole of islam is targeted to the denial that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.

If Muslims can deny the cucifixion event, then they do not have to deal with His self-resurrection and Him being God.

This doesn't even make sense. I believe that Jesus died on the cross; however, I do not believe that he is God or that he was resurrected. The same can go for Muslims.

You clearly do not understand anything about Islam if you think it would fall just because some show that he died on the cross.

 

[fallingblood]

Go back and re-read the posts, brother.

How many ayat mention crucifixion?

You can't ignore the other verses about the death of Jesus.

Nope.

Show me the direct link for homo sapiens sapiens...and no..talkorigins will not help you brother...

Actually, since the general consensus agrees with me, I do not have the burden of proof. It is upon you to show that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens sapiens. Now any evolutionary biology text book will agree with what I said.

Then why mention it in the first place?

Because they prove my point.

Show me where the Hoy Bible ever says that they were to be summed?

Especially when there are provable gaps in them.

Never said they were intended to be summed up. Also, if they have those gaps, then you are admitting the Bible is flawed. However, the Bible is pretty good about giving us a timeline.

Nope.

Your assertion.

Your proof.

Genesis 7:4, clearly states that the flood would wipe the face of the Earth of every living creature.

Geneis 7:19 clearly states that the flood waters covered all of the highest mountains beneath the heavens.

Genesis 7:23, again clearly states that every living creature on the entire earth was killed.

That's not to mention that the rain lasted 40 days and 40 nights, which would be much more than just a local flood, which is proven by the fact that the mountains of Ararat were also supposedly completely covered, which makes it again, more than a local flood.

The Bible is clear evidence that they are talking about a global flood.

Where does it not?

If you can't show where the Quran states that it is copied from the Bible, than you are wrong.

 

[Bowman]

This doesn't even make sense. I believe that Jesus died on the cross; however, I do not believe that he is God or that he was resurrected. The same can go for Muslims.

You clearly do not understand anything about Islam if you think it would fall just because some show that he died on the cross.

As you know, but are ashamed to admit, Muslims are told that they have only one Koranic verse which directly addresses Jesus' crucifixion. Thus...they have no other choice but to derive Jesus' crucifixion theology from this one, single, solitary verse.

If muslims can twist this one verse into a negative, then they do not have to deal with His singular resurrection which follows in the very next verse.