The un-BigBang

[Just_me_Mike]

Reversing backwards to 14 billion or there about years ago using modern science estimates, the initial energy was super hot possibly, and simply abundant with potential energy to say the least. It wasn't a very big beginning, perhaps the size of an atom. Yet within this there was the possibility for:

• Dinosaurs
• The Octave
• Consciousness
• Planets
• Oceans
• Whales
• Mountains
• Jupiter
• Milky Way
• Subway
• McDonald's
• Arlington Cemetery
• My dogs Max and Lady

All that from a single source of energy or matter depending on your choice of views. Yes it took a long time for these to come about, but it appears they did.

In fact, I was doing scales on the guitar the other day, and thought how strange the Big Bang was able to not only deliver the goods for me to be born, but also for the sounds of our world to be so harmonious with my perception and ears.

When I was painting, I was in awe from what the Big Bang could deliver in terms of complimentary colors and how they works so well together for a visual stimulus for my brain.

Going back to the beginning of the big bang, it is short of miraculous what has developed up until today.

All by chance, what a lottery ticket the Universe has turned out to be!

 

[Just_me_Mike]

What I wonder if as easy as it started and all came about, can it just disappear? We know nothing of said question, and probably it is a stupid question, but if nothing makes our initial explosion special, than an implosion is just as possible at any time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

ah, jeez

 

[Eliot Wild]

If there are any astrophysicists passing through, I would appreciate it if they would correct or clarify me where necessary.

At one time there was a theory put forth that eventually our expanding universe would reach a point of maximum expansion. At that point, so the theory stated, all matter in the universe would begin to contract back in on itself due to gravitational forces at the universal interior.

So, according to this theory, the explosion known as the Big Bang which sparked our expanding universe would eventually have an opposite counter force, if you will, some kind of vast cosmic implosion with the entire universe collapsing inward to once again form a pressurized point of intense heat and density that would in theory eventually again explode with a Big Bang.

However, if my understanding is correct, there is now evidence that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating. This acceleration is believed to be the result of "dark energy" and something about the way it displaces "dark matter". And that is about where I get lost. Actually, the whole subject is far over my head, but I have a laymen's curiosity and interest.

I don't really know if and/or how evidence of universal acceleration forces any revisions to the expanding/contracting universe theory that I mentioned earlier. Maybe it doesn't force any changes to it at all. If not, then if this theory turns out to be correct, at some point our universe, as the OP kind of suggests, might literally implode with at first a gradual reversal of current expansion , but ultimately with dramatic violent force, compacting all energy and matter into a single point of maximum density.

So it goes.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

If there are any astrophysicists passing through, I would appreciate it if they would correct or clarify me where necessary.

At one time there was a theory put forth that eventually our expanding universe would reach a point of maximum expansion. At that point, so the theory stated, all matter in the universe would begin to contract back in on itself due to gravitational forces at the universal interior.

So, according to this theory, the explosion known as the Big Bang which sparked our expanding universe would eventually have an opposite counter force, if you will, some kind of vast cosmic implosion with the entire universe collapsing inward to once again form a pressurized point of intense heat and density that would in theory eventually again explode with a Big Bang.

However, if my understanding is correct, there is now evidence that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating. This acceleration is believed to be the result of "dark energy" and something about the way it displaces "dark matter". And that is about where I get lost. Actually, the whole subject is far over my head, but I have a laymen's curiosity and interest.

I don't really know if and/or how evidence of universal acceleration forces any revisions to the expanding/contracting universe theory that I mentioned earlier. Maybe it doesn't force any changes to it at all. If not, then if this theory turns out to be correct, at some point our universe, as the OP kind of suggests, might literally implode with at first a gradual reversal of current expansion , but ultimately with dramatic violent force, compacting all energy and matter into a single point of maximum density.

So it goes.

What little I know about it, is that gravity is not strong enough to stop the expansion, so if it does stop it wouldn't be from gravity.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This thread is proof that one needs a basic vocabulary to converse on a topic.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

This thread is proof that one needs a basic vocabulary to converse on a topic.

Come on AE, that is two jabs on this thread, what is so bad about it?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Come on AE, that is two jabs on this thread, what is so bad about it?

Reading this thread is like watching child paint a wall with feces.

There actually is beauty and intelligence in theoretical physics and not the chaotic nonsensical mess that is represented here.

You could meditate on E=mc2, the theory of relativity, or even the fabric of the universe(s).

You can wonder at the universe but for the love of God wonder with some kind of foresight.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Oh so perhaps since I abstractly posted this, and you have no idea why I posted it, it is feces. It's OK, I think it is pretty. Carry on, insult away :yes:

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Eliot -

Go to the bookstore and buy Stephen Hawking's book The Universe in a Nutshell. It isn't as entertaining as A Brief History of Time, but it does an excellent job of addressing your post, in laymen's terms.

The illustrations in it are pretty good too. They helped me grasp some of the concepts that are not easy to pick up by the written word.

Lastly, if you haven't read A Brief History of Time, get it too. Great book.


Edit: I just spoke to a close friend of mine that is also a Hawking fan, and he tells me that Hawking has published another bood called A Briefer History of Time. As soon as I get it and read it, I'll try to remember to start a thread on it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Oh so perhaps since I abstractly posted this, and you have no idea why I posted it, it is feces. It's OK, I think it is pretty. Carry on, insult away :yes:

I think that it is pretty, too. I join you in wondering at the magnificence of the fact that everything came from the Big Bang.

But I urge you to wonder thoughtfully.

 

[Beyondo]

The big bang starting from a singularity has always fascinated me. For one physicists go on and on about ideas and have now reached radical beliefs, such as parallel universes, M-theory has M-branes colliding, etc. But all that imagination isn't what we really see in the universe. What we do see is matter transforming into energy and energy into matter, how and why that happens is simply accepted, e = mc^2 describes the relation between rest mass and energy but doesn't describe the mechanism of how it happens. Secondly vacuum energy is everywhere, could it have existed before the big bang? Think of a universe that is a smooth dark starless place where vacuum energy is simply oozing everywhere. Imagine that at one moment vacuum energy coincidently manifested as a re-enforcing wave. In other words virtual particles, photons, created by vacuum energy suddenly ended up nearly supper imposed on one another on a monumental scale. Such an event would create a gravitational effect where the photons would end up trapping each other, effectively creating a black-hole. This massive electro magnetic wave would collapse to a point because photons can all occupy the same point in space simultaneously! Such a condition represents a conflict and that is finite mass creates a scenario of infinite energy. That is an irrational state, so intuitively something has got to give. Virtual mass is not rest mass and so super luminous photons are legal under relativistic principles, also under quantum mechanics the probability curves for such a condition instantly expanded. So an expansion seems a likely scenario. If this is the case then what many physicist believe that only one force existed at the moment of singularity would be correct, and that force would be gravity. Once the singularity expands the photons lower their energy states which would result in matter and anti-matter assimilation. From such assimilation mutual annihilation would result where what is left over is the matter we know today.

Well at least that's my version of the begining...I just hate parallel universes so I'm not a big fan of string theory. Here's my version of hyperspace:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/95931-hyper-dimensionalism-causality.html


And if I'm wrong...SO What!

 

[Eliot Wild]

I think that it is pretty, too. I join you in wondering at the magnificence of the fact that everything came from the Big Bang.

But I urge you to wonder thoughtfully.

Forgive me, but I too am a bit confused about your objections to this thread. Have we offended some sense of propriety you hold, one demanding that lay people, the uneducated, not discuss matters they don't know about, matters that are above them?

Also, how does one "wonder with foresight"? Seriously, I'm not being deliberatly obtuse, I honestly don't understand your statement. Foresight, by my understanding, is the ability to discern future events through properly judging conditions in the present, or something like that. How could either the OP or myself use foresight to avoid being so stupid.

Finally, since you have deemed our discussion to be the equivelant of a child attempting art with fecal matter, I would love to read your thoughts on the OP, as opposed to your personal insults. I mean, if that is how you engage others and you find it entertaining, that's cool. I get my kicks out of playing darts and throwing back a pint of cold beer on occassion. But I have met plenty of people who find it personally entertaining just to insult others, so I can dig that too. But, if you don't mind indulging us, why not tell us specifically how we've so trashed the actual subject and the science that deals with it? Or, are we too childish and stupid to understand any learned debriefing you might provide?

 

[Ethos88]

What I wonder if as easy as it started and all came about, can it just disappear? We know nothing of said question, and probably it is a stupid question, but if nothing makes our initial explosion special, than an implosion is just as possible at any time.

In short, yes.

 

[Beyondo]

The big bang starting from a singularity has always fascinated me. For one physicists go on and on about ideas and have now reached radical beliefs, such as parallel universes, M-theory has M-branes colliding, etc. But all that imagination isn't what we really see in the universe. What we do see is matter transforming into energy and energy into matter, how and why that happens is simply accepted, e = mc^2 describes the relation between rest mass and energy but doesn't describe the mechanism of how it happens. Secondly vacuum energy is everywhere, could it have existed before the big bang? Think of a universe that is a smooth dark starless place where vacuum energy is simply oozing everywhere. Imagine that at one moment vacuum energy coincidently manifested as a re-enforcing wave. In other words virtual particles, photons, created by vacuum energy suddenly ended up nearly supper imposed on one another on a monumental scale. Such an event would create a gravitational effect where the photons would end up trapping each other, effectively creating a black-hole. This massive electro magnetic wave would collapse to a point because photons can all occupy the same point in space simultaneously! Such a condition represents a conflict and that is finite mass creates a scenario of infinite energy. That is an irrational state, so intuitively something has got to give. Virtual mass is not rest mass and so super luminous photons are legal under relativistic principles, also under quantum mechanics the probability curves for such a condition instantly expanded. So an expansion seems a likely scenario. If this is the case then what many physicist believe that only one force existed at the moment of singularity would be correct, and that force would be gravity. Once the singularity expands the photons lower their energy states which would result in matter and anti-matter assimilation. From such assimilation mutual annihilation would result where what is left over is the matter we know today.

Well at least that's my version of the begining...I just hate parallel universes so I'm not a big fan of string theory. Here's my version of hyperspace:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/95931-hyper-dimensionalism-causality.html


And if I'm wrong...SO What!

I just wanted to add that using my quantum hyper-space model then as the electro-magentic wave condenses to an atomic scale hyper-dimensionality opens up and gravity, which is what is holding the photons together, breaks down. If you remember or have read, that gravity is not sustainable in more than 3 spacial dimensions. So it makes senses that quantum black holes have very short life spans and so a singularity would suffer the same fate and expand or loose mass at a phenomenal rate.

Anyone is welcome to argue this idea...

 

[Tiapan]

If there are any astrophysicists passing through, I would appreciate it if they would correct or clarify me where necessary.

At one time there was a theory put forth that eventually our expanding universe would reach a point of maximum expansion. At that point, so the theory stated, all matter in the universe would begin to contract back in on itself due to gravitational forces at the universal interior.

So, according to this theory, the explosion known as the Big Bang which sparked our expanding universe would eventually have an opposite counter force, if you will, some kind of vast cosmic implosion with the entire universe collapsing inward to once again form a pressurized point of intense heat and density that would in theory eventually again explode with a Big Bang.

However, if my understanding is correct, there is now evidence that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating. This acceleration is believed to be the result of "dark energy" and something about the way it displaces "dark matter". And that is about where I get lost. Actually, the whole subject is far over my head, but I have a laymen's curiosity and interest.

I don't really know if and/or how evidence of universal acceleration forces any revisions to the expanding/contracting universe theory that I mentioned earlier. Maybe it doesn't force any changes to it at all. If not, then if this theory turns out to be correct, at some point our universe, as the OP kind of suggests, might literally implode with at first a gradual reversal of current expansion , but ultimately with dramatic violent force, compacting all energy and matter into a single point of maximum density.

So it goes.

I posted this a week ago, I do not guarantee my ideas are correct but I believe it may be something to bounce some thoughts about.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/atheism-dir/97337-size-universe-never-smaller-than-30000-a.html

 

[Perfect Circle]

Reading this thread is like watching child paint a wall with feces.

There actually is beauty and intelligence in theoretical physics and not the chaotic nonsensical mess that is represented here.

You could meditate on E=mc2, the theory of relativity, or even the fabric of the universe(s).

You can wonder at the universe but for the love of God wonder with some kind of foresight.

Well that about wraps it up folks... no one allowed in this thread without a PhD in Physics. :sorry1:

 

[Beyondo]

Well that about wraps it up folks... no one allowed in this thread without a PhD in Physics. :sorry1:

That's easy all you have to do is believe in parallel universes and you can get one, or at least get funding for any research in physics...

 

[Bick]

Reversing backwards to 14 billion or there about years ago using modern science estimates, the initial energy was super hot possibly, and simply abundant with potential energy to say the least. It wasn't a very big beginning, perhaps the size of an atom. Yet within this there was the possibility for:

• Dinosaurs
• The Octave
• Consciousness
• Planets
• Oceans
• Whales
• Mountains
• Jupiter
• Milky Way
• Subway
• McDonald's
• Arlington Cemetery
• My dogs Max and Lady

All that from a single source of energy or matter depending on your choice of views. Yes it took a long time for these to come about, but it appears they did.

In fact, I was doing scales on the guitar the other day, and thought how strange the Big Bang was able to not only deliver the goods for me to be born, but also for the sounds of our world to be so harmonious with my perception and ears.

When I was painting, I was in awe from what the Big Bang could deliver in terms of complimentary colors and how they works so well together for a visual stimulus for my brain.

Going back to the beginning of the big bang, it is short of miraculous what has developed up until today.

All by chance, what a lottery ticket the Universe has turned out to be!

MY COMMENTS: I disagree that it is all by chance. The Sovereign God created it all from the greatest source of energy known: Himself; and with a plan.

"FOR FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS. TO HIM BE THE GLORY FOREVER." Romans 11:36, NRSV.

Notice: "from Him or through Him" tells us the source of all energy. Science speculates on how small and how heavy that initial mass was. Well, God started it all the way it would work.

And "to him are all things", that is, God planned it so that all would abound for His glory, through Christ the Lord.

The end of God's revealed purpose for the ages will be glorious. When all enemies will have been "put under the feet", the last enemy abolished is death; and with no more death...no more sin. Then, Christ Jesus, with all beings both on the earth and in the heavenlies being subjected to Him will turn over the kingdom to God the Father, that God may be All in all. Please study 1 Cor. 15:22-28 and Hebrews 9:26.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

MY COMMENTS: I disagree that it is all by chance. The Sovereign God created it all from the greatest source of energy known: Himself; and with a plan.

"FOR FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS. TO HIM BE THE GLORY FOREVER." Romans 11:36, NRSV.

Notice: "from Him or through Him" tells us the source of all energy. Science speculates on how small and how heavy that initial mass was. Well, God started it all the way it would work.

And "to him are all things", that is, God planned it so that all would abound for His glory, through Christ the Lord.

The end of God's revealed purpose for the ages will be glorious. When all enemies will have been "put under the feet", the last enemy abolished is death; and with no more death...no more sin. Then, Christ Jesus, with all beings both on the earth and in the heavenlies being subjected to Him will turn over the kingdom to God the Father, that God may be All in all. Please study 1 Cor. 15:22-28 and Hebrews 9:26.

Well, your disagreement is noted, but really - why should we give your myth any more weight than we give the myths of other religions?

For me, I'll just stick with what science can help us understand, and wait for more evidence to show us what we don't know yet. The myths may give you comfort, but they are almost certainly nothing more than grandiose versions of Paul Bunyon and his ilk.