God's Plan

[Madhuri]

Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Good question. You are correct that everything is a part of God's plan. God does not control or force people to do things, but he anticipates their choices and is able to plan on them. God did not create Satan evil, Satan chose to be evil. While God did not create Satan, he allows us to be tempted by him. The only way for us to grow and progress is to make choices. We have to learn how to be good people. How can we learn to be good if the only choice is goodness?

 

[Madhuri]

Where did evil come from in order for Satan to choose it? Is it part of God or did He create it? (and from what?)

 

[John D]

Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

My personal thoughts:

God knows the outcome of all thoughts and decissions, and warns people against wrong choices - how it is perceived by man is a different story. Some will see it as fate, prophecies,spirit guidance, psychic abillities and what not.

The choice is still man's decission. One generation lives with the results of previous generations choices.Human freedom and human rights created a violent society with low moral standards and a lot of selfish pride. There is still a harvest for our children's children to reap.
Is it the Will of God?
Yes !
The will of God is for man to take responsibility of his life and the life of others, to make the right choices for the sake of others.
What does "Satan" stands for: Adversary - he is not a god equel to the Creator God, but, is equel to mankind and has to be defeated by mankind. Was he created by God - Yes he was.
His power lies in the mind of man.
How kan man defeat Satan?
By defeating your own personal"satan" - the ability for wrong choicemaking.
If God created this force of evil - think about the powerful force that God created in every human heart to combat this force
And that is also the will of God.
We choosed to call it evolution.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

As you know I don't think I believe in it anymore, but I don't mind offering a response.

Overall, when the dust settles, there are two options. Choice 1, either all beings have a choice to make, and God simply stays out of that for the most part. Or choice 2, God created the evil for his own purposes, of which he promises in the bible one day it will all be good and evil will not exist anymore.

That is where the argument lies among those concerned with such things. Everyone will scurry off to grab a quote or two which they think supports their views, but in the end, it takes an individual to look at all the evidence for themselves, and not just a quote or two, or fifty even. It takes you studying the bible and asking yourself, what is implied about all this evil and devil stuff.

Can you think of another way around that?

Good question. You are correct that everything is a part of God's plan. God does not control or force people to do things, but he anticipates their choices and is able to plan on them. God did not create Satan evil, Satan chose to be evil. While God did not create Satan, he allows us to be tempted by him. The only way for us to grow and progress is to make choices. We have to learn how to be good people. How can we learn to be good if the only choice is goodness?

My only problem with this explanation is that the bible does not give NEAR enough info to conclude what you are concluding. You simply have to leave the bible to fill those gaps. Once you leave the bible, is it still Christianity? Maybe it is, I'll leave that up to you to decide for yourself.

 

[2nd mouse]

My personal thoughts:

God knows the outcome of all thoughts and decissions, and warns people against wrong choices - how it is perceived by man is a different story. Some will see it as fate, prophecies,spirit guidance, psychic abillities and what not.

The choice is still man's decission. One generation lives with the results of previous generations choices.Human freedom and human rights created a violent society with low moral standards and a lot of selfish pride. There is still a harvest for our children's children to reap.
Is it the Will of God?
Yes !
The will of God is for man to take responsibility of his life and the life of others, to make the right choices for the sake of others.
What does "Satan" stands for: Adversary - he is not a god equel to the Creator God, but, is equel to mankind and has to be defeated by mankind. Was he created by God - Yes he was.
His power lies in the mind of man.
How kan man defeat Satan?
By defeating your own personal"satan" - the ability for wrong choicemaking.
If God created this force of evil - think about the powerful force that God created in every human heart to combat this force
And that is also the will of God.
We choosed to call it evolution.

John D, I've been reading your posts on various subjects since I joined the forum a week or so ago. Man I sure do appreciate your insight. You seem to always have well thought out responses based on reason and what appears to be a firm grasp on what the bible means as well as what it says. I wish I had the mental prowess to contribute or even participate on your level.

here goes my attempt to address the opening post.... everything about God's ways is a mystery. In order to understand individual mysteries I think you have to have an understanding of the overview. I believe that overview is that God's main "plan" is to glorify Himself.

Many people do not make a distinction between God making something happen and letting something happen. God did not make evil but He let it happen. Evil is not a force or energy unto itself. It is actually the result of the displacement of a force or energy. It is much the same as cold or darkness are not forces or energy unti themselves.

Cold has no energy. You cannot create cold. All you can do is remove heat energy.
Likewise darkness. You cannot create darkness. All you can do is remove light energy. Evil is result of removing good energy.

Back to the topic... While God did not create the circumstances we find ourselves in on earth, He certainly knew it would happen. He warned mankind through Adam to not depart from His guidance or there would be dire consequences. And that is what we are living in now. But while God is not supportive of mankinds stewardship of this earth, He was well aware it would turn out like this and in fact uses it to further His main plan of Glorifying Himself. Of coarse that is the awsome rescue of mankind through Jesus Christ. It is simply an awsome reality and perfect in wisdom.

 

[dust1n]

My personal thoughts:

God knows the outcome of all thoughts and decissions, and warns people against wrong choices - how it is perceived by man is a different story. Some will see it as fate, prophecies,spirit guidance, psychic abillities and what not.

Just a quick question. If God knows the outcome of all thoughts and decisions, how could a human pick any other thought or decision then what God knows they are going to make in advance?

 

[2nd mouse]

Just a quick question. If God knows the outcome of all thoughts and decisions, how could a human pick any other thought or decision then what God knows they are going to make in advance?

Can I try this one John D?

Well dust1n, your question implies that the result of God's knowing takes away your choice but it doesn't.

 

[dust1n]

Can I try this one John D?

Well dust1n, your question implies that the result of God's knowing takes away your choice but it doesn't.

My question only implies that the result of God's knowing takes away your choice, because I'm asking how one retains "free will to choice" when God knows what your "free will to choice" is ahead of time.

Example:

God knows I'm going to hell before I am born. How do I make it to heaven?

 

[2nd mouse]

My question only implies that the result of God's knowing takes away your choice, because I'm asking how one retains "free will to choice" when God knows what your "free will to choice" is ahead of time.

I think God knowing what a person is going to do doesn't affect that persons power of choice.

Example:

God knows I'm going to hell before I am born. How do I make it to heaven?

This is a different scenario than the one above. The one above is talking about a process that determines outcome. This one is talking about the outcome of the process.

But to answer you question as posted, you can't.

 

[John D]

My question only implies that the result of God's knowing takes away your choice, because I'm asking how one retains "free will to choice" when God knows what your "free will to choice" is ahead of time.

Example:

God knows I'm going to hell before I am born. How do I make it to heaven?

God knows the end of all choices,yes. He also knows that you can at any time choose not to go to hell.That is why He made a way for that to happen.
A long time ago I made a choice to do as I please, no rules, no commitment.
I crashed and burned. And - in shame- made a new choice, the lifeline God left hanging for me. Now I choose to listen to that voice in my heart,a lot of warnings coming from there - the best navigator a man can want.
A Lot of the Fire and brimstone stuff in the Bible are these warnings amplified by man's fear and rebellion - If you change course it won't happen.

 

[John D]

My question only implies that the result of God's knowing takes away your choice, because I'm asking how one retains "free will to choice" when God knows what your "free will to choice" is ahead of time.

Example:

God knows I'm going to hell before I am born. How do I make it to heaven?

Pro 5:21-23 For the ways of man are directly before the eyes of the Lord, and He [Who would have us live soberly, chastely, and godly] carefully weighs all man's goings. [II Chron. 16:9; Job 31:4; 34:21; Prov. 15:3; Jer. 16:17; Hos. 7:2; Heb. 4:13.] His own iniquities shall ensnare the wicked man, and he shall be held with the cords of his sin. He will die for lack of discipline and instruction, and in the greatness of his folly he will go astray and be lost.

.............How do I make it to heaven?[/quote]
Choose to and follow the "Map( I am the way.....................)"

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Where did evil come from in order for Satan to choose it? Is it part of God or did He create it? (and from what?)

No Evil is not a part of God. Nor did God create it. Good and Evil are fundamental to the universe. God does not create them, he understands and works through them. Just like we do not create gravity, but understanding how it works can help us advance.

 

[TheNorthernExodus]

Where did evil come from in order for Satan to choose it? Is it part of God or did He create it? (and from what?)

Good and Evil are not the best ways of looking at the situation imho,

It is easier to grasp it if you draw a long line on a sheet of paper as attempted below.


God-------------------------------------------------------------------------Evil

Evil is nothing but the distance between yourself and God, to me evil in a biblical sense is not defined by acts of horror etc but by how far you remove yourself from God, the closer on the line you are to God the less evil you are.

Not that I am calling any non believers here evil, I am working from a different definition of the word.
Sin is the path of dashes in the line that lead away from God, we are not perfect and most of us will sin but the Bible simply tells us Jesus has this covered if we accept the gift.
All we have to do other than that is repent when we go wrong and try the best we can to do better.
Simple enough.

Satan means adversary and in relation to God we can all make ourselves a satan/adversary to him but its a bad move to make.
But we get plenty of warning of this, if we rebel anyway then so be it, though when I look at what little is asked for so much in return I find it hard to see why anyone would,

 

[rusra02]

Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

Now I also know some beliefs such as eternal hell and suffering, the idea that the Devil controls most of the earth and its inhabitants etc.

How does this fit into God's plan? How to do perceive it? I struggle to think of a God that purposefully creates a force of evil knowing that it will corrupt the hearts of most men who will then be condemned to eternal damnation.

As a Christian, how do you perceive this or understand it? I am sure that my understanding is incomplete.

It is a good question you asked. Actually, God did not plan for Satan to rebel against him, nor did he plan for man to sin against him. God's loving purpose was (and is) for men and women to enjoy everlasting life on the Earth, where God placed the first man and woman. He put them into a garden like area and gave them the objective to "Be fruitful and become many, and fill the earth and subdue it" having the animals in subjection (Genesis 1:28). God "blessed them" as vs. 28 says.
With a perfect start, Adam and Eve had the prospect of filling the earth with offspring who also could live forever. This prospect depended on their proper recognition of God as their rightful ruler.
Under the influence of an angel who made himself into a resister of God, Adam and Eve rebelled against their Creator. This act led to sin and death (Romans 5:12) for them and their unborn offspring. Happily, God never changed his purpose. He has made provision to bring to reality the promise of Revelation 21:3,4; "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

While God did not plan for man's fall or Satan's rebellion, He is fully capable of dealing with whatever occurs and bringing his purpose to completion. Millions today ignore God and do what is right in their own eyes. They make this choice, just as Satan choose to slander God and men and become an opposer. Wise people submit themselves to the true God and learn the truth about him. (John 4:23,24) The truth is, indeed, out there.

 

[lockyfan]

Ok, I'm sure you've all had this question posed before so I'd like to keep it quick and simple.
My understanding is that Christians believe that everything that is and has been is all part of God's plan. Correct?
It seems that this must also mean that Satan is/was part of God's plan, especially considering that God is omniscient. Yes?

No satan was not part of the "plan"


God has always had a purpose for hte earth. . that was for humans to live forever on it. . the Heavens stayed as his, we had the earth.

Satan turned himself into an opposer and resister of God (they are the meaning behund the names Satan and Devil) and took his own path and not that Of JEhovahs. Now Jehovah has lovingly provided for us a way out of the mess and that is through faith in Christs reusrrection being able to eventually bring humans back to hte perfection we should have had all along.

He has a day set and that day is fast approaching according to bible prophesy
(Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, Psalms 37:10-11 and 29)

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Ok, God knows that in ten minutes, I'm going to slap my mom. He knows 100%, because he is God, and he cannot be wrong with unlimited knowledge. In ten minutes, I walk up to my mom. If I did not slap her, I would be proving God wrong (which I think ends up in the universe imploding on itself), or I would slap her and God would be write.

God would know about this incident before I was even born. He would know the exact run of my life. What and how it defined me, how much was influenced by DNA or my environment, how everything in my life would be leading up to me slapping my mother. How could I not slap my mother at that point?

Your argument is due to the fact that you (can't blame you) think that causality only flows forward in time. God knowing what you are going to do is not the cause of you doing it. Your doing it is the cause of God knowing what you will do. Whatever you choose, God knows it and can therefore plan on it. If God knows I am going to slap my mom, I won't choose something different. If I did, it would cause God to have known my choice. God allows us to make choices, even knowing ahead of time what we will choose. The future for him is the way the past is for us. Does the fact that we know what happened in the past mean that there was no free will involved? Is the present any more real than the past? Than the future?

 

[Madhuri]

No Evil is not a part of God. Nor did God create it. Good and Evil are fundamental to the universe. God does not create them, he understands and works through them. Just like we do not create gravity, but understanding how it works can help us advance.

Wait, what? If God created everything such as the universe then he also created the laws that make it function. How could he not create evil? If God is the source of everything then nothing can exist without his intention or design.

 

[Madhuri]

It is a good question you asked. Actually, God did not plan for Satan to rebel against him, nor did he plan for man to sin against him. God's loving purpose was (and is) for men and women to enjoy everlasting life on the Earth, where God placed the first man and woman. He put them into a garden like area and gave them the objective to "Be fruitful and become many, and fill the earth and subdue it" having the animals in subjection (Genesis 1:28). God "blessed them" as vs. 28 says.
With a perfect start, Adam and Eve had the prospect of filling the earth with offspring who also could live forever. This prospect depended on their proper recognition of God as their rightful ruler.
Under the influence of an angel who made himself into a resister of God, Adam and Eve rebelled against their Creator. This act led to sin and death (Romans 5:12) for them and their unborn offspring. Happily, God never changed his purpose. He has made provision to bring to reality the promise of Revelation 21:3,4; "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

While God did not plan for man's fall or Satan's rebellion, He is fully capable of dealing with whatever occurs and bringing his purpose to completion. Millions today ignore God and do what is right in their own eyes. They make this choice, just as Satan choose to slander God and men and become an opposer. Wise people submit themselves to the true God and learn the truth about him. (John 4:23,24) The truth is, indeed, out there.

Ok, so God created Satan and man knowing exactly what would happen.

I wonder how any child of God who is made in the image of God can make decisions 'against' Him. How can anything made from perfection not be perfect?
I wonder because anything that exists can only exist with the intent and design of the Creator. This means that our compulsions and desires can only exist because they are allowed to. Why would God allow us to desire something 'evil'? I do not see that as free will. It seems more like a test. But then God also made us weak, right?

 

[Madhuri]

No satan was not part of the "plan"


God has always had a purpose for hte earth. . that was for humans to live forever on it. . the Heavens stayed as his, we had the earth.

Satan turned himself into an opposer and resister of God (they are the meaning behund the names Satan and Devil) and took his own path and not that Of JEhovahs. Now Jehovah has lovingly provided for us a way out of the mess and that is through faith in Christs reusrrection being able to eventually bring humans back to hte perfection we should have had all along.

He has a day set and that day is fast approaching according to bible prophesy
(Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, Psalms 37:10-11 and 29)

So to clarify, God planned for some humans to live on this earth after many, many years of unnecessary corruption and suffering and delusion? Or was it necessary?