Jesus is God?

[whatistruth07]

A. Who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to be:

1. First lets ask the angel Gabriel? Luke 1:35 - Son of God

2. Next John the Baptist testified him to be: John 1:34 -- Son of God

3. Jehovah himself declared him to be his son: Matthew 17:5

4. Who did the apostle John say we need to believe Jesus to be?
1 John 4:15 -- The Son of God

5. How about the apostle Peter? Let's hear from Peter: Matthew 16:13-16 -- The Son of the Living God

6. Who did God promise to send? Himself? John 3:16 -- His only-begotten Son

7. Who did Jesus tell Thomas to believe him to be? John 20:29-31 -- The Christ, The Son of God

8. Now, let's hear from Jesus himself. I wonder if he knew who he was???
John 10:36 -- "I am God's Son."

9. The chief priest of Israel said Jesus called himself what?
Matthew 27:43 -- God's Son

10. Now did Jesus, under oath, declare himself to be God? NO!
Matthew 26:63-64 -- God's Son

11. What about Mark? What did he have to say about it?
Mark 14:61-62 -- God's Son

12. What about the testimony of an army officer?
Mark 15:34-39 -- Son of God

13 Apostle Paul, the chief of the apostles, after getting the Truth
went into the synagogues immediately and taught Jesus to be what? The
number two person of a Godhead??? Let's look and see:
Acts 9:20 -- No, it's not there either. Paul said Jesus was the
Son of God, after he returned to heaven.

14. Well now, we have heard from the brothers in the early Christian
congregations. Maybe the brothers are mixed-up. Let's ask a sister --
Martha -- who she believed Jesus to be:
John 11:27 -- Son of God

B. Consider: Jesus gave us two important rules to go by to establish
this argument.

One is stated in Hebrews 7:7 -- One blessed is lesser than one blessing him.
Read: Psalms 21:3 -- Jehovah blessed Jesus; so, who is greater?
Jehovah, right!!! -- John 14:28
Read: Genesis 14:18, 19 -- Who's greater: Melchizedek or Abraham?
Melchizedek right!!!

Second: The one sent is lesser than the one sending.Read: John 4:34 -- God sent Jesus John 13:16 -- Who's the greater: Jesus or Jehovah?
Read: 1 Corinthians 11:3

C. What about the demons? Do you think the demons are Trinitarians?
Did they believe Jesus was God himself? Read: Luke 8:26-28

II. Now that we have seen who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to
be, let's look at the other side of the mystery!!!!

A. Who the clergy think Jesus to be:

1. God, the Son.
2. The 2nd person in the blessed Trinity.
3. Equal to God.
4. Has no beginning; not created.

B. CONCLUSION: Jesus is the son of the Living God.

1. John 14:6 -- No one come to the Father except through me.

2. He inherits all things from his Father. -- Galatians 1:16; Hebrews1:2

3. He helped his Father in the creation work. -- Genesis 1:26; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16, 17 Including millions of angels -- Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11

4. Jesus continues as the Word of God or His spokesman, even after he
returned to heaven. -- Revelation 19:13, 16

5. Jesus said he lived because of the Father. -- John 6:56, 57

6. Jesus credited the Father with the creation of all things. -- Matthew 19:4-6

7. If Jesus IS God, then God died on the torture stake and the Bible is
wrong when it tells us God cannot die. -- Habakkuk 1:12

8 After the 1,000 years Jesus is still in subjection to his Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28

9. Because Matthew 28:19 uses the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit together in one sentence, Trinitarians believe they are all one. Ridiculous!! If I say the Sun, Moon and Stars are the light of the Earth, I don't mean they are one, do I? NO!

10. They say John 1:1 declares a trinity. No, no. Only two are there not three!

Besides: Read John 1:14 -- It says it was the Word of God that became
flesh and NOT God Himself.

Further, many people saw Jesus but the Bible says at John 1:18 that no
man has ever seen God.

11. Look up John 4:12 Something Jesus nor the angels knew -- Mark 13:32.
He prayed to his Father for help. -- Luke 22:41, 42

12 Also, Jesus has a God, so , he cannot be God. -- John 20:17

13. John 17:3 -- He called his Father the only True God.

14. Jesus is the first-born of all creation. -- Revelation 3:14;
Colossians 1:15-17

15. Jehovah has no beginning. He always was and always will be. --
Psalms 90:2; Revelation 15:3

16. Some use 1 John 5:7 to prove the Trinity. Spurious text! This is NOT in most manuscripts!! But, if it was, it STILL doesn't prove a Trinity because the 5th chapter
of 1 John carries the theme of Jesus being the Son of God.

17. So, if these three are in agreement, it is to this fact: Jesus is the Son Of God.
God cannot lie -- Titus 1:2 God of Truth -- Psalms 31:5 His word is Truth -- Psalms 119:160

IV. Holy Spirit A Greek word (Paraklete) means "helping hand."

B. 20 - 25 years later these brothers could write down the truth with
that power. -- John 16:13

C. Jesus is now the man in charge of the Holy Spirit. -- John 15:26; John
16:7
D. He poured it out at Pentecost; you cannot pour out a person. --
Acts 2:17

 

[Ronald]

Whatistruth07; good job!
Shalom u'vracha

 

[sojourner]

A. Who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to be:

1. First lets ask the angel Gabriel? Luke 1:35 - Son of God

2. Next John the Baptist testified him to be: John 1:34 -- Son of God

3. Jehovah himself declared him to be his son: Matthew 17:5

4. Who did the apostle John say we need to believe Jesus to be?
1 John 4:15 -- The Son of God

5. How about the apostle Peter? Let's hear from Peter: Matthew 16:13-16 -- The Son of the Living God

6. Who did God promise to send? Himself? John 3:16 -- His only-begotten Son

7. Who did Jesus tell Thomas to believe him to be? John 20:29-31 -- The Christ, The Son of God

8. Now, let's hear from Jesus himself. I wonder if he knew who he was???
John 10:36 -- "I am God's Son."

9. The chief priest of Israel said Jesus called himself what?
Matthew 27:43 -- God's Son

10. Now did Jesus, under oath, declare himself to be God? NO!
Matthew 26:63-64 -- God's Son

11. What about Mark? What did he have to say about it?
Mark 14:61-62 -- God's Son

12. What about the testimony of an army officer?
Mark 15:34-39 -- Son of God

13 Apostle Paul, the chief of the apostles, after getting the Truth
went into the synagogues immediately and taught Jesus to be what? The
number two person of a Godhead??? Let's look and see:
Acts 9:20 -- No, it's not there either. Paul said Jesus was the
Son of God, after he returned to heaven.

14. Well now, we have heard from the brothers in the early Christian
congregations. Maybe the brothers are mixed-up. Let's ask a sister --
Martha -- who she believed Jesus to be:
John 11:27 -- Son of God

B. Consider: Jesus gave us two important rules to go by to establish
this argument.

One is stated in Hebrews 7:7 -- One blessed is lesser than one blessing him.
Read: Psalms 21:3 -- Jehovah blessed Jesus; so, who is greater?
Jehovah, right!!! -- John 14:28
Read: Genesis 14:18, 19 -- Who's greater: Melchizedek or Abraham?
Melchizedek right!!!

Second: The one sent is lesser than the one sending.Read: John 4:34 -- God sent Jesus John 13:16 -- Who's the greater: Jesus or Jehovah?
Read: 1 Corinthians 11:3

C. What about the demons? Do you think the demons are Trinitarians?
Did they believe Jesus was God himself? Read: Luke 8:26-28

II. Now that we have seen who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to
be, let's look at the other side of the mystery!!!!

A. Who the clergy think Jesus to be:

1. God, the Son.
2. The 2nd person in the blessed Trinity.
3. Equal to God.
4. Has no beginning; not created.

B. CONCLUSION: Jesus is the son of the Living God.

1. John 14:6 -- No one come to the Father except through me.

2. He inherits all things from his Father. -- Galatians 1:16; Hebrews1:2

3. He helped his Father in the creation work. -- Genesis 1:26; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16, 17 Including millions of angels -- Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11

4. Jesus continues as the Word of God or His spokesman, even after he
returned to heaven. -- Revelation 19:13, 16

5. Jesus said he lived because of the Father. -- John 6:56, 57

6. Jesus credited the Father with the creation of all things. -- Matthew 19:4-6

7. If Jesus IS God, then God died on the torture stake and the Bible is
wrong when it tells us God cannot die. -- Habakkuk 1:12

8 After the 1,000 years Jesus is still in subjection to his Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28

9. Because Matthew 28:19 uses the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit together in one sentence, Trinitarians believe they are all one. Ridiculous!! If I say the Sun, Moon and Stars are the light of the Earth, I don't mean they are one, do I? NO!

10. They say John 1:1 declares a trinity. No, no. Only two are there not three!

Besides: Read John 1:14 -- It says it was the Word of God that became
flesh and NOT God Himself.

Further, many people saw Jesus but the Bible says at John 1:18 that no
man has ever seen God.

11. Look up John 4:12 Something Jesus nor the angels knew -- Mark 13:32.
He prayed to his Father for help. -- Luke 22:41, 42

12 Also, Jesus has a God, so , he cannot be God. -- John 20:17

13. John 17:3 -- He called his Father the only True God.

14. Jesus is the first-born of all creation. -- Revelation 3:14;
Colossians 1:15-17

15. Jehovah has no beginning. He always was and always will be. --
Psalms 90:2; Revelation 15:3

16. Some use 1 John 5:7 to prove the Trinity. Spurious text! This is NOT in most manuscripts!! But, if it was, it STILL doesn't prove a Trinity because the 5th chapter
of 1 John carries the theme of Jesus being the Son of God.

17. So, if these three are in agreement, it is to this fact: Jesus is the Son Of God.
God cannot lie -- Titus 1:2 God of Truth -- Psalms 31:5 His word is Truth -- Psalms 119:160

IV. Holy Spirit A Greek word (Paraklete) means "helping hand."

B. 20 - 25 years later these brothers could write down the truth with
that power. -- John 16:13

C. Jesus is now the man in charge of the Holy Spirit. -- John 15:26; John
16:7
D. He poured it out at Pentecost; you cannot pour out a person. --
Acts 2:17

There are problems with both your exegesis and your theological development that are too numerous to mention. Suffice to say that the term used by the gospel writers, "Son of God" does not in any way negate Jesus as the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

You do not believe that a person can be purely Spirit? God is a person, but the scriptures say that "God is a Spirit." If a person can be purely Spirit (and I believe it's not only possible but true) then the H.S. could be "poured out."

Sorry. Try again.

 

[Muffled]

There are problems with both your exegesis and your theological development that are too numerous to mention. Suffice to say that the term used by the gospel writers, "Son of God" does not in any way negate Jesus as the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

You do not believe that a person can be purely Spirit? God is a person, but the scriptures say that "God is a Spirit." If a person can be purely Spirit (and I believe it's not only possible but true) then the H.S. could be "poured out."

Sorry. Try again.

There can't be three persons because there are not three spirits: Eph. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

If there were separate spirits for each incarnation there would be millions of them not three. And then how could Paul say this about the gifts: I Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all.

 

[Muffled]

A. Who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to be:

1. First lets ask the angel Gabriel? Luke 1:35 - Son of God


B. Consider: Jesus gave us two important rules to go by to establish
this argument.

One is stated in Hebrews 7:7 -- One blessed is lesser than one blessing him.
Read: Psalms 21:3 -- Jehovah blessed Jesus; so, who is greater?
Jehovah, right!!! -- John 14:28
Read: Genesis 14:18, 19 -- Who's greater: Melchizedek or Abraham?
Melchizedek right!!!

Second: The one sent is lesser than the one sending.Read: John 4:34 -- God sent Jesus John 13:16 -- Who's the greater: Jesus or Jehovah?
Read: 1 Corinthians 11:3

II. Now that we have seen who the people of the Bible thought Jesus to
be, let's look at the other side of the mystery!!!!

A. Who the clergy think Jesus to be:

1. God, the Son.
2. The 2nd person in the blessed Trinity.
3. Equal to God.
4. Has no beginning; not created.

B. CONCLUSION: Jesus is the son of the Living God.

1. John 14:6 -- No one come to the Father except through me.

2. He inherits all things from his Father. -- Galatians 1:16; Hebrews1:2

3. He helped his Father in the creation work. -- Genesis 1:26; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16, 17 Including millions of angels -- Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11

4. Jesus continues as the Word of God or His spokesman, even after he
returned to heaven. -- Revelation 19:13, 16

5. Jesus said he lived because of the Father. -- John 6:56, 57

6. Jesus credited the Father with the creation of all things. -- Matthew 19:4-6

7. If Jesus IS God, then God died on the torture stake and the Bible is
wrong when it tells us God cannot die. -- Habakkuk 1:12

8 After the 1,000 years Jesus is still in subjection to his Father.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28

9. Because Matthew 28:19 uses the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit together in one sentence, Trinitarians believe they are all one. Ridiculous!! If I say the Sun, Moon and Stars are the light of the Earth, I don't mean they are one, do I? NO!

10. They say John 1:1 declares a trinity. No, no. Only two are there not three!

Besides: Read John 1:14 -- It says it was the Word of God that became
flesh and NOT God Himself.

Further, many people saw Jesus but the Bible says at John 1:18 that no
man has ever seen God.

11. Look up John 4:12 Something Jesus nor the angels knew -- Mark 13:32.
He prayed to his Father for help. -- Luke 22:41, 42

12 Also, Jesus has a God, so , he cannot be God. -- John 20:17

13. John 17:3 -- He called his Father the only True God.

14. Jesus is the first-born of all creation. -- Revelation 3:14;
Colossians 1:15-17

15. Jehovah has no beginning. He always was and always will be. --
Psalms 90:2; Revelation 15:3

16. Some use 1 John 5:7 to prove the Trinity. Spurious text! This is NOT in most manuscripts!! But, if it was, it STILL doesn't prove a Trinity because the 5th chapter
of 1 John carries the theme of Jesus being the Son of God.

17. So, if these three are in agreement, it is to this fact: Jesus is the Son Of God.
God cannot lie -- Titus 1:2 God of Truth -- Psalms 31:5 His word is Truth -- Psalms 119:160

IV. Holy Spirit A Greek word (Paraklete) means "helping hand."

B. 20 - 25 years later these brothers could write down the truth with
that power. -- John 16:13

C. Jesus is now the man in charge of the Holy Spirit. -- John 15:26; John
16:7
D. He poured it out at Pentecost; you cannot pour out a person. --
Acts 2:17

I agree that Jesus is the Son of God but that does not preclude His divinity but rather underscores it. God does not have a son the way man has a son. He doesn't procreate or create a new version of Himself. When man has a son the son has a different spirit from that of His father but God has the same Spirit. The only thing that makes Jesus a Son is that God has presented himself bodily to the world as a newborn baby boy. When God presented Himself to Abraham it was as an adult.

Jesus never gave rules about this. You are doing make believe in your head.

The greater argument is an old argument. The problem is that you have not abnegated the divinity of Jesus this way because you have not been able to show that the difference is substantive rather than relational. By that I mean the greater concept does not stem from a difference in the Spirit that is in the body but from the fact that the Spirit is in the body. For instance the spirit of God in Jerusalem (not even counting a body) is a finite representation but God is infinte. The concept of a sender that is superior begs the question that there is a receiver but there is not. How is God going to enter the world if He does not send His spirit into the body? The body is the receptor not another person that is lesser than God. I will grant that the body is not God but for most purposes the two are inseparable.

This is absolutely true that Jesus didn't die on the cross. The Spirit of God within left and then the body died. However the result is the same: Jesus is dead. No, God did not die but then neither do you or I when our bodies perish.

I have seen this error many times. You are trying to create a new God for each attribute of God. The Word is an attribute of God. It can't be divested from God any more than His power or omnipresence. Saying that the Word became flesh is the same thing as saying that God became flesh.

Para Kletos: Para means joined with; Kletos means called or invited. The Holy Spirit accompanies the believer (as Lord) when He is invited.

 

[Muffled]

I think you've got it backward. It would be part of creation if the usual, physical means of human procreation were employed (as in the ova). it would be a spiritual begetting because there was no sperm present.
But I think I generally agree with your statement. However, I think that the "begetting" part really has nothing to do with the virgin birth event, but derives, rather, from the statement in John's prologue that Jesus was in the beginning with God. It probably also derives from the hymn in Philippians 2.

Granted that man was created with the ability to procreate but the procreation itself does not require a further intervention of God whereas the Virgin birth does.

I can't imagine what you think this is.

Since the body had not yet been created, then the only way this statement can be true is if Jesus is with God conceptually ie. God knew He would be visiting His creation in the flesh as Messiah at the beginning of creation. However I tend to view it differently. I think John simply is laying out the divinity of Jesus. Obviously God is always with Himself. How could it be otherwise?

The English word begetting does not refer to the spiritual entrance into the body but simply to the means by which a baby is conceived. Jesus is conceived, so he is begotten. The instance where God enters an adult body to visit Abraham is not a conception and not a begetting but it does fulfill the principles of John1 and Phillipians 2.

 

[sojourner]

There can't be three persons because there are not three spirits: Eph. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

If there were separate spirits for each incarnation there would be millions of them not three. And then how could Paul say this about the gifts: I Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all.

God is a Spirit. Jesus has that same Spirit -- which is the Holy Spirit. That same Spirit is poured out to all humanity. You don't believe in God's omnipresence?

 

[sojourner]

Granted that man was created with the ability to procreate but the procreation itself does not require a further intervention of God whereas the Virgin birth does.

I can't imagine what you think this is.

Since the body had not yet been created, then the only way this statement can be true is if Jesus is with God conceptually ie. God knew He would be visiting His creation in the flesh as Messiah at the beginning of creation. However I tend to view it differently. I think John simply is laying out the divinity of Jesus. Obviously God is always with Himself. How could it be otherwise?

The English word begetting does not refer to the spiritual entrance into the body but simply to the means by which a baby is conceived. Jesus is conceived, so he is begotten. The instance where God enters an adult body to visit Abraham is not a conception and not a begetting but it does fulfill the principles of John1 and Phillipians 2.

Any time life happens, God has acted. I don't know what you're talking about here.

I don't try to analyze it. Christ was begotten, not created. That means that God didn't use fully human means to beget Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

God is a Spirit. Jesus has that same Spirit -- which is the Holy Spirit. That same Spirit is poured out to all humanity. You don't believe in God's omnipresence?

You are correct in your assertions.

I do believe that God is omnipresent as one person (spiritually not physically speaking).

 

[Muffled]

Any time life happens, God has acted. I don't know what you're talking about here.

I don't try to analyze it. Christ was begotten, not created. That means that God didn't use fully human means to beget Jesus.

Are you saying that God is completely deterministic? God has produced beings with reproductive capabilities that He does no have to change in any way for them to work. He has set earth on an orbit around the sun and it will continue to do so unless He changes it. I am saying that God has set sytems in motion that will continue in motion unless some outside force interrupts that motion. The virgin birth is an interruption of the reproductive process that would not have produced a child because there was no sexual act to further the process of reproduction into conception. Reproduction took place becasue God intervened in the process and provided a creation that made conception possible.

I don't analyze. Everything comes to me by the Holy Spirit. Christ was begotten by creation. Otherwise you are either saying that Joseph is the father and Mary and Gabiel were lying about her being a virgin or you are saying that God manifested as a man and fertilized Mary by sexual intercourse which again makes both Mary and Gabriel liars.

in any event in order to say there is no creation you have to deny the Word of God to do so.

 

[gzusfrk]

He existed in the form of god, but did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped philippians 2:6

 

[Muffled]

He existed in the form of god, but did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped philippians 2:6

The word "form" is probaly a mis-nomer. No-one really knows whether God has a form or not and can it really be said of the Infinite? I wonder what the Greek word was and whether there is a different translation.

"Equality" I can understand since it is the Spirit of God that is in Jesus and we can saffely say that the form of man is not equivalent to God. However even equlity has its limits to the Spirit since the presence of God in Jesus is not equal to the presence of God throughout the universe. In essence what I am trying to say is that the Spirit of God has the equality but the reference to the Spirit of God that is in Christ does not. This is another instance of confusing attributes of the Spirit of God with attributes of the incarnation.

 

[lockyfan]

God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth. John 4:24
Therefor that is Jehovah's state or physical being, that of a spirit being

But the Spirit of God, is the Holy Spirit and it is what he uses to make his Will happen.

 

[Muffled]

God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth. John 4:24
Therefor that is Jehovah's state or physical being, that of a spirit being

But the Spirit of God, is the Holy Spirit and it is what he uses to make his Will happen.

God isn't just any spirit but He is the good and omnipresent spirit. It defines His identity. Jesus has the same identity even though He is not equal in other ways.

 

[yrgo]

Greetings, trinitarians!
　
　
Dirty Penguin (#265):

If he was in heaven with his own separate will and had to be given power then there is no way he can be God. In order to be given there must be a giver. In order to be taught there must be a teacher. In order to be sent there must be a sender. For him to have been a servant there must be a master. These are things he said...not me. These are right there in your scripture.
　
　
Dirty Penguin (#178):

I have said this plenty of times in every thread like this and that logic has gone unchallenged.
　
　
Dirty Penguin (#216):

Most christians I have come across have passed these types of statements off.
　
　
yrgo:

Trinitarians, please be advised that you can safely concede Dirty Penguin's point without in any way appearing to agree with his take on John 17.14 (#28, #181).


:yes:

　
　
EXCERPT:


John 7.16-17, modified NIV:

" 16 Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out WHETHER MY TEACHING COMES FROM GOD OR WHETHER I SPEAK ON MY OWN.'"
　
　
1.

In John 7.16-17, "the Word . . . made flesh" (a) clearly makes a distinction between himself and "the only true God" of John 17.3.

(a) Jn 1.14, KJV
　
　
2.

However, trinitarians believe that he whose "name is the Word OF GOD" (a) is, in fact, "the only true God" in his own right and has never actually ceased to be so, although he did accept a temporary suspension of his Divine Prerogatives in order to be fully human for a time and as dependent on God ("Father" and "Holy Spirit") for "life and breath and everything else" (b) as all other flesh.

(a) Rev 19.13, modified NIV
(b) Ac 17.25, NIV
　
　
3.

Non-trinitarians disagree and say that the reason for Jesus' making a distinction between himself and God in John 7 is that the incarnate Christ was no more the "one God, the Father" (a) than the preincarnate Christ had been.

(a) 1Co 8.6; cf. Eph 4.6; Col 1.3


4.

If, BEFORE THE INCARNATION, "the Word" of John 1.1 was as much "the only true God" as the Father, then trinitarians are right.

If, BEFORE THE INCARNATION, "the Word" of John 1.1 was never more than a visible "REFLECTION of [the invisible] God's glory" (a) and an "exact REPRESENTATION of his being" (b), then trinitarians are definitely mistaken.

(a) Heb 1.3, modified NRSV
(b) Heb 1.3, modified NIV
　
　
5. QUESTION:

Was "the Word" of John 1.1 "the only true God" BEFORE THE INCARNATION?
　
　
6. ANSWER:

The "Word" of John 1.1 was NOT "the only true God" before the Incarnation, and a clue as to the reason is found in John 5.19-20.
　
　
7. John 5.19-20, modified NIV:

" 19 Jesus gave them this answer: 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he SEES his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and SHOWS him all He does. Yes, to your amazement He will SHOW him even greater things than these.'"
　
　
8.

According to Hebrews 7.7, " . . . the lesser person is blessed by the greater."
　
　
9.

According to John 5.19-20, the lesser Being is SHOWN things by the Greater.

This is because a greater being is not SHOWN a thing by a lesser being; rather, a greater being SHOWS something, and a lesser being SEES it.


10.

Of course, the fact that in John 5.19-20 the Son, "AS A MAN" (a), is the one who is SHOWN things and is SEEING them is not at all surprising and does nothing to weaken trinitarians' argument that Jesus had been fully God prior to his Incarnation.

(a) Php 2.8


11.

However, should the Son be found "seeing" rather than "showing" PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION, his supposed "equality with God" (a) would come to be very much in doubt.

(a) Php 2.6
　
　
12. QUESTIONS:

PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION, do we find "the Word" of John 1.1 SHOWING or SEEING, INSTRUCTING or HEARING, SENDING or BEING SENT, GIVING and ENDOWING or RECEIVING, SETTING APART or BEING SET APART, COMMANDING or BEING COMMANDED?


13. ANSWERS:


John the Baptist (Jn 3.31-32,34-35, modified NIV):

" 31 ' . . . The one who comes from heaven is above all (a). 32 He testifies to what he has SEEN and HEARD [in heaven] . . . 34 For the one whom God has SENT speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 THE FATHER LOVES THE SON AND HAS PLACED EVERYTHING [on earth (b)] IN HIS HANDS[, especially "the church" (c)].'"

(a) cf. Jn 13.13; Mt 23.8,10 (Jn 17.2; Ac 10.36; Ro 10.12)
(b) Ps 2.8; Rev 1.5 ("ruler of the kings of the earth"); cf. Eph 1.21
(c) Eph 1.22
　
　
IN OTHER WORDS:
　
　
" 36 'what about the one whom THE FATHER [FIRST] SET APART as his very own AND [THEN] SENT into the world? . . . "God's Son"?'"

(Jesus, Jn 10.36, modified NIV)
　
　
" 42 . . . 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own . . . [GOD] SENT ME.'"

(Jn 8.42, modified NIV)
　
　
" 11 'I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and . . . testify to what we have SEEN . . . '"

(Jesus, Jn 3.11, modified NIV)
　
　
" 38 'I am telling you what I have SEEN IN THE FATHER'S PRESENCE . . . '"

(Jesus, Jn 8.38, modified NIV; cf. Jn 17.5)
　
　
" 49 'For I did not speak of my own accord, but THE FATHER who SENT me COMMANDED me what to say and how to say it. 50 . . . So whatever I say is just what THE FATHER HAS TOLD me to say.'"

(Jesus, Jn 12.49-50, modified NIV)
　
　
" 40 'As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I HEARD FROM GOD. . . . '"

(Jesus, Jn 8.40, modified NIV)
　
　
" 18 [HOWEVER,] 'No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. THIS COMMAND I RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER.'"

(Jesus, Jn 10.18, modified NIV)
　
　
" 4 [Father,] 'I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work YOU GAVE ME TO DO.'"

(Jesus, Jn 17.4, modified NIV)
　
　
　
14. THE POINT:

An "only true God" is not SHOWN something or ENDOWED with anything, is neither INSTRUCTED nor COMMANDED, is never SET APART or SENT by someone else.


15.

Trinitarians believe that PRIOR TO THE INCARNATION of "the Word" of John 1.1, he was as much "the only true God" as the Father.
　
　
16.

NOT SO.
　

 

[Tiapan]

Jesus a human = God a non human

Don't sound right to me by definition.

Cheers

 

[Pure-Truth]

Everything about Jesus is wrong as is ALL of the Bible wrong!

First lets consider, the wild statement of an all knowing entity..

Now I ask is this entity prone to not know some of the past, present or even the future? and now the delema rears its head, because it is obvious the entity does not know all.. a complete violation to what is suppose to be working to a perfect plan, a plan so grand, it will come as it has been foretold by this just entity, as it knows all!

But if we consider the mass murder, wiping, smiting and flooding of an entire planet, simply because claimed entity was displeased, I have to insist, it sure doesn't sound like such actions would come from an all knowing entity that should have known what is to transpire, MORE DILEMMA'S! is this entity with an all knowing capacity or not?

You cant have it both ways and no matter which way you are swayed, the end reasoning points out the bible is pure fiction with perhaps some facts thrown in to ensure some credibility may be gained..

Lets now move on to where this entity decides to diddle some girl at the onset of becoming a women less any later some man may opportune to seed this poor girl before its attempts.. And again I wonder why doesn't this entity know everything about the girl that is suppose to spawn his genetics?

Which has me wondering - If the entities genetics are able to enmesh with Mary's genetics then what does that say! This entity sounds more and more like some mere man..

So why was this girl diddled? so that what is spawned saves sinners who acknowledges the entities massive stuff up!

I wonder was this half breed - Half Aboriginal, African, Arabic or Asian?
Gotta wonder if evolution is not on the money, then what race fits this entities and its spawned mutant? And there again is another delema, damned if you reject evolution and damned if you don't!

BTW If I were an all knowing entity, that fallen Angel would never have been created, unless I were some really really sick entity that takes delight in unjust acts to ones own so called perfect creations!

having said all that, I concede most of you, simply wont be able to comprehend the implications I have brought forward, so I expect no response from you, but to those who know the bible is fiction and are using it in the fleecing of those infected by its deception, nothing can be said that has already been said, so don't waste your precious time discrediting me, as I don't personally hold any credibility, but what I do have is the capacity to point out contradictions so what I refer to speaks loud and clear to those who are highly evolved and as a consequence are able to see my points..

2~Duh~Loo!,

Pete..

 

[Muffled]

Jesus a human = God a non human

Don't sound right to me by definition.

Cheers

This is an argument that Muslims like to make. I disagree with your definitions.

Jesus is a human. This is only partially true in that Jesus had a human body but the spirit within is the Spirit of God. Humans that are not divine also have a human body but they aso have a human spirit.

God is not a human. This is true as God is a spirit. However the human Jesus is a subset of God because He is God in a body. You might as well say that humans that have a human spirit are not really human either since their natural state is spiritual.
However we do not define humans as not having a body but as having a body despit what their natural state is, so it is perfectly legitimate to refer to God as human as well.

 

[lockyfan]

but cant fully set us free until the destruction of satan.

 

[Pure-Truth]

This is an argument that Muslims like to make. I disagree with your definitions.

Jesus is a human. This is only partially true in that Jesus had a human body but the spirit within is the Spirit of God. Humans that are not divine also have a human body but they also have a human spirit.

God is not a human. This is true as God is a spirit. However the human Jesus is a subset of God because He is God in a body. You might as well say that humans that have a human spirit are not really human either since their natural state is spiritual.
However we do not define humans as not having a body but as having a body despite what their natural state is, so it is perfectly legitimate to refer to God as human as well.

Define spirit and as to how it is possible please?