What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Autodidact]

I find that there is little to be "gay" about with concerns to homosexual relationships. There is a desire to have sex. But with hererosexual marriage there can also be a desire to procreate. Homosexual relationships cannot produce offspring...

So that's what I've been doing wrong!! O.K. that was a joke.

Let me introduce you to this really neat thing. It's called love. It will change your life.

 

[madhatter85]

The Bible is about CHRIST. The book of Mormon is about an obscure people of questionable identity without historic purpose.

You are so cute when you're ignorant
Number of times the word Jesus appears in the Book of Mormon: 64
Number of times the word Christ appears in the Book of Mormon: 99
Number of times the word Jesus appears in the Bible: 207
Number of times the word Christ appears in the Bible: 164
Number of Words in the Book of Mormon: ~30,000
Number of Words in the Bible: ~780,000

The Bible says the words Jesus or Christ one time for every ~2102 words
The Book of Mormon says the words Jesus or Christ one time for every ~184 words

This does not even include any other references to the Savior either.
Which Book is MORE about Jesus Christ now?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

So, once again, you believe two things that contradict each other. On the one hand, you believe that knowledge is impossible, that everything is subjective, and we all construct our own equally valid reality.

No, this isn't what I believe. I'm sorry if I misled you. Conflicting and equally valid realities do not exist. Granted, they are real in that they are each person's interpretation of reality, but there is only one reality.

 

[Autodidact]

No, this isn't what I believe. I'm sorry if I misled you. Conflicting and equally valid realities do not exist. Granted, they are real in that they are each person's interpretation of reality, but there is only one reality.

And it's possible to learn about it through our senses, and to have enough certainty about it for everyday purposes, right?

 

[madhatter85]

No, this isn't what I believe. I'm sorry if I misled you. Conflicting and equally valid realities do not exist. Granted, they are real in that they are each person's interpretation of reality, but there is only one reality.

Exactly. Absolute truth is absolute truth. It doesn't mean how you perceive it will be right.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

But they contradict each other. There is a difference between Islam and LDS. The muslim believes that Allah is the only prophet. The mormon believes there have been many prophets. Both of these statements cannot be true. Why do you buy yours, not his? In short, why aren't you Muslim? Obviously, because your parents didn't raise you to be one, otherwise you would be. You would believe that Allah is the only prophet, and Joseph Smith delusional or a con-man. The only reason you don't believe this is because of who raised you.

If something is true, it's true in Saudi Arabia and Salt Lake City, and it's true whether your parent's names were Omar and Fatima, or Bob and Flora. Truth doesn't change because of who got to you first.

Actually, the Muslims believe there have been many prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. They believe that there is only one God. The Mormons also believe there have been many prophets called to many different peoples. I for one believe that Muhammad was likely a true prophet.
Because you are an atheist, you can view religion in a very objective light. Certainly you must see that religion can be used as a tool. Why do religions change and fracture over time? Is this proof that God is changing and fracturing? No. Most religions are a mixture of inspiration, and man-made beliefs (of course you would say they were all man-made). There are many ways that error is introduced to religion. For example, some people don't like what it teaches, so they change it. Some people deliberately use religion to control people and must therefor adapt and change it to suit their ends. Religion is also influenced by the social and moral swings of the times. There are all kinds of things introducing change, error, and man made beliefs into religions. That is why there are hundreds and thousands of different choices when it comes to faith. Now take someone and drop them into any one of these. If he/she is a seeker of truth, they will come to recognize the true aspects of their religion. The danger is that someone will think that because what they have is true, that must be all there is. We will never stop learning. If you stop learning/gaining truth, then it's your loss (speaking in general). Anyone who wants to come to know God must never stop learning. This includes people of my own faith, of other faiths, and of no faith. I may know that God exists, but that is a far cry from actually meeting him. The problem, and why there is so much ignorance, is that people gain some truth, and then stop seeking. They become complacent and self assured, then fall into error. Joseph Smith said

I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further; which I cannot subscribe to.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

And it's possible to learn about it through our senses, and to have enough certainty about it for everyday purposes, right?

Generally speaking I'd say yes.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually, the Muslims believe there have been many prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. They believe that there is only one God. The Mormons also believe there have been many prophets called to many different peoples. I for one believe that Muhammad was likely a true prophet.
Because you are an atheist, you can view religion in a very objective light. Certainly you must see that religion can be used as a tool. Why do religions change and fracture over time? Is this proof that God is changing and fracturing? No. Most religions are a mixture of inspiration, and man-made beliefs (of course you would say they were all man-made). There are many ways that error is introduced to religion. For example, some people don't like what it teaches, so they change it. Some people deliberately use religion to control people and must therefor adapt and change it to suit their ends. Religion is also influenced by the social and moral swings of the times. There are all kinds of things introducing change, error, and man made beliefs into religions. That is why there are hundreds and thousands of different choices when it comes to faith. Now take someone and drop them into any one of these. If he/she is a seeker of truth, they will come to recognize the true aspects of their religion. The danger is that someone will think that because what they have is true, that must be all there is. We will never stop learning. If you stop learning/gaining truth, then it's your loss (speaking in general). Anyone who wants to come to know God must never stop learning. This includes people of my own faith, of other faiths, and of no faith. I may know that God exists, but that is a far cry from actually meeting him. The problem, and why there is so much ignorance, is that people gain some truth, and then stop seeking. They become complacent and self assured, then fall into error. Joseph Smith said

So you're trying to say that you are a Muslim as well as a Mormon, and you think these two beliefs are mutually consistent? For example, the belief that Jesus is and is not God are both true?

 

[Autodidact]

Generally speaking I'd say yes.

so can we stop talking about "truly knowing" and that sort of thing, and just look for the same kind of certainty that we use in our ordinary lives?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

so can we stop talking about "truly knowing" and that sort of thing, and just look for the same kind of certainty that we use in our ordinary lives?

Sure. You can if you want. But in doing so you will closing a big door. And the tools you are left with can never answer the most fundamental and important questions of existence. (And you will never be able to understand us insane people and why we are so sure of something that appears so illogical to you.) You would be condemning yourself to life in a cave, however nice it may seem.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

So you're trying to say that you are a Muslim as well as a Mormon, and you think these two beliefs are mutually consistent? For example, the belief that Jesus is and is not God are both true?

The Muslims believe in Allah. Their belief in him is consistent with my belief in God. They do not believe in Jesus Christ as the literal Son of God. In that case their belief is in error. Because they know God lives, within the context of Islam, they make the assumption that everything else Islam teaches is true. Many Christians receive a knowledge that God lives, so they often assume that this means their specific religion is 100% right. Many people don't. They learn to separate doctrine of God from doctrine of men. It can be very hard to let go of tradition. Some people hold so tightly to their view of how they think things should be, that they never open their minds to how things are. Obtaining truth requires an open mind.

 

[Autodidact]

Sure. You can if you want. But in doing so you will closing a big door.

The door to likely error is one I prefer to close.

And the tools you are left with can never answer the most fundamental and important questions of existence. (And you will never be able to understand us insane people and why we are so sure of something that appears so illogical to you.) You would be condemning yourself to life in a cave, however nice it may seem.

That's O.K., I don't try to use them for that. I use them to figure out what does and does not exist, stuff like that.

If I'm going to open my mind to those tools, then, to be fair, I have to accept Islam, Hinduism, Scientology, etc. etc. Otherwise I'm inconsistent and hypocritical.

btw, I used those tools too. I prayed in all sincerity and faith for God to reveal Himself. And I got nothing. So I've covered it both ways.

Actually, I think coming closer to the truth is not the same as living in the cave.

So what you're saying is that you lower your standard, when trying to find out religious matters. You use a higher standard of evidence for saving your car than your soul.

 

[Autodidact]

The Muslims believe in Allah. Their belief in him is consistent with my belief in God. They do not believe in Jesus Christ as the literal Son of God. In that case their belief is in error. Because they know God lives, within the context of Islam, they make the assumption that everything else Islam teaches is true. Many Christians receive a knowledge that God lives, so they often assume that this means their specific religion is 100% right. Many people don't. They learn to separate doctrine of God from doctrine of men. It can be very hard to let go of tradition. Some people hold so tightly to their view of how they think things should be, that they never open their minds to how things are. Obtaining truth requires an open mind.

O.K., so you agree that you disagree with the Muslim. You think he's in error, and he thinks you're in error. And you both got to your beliefs the exact same way, via the same kind of indoctrination, the same sort of personal revelation, would stake his life on it, knows for a fact because the "holy ghost" has given him that knowledge, everything the same. So how do you know he's in error, and you're right? Is it because you're so much better at it than the entire Muslim world?

Is your mind open? Are you ready to base your beliefs on the evidence? Or have you just decided to incorporate the beliefs you were indoctrinated in as a child as your own?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

If I'm going to open my mind to those tools, then, to be fair, I have to accept Islam, Hinduism, Scientology, etc. etc. Otherwise I'm inconsistent and hypocritical.

I'm not asking you to take everything these people say as gospel truth. That would be unreasonable and impossible as you can see. What I am saying is that what they say should strike you as odd, maybe make you a little curious. How can there be so many competing claims and all seem to be standing on equally valid logical (or illogical) ground. So by opening the door, you are opening the possibility that there is something out there. But that doesn't mean that something is out there. And you won't know what's out there until you "see" for yourself. It takes careful study and analysis of an ocean of beliefs. As you study what everyone "out there" believes, you can pick up a piece here and a piece there. As you continue to examine various ideas and religions the contents of your belief basket (not knowledge basket) changes and grows. Perhaps this is not even strong enough to be called belief. Maybe it is just what you think would make sense if there was a God. In this search for knowledge, you must act on everything you "learn". You can't think "Oh well that teaching sounds nice and I agree with it, but I'm not going to actually live it." As you begin to apply the things you are learning into your life you will begin to feel something. This is a seed of faith that you planted in your heart when you first opened the door. As you continue to seek greater knowledge and understanding (and to apply it), the seed will continue to grow. You have to continue to take care of this little sprout of faith. But you (I am using the word in a general sense) can't neglect it. If you want to learn more you have to continue to live what you have. If you don't live by what you receive, how can you expect to get more? If this process is allowed to continue, it will, along the way, include sure knowledge that God exists (as well as a good many other things). The problem is that this path (sometimes known as the straight and narrow) often leads people to change that they don't want to make. We will only be able to receive as much light and truth as we are able to abide. As soon as we stop desiring to learn, we stop learning. As soon as we think we have enough, we stop learning. And if we quit living what we believe, we will actually begin to lose it. Jesus taught:

For whosoever receiveth, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance; but whosoever continueth not to receive, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

This applies to everyone who seeks to understand the mysteries of life regardless what amount of light they currently have.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Regarding my last post. You will probably wonder why, if this is true, are there so many different and varying beliefs out there. The more light and knowledge people receive, the more their beliefs will overlap. This is the thing that I have found to be absolutely incredible. I have spoken to people that are of such different theological starting points, and found that by seeking light through study and application, we have arrived at the same exact truths. The people who bicker and fight over doctrine are not really living the heart of their religion. They may know all the doctrinal arguments but to truly understand the Gospel, you have to live it.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not asking you to take everything these people say as gospel truth. That would be unreasonable and impossible as you can see. What I am saying is that what they say should strike you as odd, maybe make you a little curious. How can there be so many competing claims and all seem to be standing on equally valid logical (or illogical) ground. So by opening the door, you are opening the possibility that there is something out there.

What makes you think I'm not open to this possibility? I'm completely open to it. In fact, I used to be a theist. But the evidence right now indicates there isn't actually a God. Now, are you equally open to the possiblity that there isn't?

What makes you think I'm not curious? I spend huge amounts of my life learning about religion, including the fascinating question of why so many people believe in it.

Did you notice how you assumed that, because I disagree with you, it's because I'm close-minded? That would be convenient for you. What if the opposite is true? I disagree with you because I'm open-minded?

But that doesn't mean that something is out there. And you won't know what's out there until you "see" for yourself.

I see. So you're an agnostic?

It takes careful study and analysis of an ocean of beliefs. As you study what everyone "out there" believes, you can pick up a piece here and a piece there. As you continue to examine various ideas and religions the contents of your belief basket (not knowledge basket) changes and grows. Perhaps this is not even strong enough to be called belief.

Maybe you're so arrogant that you assume you can tell me how to go about my discovery process, having gone ahead of me? But maybe I did all that and more, and actually have spent much more time than you on the subject, know more than you, and don't really need advice from you?

Maybe it is just what you think would make sense if there was a God.

Or maybe it makes more sense that there isn't.

In this search for knowledge, you must act on everything you "learn".

Actually, you must not tell me what I must do. Shees, religionists are so freaking arrogant.

You can't think "Oh well that teaching sounds nice and I agree with it, but I'm not going to actually live it."

Or you might think, "What a crock of first-class bologna!! An angel showed him where to dig for the plates, but then, what a coincidence, took them back! And, lo and behold, everything in the book that we can verify, without exception, turns out to be wrong. No DNA, no metal tools, no horses, no chariots, no Egyptian, no nothing."

As you begin to apply the things you are learning into your life you will begin to feel something.

Or, on the contrary, you will not.
snip more annoying arrogant preaching on what I need to do and how I need to conduct myself.

Tell you what, before you start preaching at me how to discover and grow, let's get you a consistent belief system.

So, as I was saying, why aren't you Muslim?

Obviously, because you weren't raised by Muslims. So, is truth dependent on where you were raised?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Is your mind open? Are you ready to base your beliefs on the evidence? Or have you just decided to incorporate the beliefs you were indoctrinated in as a child as your own?

Yes, I have tried very hard to incorporated the beliefs that were indoctrinated into me as a child because I have tried them out and they're true. But I can't stop there. I have to continue the process of progression. As soon as someone stops that process, they are damned (i.e. cut off from forward progress).

 

[Autodidact]

Regarding my last post. You will probably wonder why, if this is true, are there so many different and varying beliefs out there. The more light and knowledge people receive, the more their beliefs will overlap. This is the thing that I have found to be absolutely incredible. I have spoken to people that are of such different theological starting points, and found that by seeking light through study and application, we have arrived at the same exact truths. The people who bicker and fight over doctrine are not really living the heart of their religion. They may know all the doctrinal arguments but to truly understand the Gospel, you have to live it.

What I really wonder is why you assume that I'm ignorant and have not spent years of my life thinking about this issue.

Oh, so you and the Muslims have come to an agreement about whether Jesus is God? News to me.

That seems like kind of an important truth to someone who calls himself Christian.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, I have tried very hard to incorporated the beliefs that were indoctrinated into me as a child because I have tried them out and they're true. But I can't stop there. I have to continue the process of progression. As soon as someone stops that process, they are damned (i.e. cut off from forward progress).

You actually go out of your way to follow the brainwashing you received as a child?!? And you want to give me lessons in growth and discovery?

What I did was to go out of my way to set aside my brainwashing and figure out the truth. Which one do you think is more likely to lead to the truth, the one that depends on where you happened to be born, or the one that steps back and is open to any outcome?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, I have tried very hard to incorporated the beliefs that were indoctrinated into me as a child because I have tried them out and they're true. But I can't stop there. I have to continue the process of progression. As soon as someone stops that process, they are damned (i.e. cut off from forward progress).

You tried out the belief that God speaks through your prophet? How did you go about testing that exactly?