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Abrahamic only: Why do you feel free will is denied by some people?

Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Title says it all. Was wondering what other Christians, Jews, Islamics , LDS, etc thought about some of the free will post in religious debates. It is arguable one of the most debated topics here on the forums. So why do you feel that anti-free will people rage so defiantly against free will?
 
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emiliano

Well-Known Member
Enoch07 said:
Title says it all. Was wondering what other Christians, Jews, Islamics , LDS, etc thought about some of the free will post in religious debates. It is arguable one of the most debated topics here on the forums. So why do you feel that anti-free will people rage so defiantly against free will?
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It is a human condition we do not want to accept the responsibilities of our errors. We want to excuse ourselves by blaming something or somebody else for our bad choices. If free will does not exist we are off the hook. The devil make me do it and I was left on my own to face this formidable foe, how could I choose any other choice but his sort of thing.
 
Phasmid

Phasmid

Mr Invisible
I see no evidence for there being no free will... while determinism makes sense, it has no proof. It's no different than saying, "God exists". It's merely a belief.
 
Christian Pilgrim

Christian Pilgrim

Active Member
Enoch07 said:
Title says it all. Was wondering what other Christians, Jews, Islamics , LDS, etc thought about some of the free will post in religious debates. It is arguable one of the most debated topics here on the forums. So why do you feel that anti-free will people rage so defiantly against free will?
Click to expand...

As a Christian, I see the issue of apparent free will claimed by other Christians reveal that they do not understand a basic attribute of God of whom they worship. Christians are to glorify God in all they think, believe, and do in life. God is either sovereign or man is sovereign. The reason many Christians embrace the apparent free will of man is biblical ignorance. Divine providence is not a common topic in the pews, but without it, how can a Christian have faith in God to accomplish all that He promises in His Word. We know that faith (trust in His Word) pleases God; how can we have the kind of faith that pleases Him if we do not believe God is completely sovereign, and He does whatever pleases Him. We are to walk by faith and not by sight. Therefore, having the proper understanding of man's responsibility and God's complete sovereignty is a very important truth to grasp as a Christian.
 
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misanthropic_clown

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
I think there are many valid arguments for denying free will, and I personally do not accept that our will is always as free as we think. We are all the product of a unique set of motivations, and responsibility for our actions is obfuscated with a huge array of confounding factors which make it difficult to determine what level of control people have over, and thus how much responsibility people should take for, the things they do

I believe this concept is very much in line with the doctrine "judge not, lest ye be judged". It would be impossible for us to calculate all the factors that would have to be considered to mitigate or aggravate an individuals wrongdoing, so by and large we shouldn't. We leave it to God to calculate these things.
 
Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
emiliano said:
It is a human condition we do not want to accept the responsibilities of our errors. We want to excuse ourselves by blaming something or somebody else for our bad choices. If free will does not exist we are off the hook. The devil make me do it and I was left on my own to face this formidable foe, how could I choose any other choice but his sort of thing.
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Emiliano hit the nail on the head. Do deny free will is to absolve yourself on any responsibility for your actions here on earth. That is what sin is about. Is being held accountable for your actions here on earth. Simply put they are trying to build their own Tower of Babel.

To deny free will is to deny Gods law. I am living proof of free will, because once I was a "bad" person, but I changed and live a whole new life now. Granted I still may not pass judgment from God, but I still love Him regardless so therefore everyday I try to follow His word close as I can.

Faith is knowing God loves you and that you trust God. My faith is strong but I also know He will condemn me to hell if I slip up too much. So using believing in faith + no free will = damnation for sure.
 
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emiliano

Well-Known Member
misanthropic_clown said:
I think there are many valid arguments for denying free will, and I personally do not accept that our will is always as free as we think. We are all the product of a unique set of motivations, and responsibility for our actions is obfuscated with a huge array of confounding factors which make it difficult to determine what level of control people have over, and thus how much responsibility people should take for, the things they do

I believe this concept is very much in line with the doctrine "judge not, lest ye be judged". It would be impossible for us to calculate all the factors that would have to be considered to mitigate or aggravate an individuals wrongdoing, so by and large we shouldn't. We leave it to God to calculate these things.
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The reason for humans to have this free will is for us to choose do what is good, to judge A, B or C actions to judge the goodness of each of them and freely choose good, God is good, thus we should choose Him and if you choose to do His will we will be saved, we are convicted of our sins and the need for the Savior by looking into God’s law the Moral Law as we look into a mirror, we see ourselves and we are changed and saved. (Jam 1:25-26). Christians are to obey God that is what the Apostle did and suffered for:
Act 5:29
But Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. ​

That is a choice and we have the capability to choose.
Jer 35:13
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, "Will you not receive instruction to obey My words?" says the LORD. ​

And they did not obey:
Jer 35:15
I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them], saying, 'Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given you and your fathers.' But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me. ​

If they choose to disobey and did not hear the prophet and did as it seemed best to them, they had a will of their own and chose to obey it rather than obey God.
Jer 35:17
"Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Behold, I will bring on Judah and on all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the doom that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them but they have not heard, and I have called to them but they have not answered.' " ​
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I believe that there are many scriptures which support the theology of free will, and at least as many that support the concept of predestination.

Our mistake would be to ignore the ones that DON'T agree with one position or the other. When we look at both these apparently opposing theologies, we MUST look at ALL scripture related to both of them.

Therefore, I think that God uses a mix of what we call "free will" and "predestination" to draw us or allow us to choose Him.

Just because we don't UNDERSTAND how those two ideas work together, doesn't mean they DON'T work together. God's wisdom, holiness, and omnipotence are truly impossible for our minds to grasp totally.

We should never allow our limited abilities to create a mindset that tries to stuff God's limitless attributes into a box of our own making,
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I believe that free will is a concept supported by scripture, as is predestination.

Therefore I believe that I both practice free will, and am also chosen by God.

It really doesn't matter whether or not I KNOW when or if I am using free will. That's right up there with debating about how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

The point is always, "What's my application?" And my application is that when confronted with a decision, I must make my decisions based on Christian principles. In other words, I should obey God.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Jayhawker Soule said:
But what is free about free will if it is in fact episodic and concealed?
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We don't know whether it is episodic or concealed. We can't grasp the totality of God's plan for the universe. We're just trying to put God's motives in a box - and that's laughable.

God's will will NOT be limited by our human mindset.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
What I am saying is that each day we are confronted with moral choices, and it's our duty to obey, whether we understand how or why.

This is the very meaning of faith - to accept without demanding that we understand God's infinite wisdom.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Kathryn said:
What I am saying is that each day we are confronted with moral choices, and it's our duty to obey, whether we understand how or why.
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That's nice but not particularly relevant to the topic. My question is: if you do not obey, how do you (or anyone else) know that you disobeyed of your own free will?
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
For instance, say that I got pregnant (I am 47). I have a choice - a dilemma if you will. I don't WANT another child, for one thing. It's a health risk as well. I can choose to maintain the pregnancy, or I can choose to abort the pregnancy.

In this case, I have to put MY will aside and obey what I believe is God's will. I should have faith that when I obey, God's will will be accomplished through my obedience. I have to submit my will to God's will and pray for wisdom, strength, and courage.

Now - did I just obey, or did God predestine this child, this life, regardless of how long or short it is? Did God know, before I was born, whether or not I would keep this pregnancy?

See what I mean - this is an example of the mix of free will and predestination.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Jaywalker - it is definitely relevant to this topic. My point is - who are we to demand to KNOW? It is not our inherent RIGHT to "know" - it is our responsibility to obey whether we "know" or not.
 
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