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Book of Mormon

FFH

Veteran Member
I gave my descripton of the soverign GOD

what would you define as a god you become?
I am a god, joint heir with Christ, not necessarily over anyone else, but a god, in the sense that I am perfected, because of Christ's sacrifice, if I repent and do His (Christ's) will.

Christ becomes our Father, and we His children, when we follow Him and do His will.

I am a god, and a child of God, joint heir with Christ, when I repent and do His will.

"The Kingdom of God has come unto you" ~Jesus Christ~

We can become gods, in this life, by perfecting ourselves, through Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, and in this manner we invite the kingdom of God to be in our midst, when we do the will of Christ, who is GOD.

"This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God"

Alma 34: 32
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
What would you define as a god you become?
I'll let the scriptures define our doctrine. There are quite a number of verses that speak of our divine potential. Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” If the "Father of [our] spirits" is divine and we are literally "his offspring", (both of which statements are found in the Bible), is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?
 
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rabanes

Member
Greetings,

This is Richard Abanes, the author mentioned in the OP. All of the beliefs listed are held by Mormons. As I read through the thread, however, I saw classic Mormon responses that I thought I'd better address. When dealing with Mormons, there are a few things that everyone needs to know:
1. Mormons are very hesitant to admit to doctrines/beliefs that are too "deep" for non-Mormons (in other words, doctrines/beliefs that might sound offensive or distasteful to non-Mormons). So they will often be less than upfront about what the church really teaches. In other words, they will say something is untrue, when indeed it is true. They justify such behavior often using word games to side-step the truth. For example, if you ask a Mormon whether they believe in many gods. They will say, "No. We/I only believe in one God." But then when pushed against the wall, using quotes from their own leaders, the truth comes out that they DO believe in many gods (i.e., acknowledge the existence of other gods), but the key is that they worship/serve only one of these gods.

2. If a Mormon doctrine/belief is not explained using EXACTLY the right words, they will deny that doctrine/belief -- even though the concept expressed might be completely accurate. This is another way they are able to deny certain doctrines/beliefs that would seem offensive to non-Mormons. if you do not word it perfectly, according to their writings, they can deny it, although you are correctly explaining it using alternate word choices.

3. Some Mormons actually do not know what was taught by their former prophets and apostles -- i.e., various doctrines/beliefs that were accepted, but now are no longer talked about very much (but never retracted). Mormonism is a fluid/evolving religion. In other words, a doctrine believed 50 years ago might not be believed today -- and exactly where/how that doctrine stopped being believed by some Mormons is a very blurry issue. There is also the possibility that some Mormons do not know certain beliefs -- for instance, that God has multiple wives per the teachings of their former leaders.

4. Statements made by past Mormon apostles/prophets that are believed by many (if not most) Mormons, but not officially noted by the Church (or formally released as an official Church doctrine) can be denied as a doctrine/belief -- even though some, many, or even most Mormons might truly hold that doctrine/belief. It can be denied as not official, and therefore not a Mormon doctrine/belief -- even by the person who actually believes it!

5. Not every doctrine/belief held by Mormons and taught by church leaders (officially/unofficially) is found in the Book of Mormon, which was written very early in Mormonism. It was created by Joseph Smith before his beliefs strayed completely from Christianity. In fact, the BOM is actually very close in teachings to the Bible, because much of it is plagiarized from the Bible (huge chunks of the King James Version appear in it). Think of the BOM as a fictional novel about Native American Indians that has Christian themes sprinkled throughout it, coupled with large segments of the King James Bible that re worked into the storyline. Most of the truly heretical/unbiblical doctrines of Mormonism comes from the Doctrine & Covenants (revelations Smith allegedly received from God) and/or The Pearl of Great price (another book of holy writ comprised of various texts).
I hope this has helped. I have two books on Mormonism that deal in-depth with the history of Mormonism (One Nation Under Gods) and the doctrines of Mormonism from an evangelical Christian perspective (Inside Today's Mormonism, also titled Becoming Gods). See amazon for more information.

More information about both of these books including reviews, a synopsis, and excerpts can be found at abanesdotcom (unable to yet post links).

Thank you,

Richard Abanes
 

rabanes

Member
I'll let the scriptures define our doctrine. There are quite a number of verses that speak of our divine potential. Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations. Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” If the "Father of [our] spirits" is divine and we are literally "his offspring", (both of which statements are found in the Bible), is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

These scriptures do not imply/suggest that we can become a "God" just like the God of heaven -- i.e., whom you call Heavenly Father. These passages deal with our sharing in those qualities of God that are communicable to use through our union with him as children by adoption, whereby we can cry out, "Abba Father," since we are now led by his spirit (see Romans 8:14-16). We become more like Christ, more like God in how we think, feel, act, respond, and see the world.

But as a Latter-day Saint, you do not SIMPLY mean "godlike." That is an example of exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. Moreover, you gloss over what you mean when you say we are literally his offspring, and also don't explain what you mean by spark of divinity. For the benefit of readers, I will detail what you failed to share:
1. As for becoming "godlike," your actual hope is to be a god to the exact same level of godhood to which our heavenly Father has progressed. You will reach full godhood like all other gods before you (Mormon quotes available upon request). To merely say "godlike" is to soften the actual belief and make it seem not that far removed from what other Christians hope -- i.e., to be more like God and in our lives/actions more reflect his godly traits such as love, peace, kindness, etc., etc., etc. But that is not what you are talking about. You are talking about becoming a GOD.

2. Regarding that spark of divinity you mentioned in passing, Latter-day Saints believe far more about that so-called "spark." You, as a Mormon, actually believe that we are of the very same species as God, except have not yet advanced/progressed to full godhood as God has done. We are gods in embryo, so to speak (and that is from your own LDS writings).

3. When you say we are literally offspring of God, you are alluding to (but interestingly, not fully explaining) the Mormon belief that God (Heavenly Father) has a wife (Heavenly Mother) and we are literally their spirit children born to them in the heavenly realms before coming to this earth. Here we are supposed to continue our own eternal progression to godhood and become just like them -- i.e., gods and goddesses married for eternity and eternally procreating our own spirit children, who will in turn become gods and goddesses, and so on, and so on, and so on.
I hope this has helped readers unfamiliar with Mormonism and the way Mormonism is discussed by Mormons when speaking to non-Mormons.

peace,

R. Abanes
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
wow.... its amazing some of this stuff still gets around.

I can say in all my years as a Mormon I never heard of Kolob. I was LDS for twenty years.

I'm sure if you wanted to ask respectful question rather than sling tired old attacks people would be glad to talk.. ;)

wa:do
 

rabanes

Member
wow.... its amazing some of this stuff still gets around. I can say in all my years as a Mormon I never heard of Kolob. I was LDS for twenty years. I'm sure if you wanted to ask respectful question rather than sling tired old attacks people would be glad to talk.
Whenever I read a comment like this, I can't help but wonder why Mormons do it.

Do you actually think people won't respond and just let it go?

Or do you assume that someone will indeed respond and are deliberately just seeking to waste their time by forcing them to pull up quotes from your own Church leaders and re-type them?

Or is it something else?

If you were a Mormon for twenty years and never heard of Kolob, you must have been a Mormon living in a cave in the desert. I shall begin with a quote about Kolob from your very own book of Holy Writ (The Book of Abraham) that is part of your Standard Works, and then proceed from there to give you additional statements that put you and your claims in the "unreliable/untrustworthy" column:
And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest. And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord's time, according to the reckoning of Kolob
(Abraham 3:3-4, also quoted at your own Mormon Church website).

If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling an eye
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly
Do you think that you could ever?
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where God began to be
(Hymn #284, "If You Could Hie To Kolob," in the hymnal for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, online at official church website.)

“If I could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, and then continue onward with that same speed to fly, do you think that I could ever, through all eternity, find out the generations where Gods began to be?”
(Boyd K. Packer, acting president the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles — the second highest governing body of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, interview in PBS documentary, "The Mormons").

"Kolob means 'the first creation.' It is the name of the planet 'nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God'"
(LDS apostle, Brice McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).

“And the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me … ; I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.” (Abr. 3:1–3.) Is it not thrilling to know that the prophets knew long ago that the earth is but one of numerous planets created and controlled by God!
(LDS President Spencer W. Kimball, "Seek Learning, Even by Study and Also by Faith," Ensign, 1983).

[F]inally, I say unto you, let the same process be continued from day to day, until you arrive unto one of the days of Kolob (where day is 1000 of our years), the planet nearest unto the habitation of the Eternal Father (Brigham Young, 2nd prophet of the LDS Church, “Proclamation: For a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the Territory of Utah,” Ensign,Nov 1971, 40).

A major, well-known park in Utah -- "Kolob National Park" -- is named after the Mormon scriptural location.
Must I really go on and produce hundreds more? Why do you guys do this? It makes no sense and just makes you look bad in the eyes of people wanting to at least get from you the truth about what you believe.

I'm sure if you wanted to talk honestly and openly, rather than continue responding in such a dishonest fashion, people would be glad to talk

R. Abanes
author, One Nation Under Gods
author, Inside Today's Mormonism
 

Dream Angel

Well-Known Member
hello friend, you might want to do a little research on wiki (at least) before typing out such stuff. :yes:

peace and love,

RA

I know who Richard Abanes is, I only had to read the bits about him being a plagiarist and hating Harry Potter before I lost interest. I didn't even get to the bit about the LDS Church.

I am saying YOU are NOT Richard Abanes. The very fact that you direct me to wiki proves that!
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Hey don't give me that "your" stuff.... ;)
I'm just saying it wasn't anything that came up in my time there....

Why are all your comments in the form of an attack?

wa:do
 

rabanes

Member
I know who Richard Abanes is, I only had to read the bits about him being a plagiarist and hating Harry Potter before I lost interest. I didn't even get to the bit about the LDS Church.
1. If you did read about the so-called plagiarism, you would have also read:
"Noteworthy is the fact that no lawsuit was ever filed by Van Gorden against Abanes. Moreover, the publisher of Walter Martin’s The Kingdom of the Cults is the same publisher that has since released Abanes’s book on Eckhart Tolle and Oprah Winfrey titled A New Earth, An Old Deception: Awakening to the Dangers of Eckhart Tolle’s #1 Bestseller and also Religions of the Stars: What Hollywood Believes and How It Affects You.
And that is from my own website in the "ABOUT" link that I adapted from the wiki article. I referenced wiki because: a) I can't post links yet; and b) it is the lowest, bare-minimum reference to use. Hence my words, "(at least)."

2. I don't HATE Harry Potter. You didn't read that closely either. I would humbly ask that you do so as to avoid misunderstanding. I offer the following from an interview I did:
“My main point regarding Harry Potter books has remained consistent over the years: Like them. Love them. Hate them. Whatever. But know what they contain, not only from a spiritual perspective (pro & con), but also from an ethical/moral perspective (pro & con). Then, make an appropriate decision for yourselves and your children based on the possible effects of such content, especially on the malleable minds of young, impressionable kids.

The HP series should be approached like any other stack of books. They must be judged according to their content, neither overly condemned, nor overly accepted. Take them for what they are, not for what one may want them to be, either out of fear of them, or out of some misguided sense that because culture as a whole accepts them, we also must accept them wholeheartedly or look foolish. I see both of those extremes being displayed within the Christian community. And it’s unfortunate.

I’ve looked at the subject, or at least I’ve tried to look at it, very even-handedly. When it comes to HP, it’s really a fairly simple issue, at least to me. But the waters have become muddied by people on both sides of the fence who have their own agenda (especially within the Christian community, where everyone should be showing more restraint, love, and a willingness to look at the facts with an eye toward finding the truth).

You have the true Harry-haters on one hand who want to ban/burn the books because they contain occult imagery and mythological references. They are not recognizing the literary merit in the volumes, nor are they seeing some of the valuable lessons in the story or the positive character traits in several of the characters. On the other hand, you have the Harry-worshipers who refuse to hear anything negative about the volumes, and have gone so far as to twist and pervert the books into what they want them to be—i.e., a blatant Christian allegory (despite words to the contrary by J.K. Rowling, whom they claim to admire so much).

Again, I have to say, that I fail to see, even after all of these years, why people have gotten so emotionally caught up in the HP series. I suppose it is indeed somewhat like radical sports fans who will actually come to blows against another person who doesn’t like their team, or who says something bad about their favorite quarterback. I never really got that caught up in sports—maybe that’s my problem.”
Clearly, I am only seeking to bring balance to a very emotionally-charged issue. And there is certainly more than enough evidence to support my modest concerns. For example, recent MTV in-depth investigation of neopaganism among youth. I quote: "A surprising number of young witches MTV News spoke with also said that they became curious about their faith through misguiding pop-culture fare like Neve Campbell vehicle 'The Craft' and the 'Harry Potter' series (Guess a few conservative Christian groups were right about that one)."

I am saying YOU are NOT Richard Abanes. The very fact that you direct me to wiki proves that!
Well, this is indeed Richard Abanes.

Hey don't give me that "your" stuff.... ;) I'm just saying it wasn't anything that came up in my time there....
You're saying as a 20-year Mormon, you NEVER read The Book of Abraham -- which is a very highly prized book of holy writ as one of the Standard Works? That would be like me as a Christian saying that in 20 years I never read Genesis!

Why are all your comments in the form of an attack?
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to attack at all. Where is there an "attack." I will certainly apologize. I sought to explain: a) why it is sometimes difficult to zero in on Mormon teachings; and b) what the actual meanings are behind the previous explanations given about godhood, being literal children of God, and having a divine spark. I also sought to use nothing but LDS quotes for the Kolob issue. Where was the attack? :sorry1:

RA
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I never said I didn't read the book of Abraham... I just said it wasn't discussed as a central poinIt in the faith... it wasn't discussed at really.
Like many things in scripture, there is lots of room for symbolism and metaphor. I think you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

And the general tone if your statements such as the above... "you NEVER read.." are regardless of your intent... aggressive if not outright disrespectful.

I would suggest you keep the member standards in mind as you debate. This site draws a line between honest (if heated) discussion and attack.

wa:do
 

rabanes

Member
I still dont believe you are richard abanes, and unfortunately there is no way you can prove it.
Actually, there is. hee hee. pick some graphic from the web (NOT obscene) tell me where it is. I'll take it and upload it to my website abanes.com.

RA
 

Dream Angel

Well-Known Member
Actually, there is. hee hee. pick some graphic from the web (NOT obscene) tell me where it is. I'll take it and upload it to my website abanes.com.

RA

Surely any computer expert could do that?

Upload your Avatar (which is cool by the way!)

Another way you could is to email me from the address on the website - [email protected]
 

rabanes

Member
I never said I didn't read the book of Abraham... I just said it wasn't discussed as a central point in the faith...
Actually, uhm, I don't mean to be confontational, but you said, "in all my years as a Mormon I never heard of Kolob. I was LDS for twenty years."

That's not the same thing as saying, "I just said it wasn't discussed as a central point in the faith....it wasn't discussed at really."

This second message is a very different message.

Like many things in scripture, there is lots of room for symbolism and metaphor. I think you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.
It's not a symbol/metaphor. It's a real planet, according to LDS teachings, that is next to the residence of God, who is a man in form -- a man who progressed to godhood, just as you hope to progress to godhood (if you a a faithful Latter-day Saint).

And the general tone if your statements such as the above... "you NEVER read.." are regardless of your intent... aggressive if not outright disrespectful.
I didn't mean that to sound either aggressive or hostile. I was truly amazed since Kolob is in The Book of Abraham and it is the subject of a very popular song within the Church. I found it very surprising that you would say you "never heard of Kolob."

I would suggest you keep the member standards in mind as you debate. This site draws a line between honest (if heated) discussion and attack.
I will be most happy to do so. Every board, as you probably know, is different, and I would ask your patience while I learn this particular community's standards, feel, tone, and approach. I thank you in advance.

RA
 
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