What's wrong with Sharia Law?

[.lava]

I think that there can only be one law but not Sharia law,there is much misuse of it and so there should only be civil law.I say this because to have a religious law as well as a civil law would not be justice as the two crimes could be dealt with differently which of course would not be fair or just so sharia law should stay in the stoneage where it belongs.

hi,
if this post of yours was suppose to be a start, i must say it was bad one. but if it was suppose to be an end, it could not be done better.



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[.lava]

Then how come saying drinking Alcohol is not a crime? You know there's a hadd for drinking Alcohol:

As for drinking alcohol, there is a specific Hadd for that. In the early days of Islam, people who had stopped drinking prohibited others and those who committed the offence were lashed 40 times. They use to flail the drinker with anything that came to hand - a piece of cloth, a shoe, a stick - just to let the person feel that he or she had indulged in something prohibited. Later on when there was a complaint that people were returning to the old ways of drinking, `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) consulted the Muslims around, and `Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) said: "I think that drinking will make a person lose his mind and consequently start abusing others, uttering false accusations against them. So I think he deserves the same punishment for a person who falsely accuses other persons (Qadhif) that is 80 lashes." Henceforth, that became the standard of punishment for drinkers to stop them from falling into that."
Punishment for Smoking and Drinking Alcohol - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

the point i tried to make in my first post is about hadiths. there are many fake ones. so when you consider an hadith, you really should compare it with verses of Qur'an. if there is conflict, then take Qur'an as source. Islamic nations would not do that do you know any verses that supports this hadith?


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[Sahar]

the point i tried to make in my first post is about hadiths. there are many fake ones. so when you consider an hadith, you really should compare it with verses of Qur'an. if there is conflict, then take Qur'an as source. Islamic nations would not do that do you know any verses that supports this hadith?


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if there is conflict

Do you know any verse that's in conflict with such ahadeeth? I can't recall one, can you?
Plus, what's your standard exactly to decide whether the hadeeth is fake or not if the scholars of hadith classified a hadith as authentic?
Have you studied the science of hadith to be qualified to say this or that hadith is fake?

 

[.lava]

Do you know any verse that's in conflict with such ahadeeth? I can't recall one, can you?
Plus, what's your standard exactly to decide whether the hadeeth is fake or not if the scholars of hadith classified a hadith as authentic?
Have you studied the science of hadith to be qualified to say this or that hadith is fake?

hadith you shared tells about punishment for drinking alcohol. but i do not know anything about punishment of drinking alcohol from Qur'an. for example, there are information about punishment of adultery. it exists. punishment about alcohol does not exist. yet i personally would not see this as there is no conflict with this hadith. i mean, make up one rule on your own and tell me that Qur'an does not say otherwise. that is not enough. do you see my point? it has to support it.

here is one verse i know about alcohol;

[2:219] They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider.


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[.lava]

what's your standard exactly to decide whether the hadeeth is fake or not if the scholars of hadith classified a hadith as authentic?
Have you studied the science of hadith to be qualified to say this or that hadith is fake?

i don't study hadith. there are brothers and sisters who do. they always get help and they do compare it with Qur'an. but that's very hard work. it takes time. i did not finish studying Qur'an anyway. i am not even sure if my life time could be enough for that. on my own, i rather read Qur'an and follow commands in it. (if a command has no place in QUr'an but if it is in hadith books, i do not take it as word of God-that's my point) i trust Qur'an with no doubt. i can not trust hadith books. they are not untouched like Qur'an.





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[maro]

the sin that requires puinshment in Islam is not only what violates the rights of others , but what violates the Right of Allah as well....and that's the difference between Islam and secularism...in secularism , if you are not harming others , so you are free to do whatever you like.....drink alcohol , practice homosexuality ....YOU are free.....In islam , the limits are drawn by Allah and not anyone else....

Besides, the islamic regulations stem from both the quran , the authentic Hadith ,and also the ijtihad of the companions and trusted scholars...if the Quranis have something else to say..why not dicuss it their forum instead of here...This is not a debate area...

 

[maro]

In general, there are four major sources of jurisprudence: the Quran , the Sunnah, ijma' (consensus), and qiyas (analogy).

i have found this
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence
The Sources of Islamic Law 1
The Sources of Islamic Law 2 , it's very informative...

 

[.lava]

the sin that requires puinshment in Islam is not only what violates the rights of others , but what violates the Right of Allah as well....and that's the difference between Islam and secularism...in secularism , if you are not harming others , so you are free to do whatever you like.....drink alcohol , practice homosexuality ....YOU are free.....In islam , the limits are drawn by Allah and not anyone else....

hi maro,
i personally think people who say 'Islam is not secular' do not know Islam very well. Islam protects people whether they are Muslims or not. Islam guards right of people whether they follow commands of God or not.

there can not be society without any laws. living together requires limits. limits that God drawn are the best ones.

in Qur'an, verses tell every people on earth, how to be on the right path that leads God. Qur'an and its verses also gives the best solutions for social life.

for example, salaat is command of God. it is a sin not to perform salaat at least 5 times a day. but there is no punishment for it that comes from other people. Allah might punish person, that is another issue. but it is certain that Allah did not give any authority to anyone (not even Prophets) to punish people in case they refuse to perform salaat. performing salaat is an act between person and God. it has nothing to do with society.

there are also some lines drawn by God to establish justice between people. if you are Muslim you trust that borders.

my point here is about difference between rules that set to make society function with the smallest possibility of misunderstanding and other rules that interests just one person, not society.

according to Islam, a lady should wear headgear. it is her loss if she did not. yet no authority was given other people to force women to wear headgear. Allah actually forbids Muslims to force people to make them close to God. matter of fact forcing people to follow some rules that interests individual would never make them close to God. it would make them mischief-maker, which means while doing an act having no heart in it.

Besides, the islamic regulations stem from both the quran , the authentic Hadith ,and also the ijtihad of the companions and trusted scholars...if the Quranis have something else to say..why not dicuss it their forum instead of here...This is not a debate area...

Qur'an is the only source you can trust with no doubt as a Muslim.

nice to meet you maro




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[TashaN]

thank you for your respond but i do not have questions, not yet
in my opinion, the real problem of shariah is being called Islamic law. when we say Islamic, i think we should be able to find related verses in Qur'an. if not, i am not willing to call it Islamic. Islam is written in Qur'an, not in other places.


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It's in the Quran brother.

[59] O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Quran 4:59)

I have got the Turkish one too.

[59] Ey iman edenler! Allah'a itaat edin. Peygamber'e ve sizden olan ülülemre (idarecilere) de itaat edin. Eğer bir hususta anlaşmazlığa düşerseniz -Allah'a ve ahirete gerçekten inanıyorsanız- onu Allah'a ve Resûl'e gِtürün (onların talimatına gِre halledin); bu hem hayırlı, hem de netice bakımından daha güzeldir.

Peace.

 

[TashaN]

Any muslim immigrant or muslim English man/woman should leave the UK if they feel they can't practice their faith here. I'm waiting for a contradiction between the British law system and Islam that undermines a muslim being able to practice their faith.

As to your kind education on what the shariah is you'll find enlightenment in .lava's posts.

I think we better leave that UK part to the other thread you have started earlier.

Perhaps the Jewish do not under value their women like many muslims do. Within the muslim World a woman is the property of her father, then her husband and finally her son - no identity and no autonomy. Non of this is line with Quranic principles.

This is most apparent when you compare the Jewish state to many muslim countries. Men and Women work side by side in the former.

And how is that Islam's fault?

We are talking here about divine law, not what some ignorant muslims practice.

I had thought this for many years; and it didn't affect me as I had my nice little life until I started to study Islam, thanks to my family (and God) who always encouraged reflection, and from that I observed how muslims conducted themselves. The shariah is far from the teachings of the Quran, many of the principles applied in the shariah do not marry with the essence of the Quran. Prophet Muhammad did not apply anything different to what was in the Quran therefore, to say "the shariah is what the Prophet applied in his lifetime" is not valid.

The way of living (shariah) is clear in the Quran. I have no objection to muslim countries applying this as the law of the land but unfortunately the shariah applied in muslim countries today is not in line with Quranic principles of freedom (no compulsion in religion) and equality of the sexes.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the model in the west offers equality to women because we still have a long way to go. However, it saddens me that in Islam we already have all the solutions but muslims choose the misogynistic values. Some muslim women defend their second-class status in society because they haven't read and understood the Quran and/or they have the will beaten out of them and the fear of hell put into them.

And because of that we have to abandon Allah's law on earth?

Instead of blaming the muslims for how wrong they are doing it, you can encourage them to do it in an islamic way. Don't you think that would be a better idea?

 

[Sunstone]

is this sarcasm ? does christianty or other religions have a rule that you must not drive at this mph or over

It's not sarcasm.

 

[Sunstone]

i guess Phil is decently trying to tell us that the old shariah (1400 years ago) can't suit every little detail of our modern life (i guess there were no speed limits for the camels 1400 years ago ) ,
An excellent point and smartly put

Thanks. I love it when my lousy sense of humor is nevertheless appreciated -- especially by someone I like and admire.

i would say that problem arose right after the prophet (PBuh) died .., After the death of the Prophet when new problems arose, the Caliph would hold assembly of the companions and place the problem before it and it would be resolved either in the light of the Qur'an and the Sunnah or in the absence of it through collective wisdom. The best example is of punishment for drinking. When nothing was found in the Qur'an and the Prophet's Sunnah , Ali's suggestion that eighty lashes be given as a punishment for drinking was accepted on the grounds that after drinking a person tends to make false accusation and the punishment for false accusation in the Qur'an was eighty lashes......

In general, there are four major sources of jurisprudence: the Quran , the Sunnah, ijma' (consensus), and qiyas (analogy).

Regarding the speed limits ,there's an islamic principle that stem from the hadith of the prophet (PBUH) stating :There should be neither harm nor malice , The popular translation is "there should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm "....so if exceeding the speed limits is harmful to one's self and to others , you can then say it's forbidden by the shariah...also, smoking (according to the majority of scholars)....

if that didn't answer your question ,please let me know...

Thank you for taking the time to explain these things to me. I am very interested in how Shariah is applied to contemporary situations.

 

[Sunstone]

...so sharia law should stay in the stoneage where it belongs.

Shariah is at least reasonably sophisticated law. It might or might not be suited to contemporary societies, but there is no denying that the reasoning behind it is much advanced over what one might associate with the "stone age".

 

[.lava]

It's in the Quran brother.

[59] O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (Quran 4:59)

I have got the Turkish one too.

[59] Ey iman edenler! Allah'a itaat edin. Peygamber'e ve sizden olan ülülemre (idarecilere) de itaat edin. Eğer bir hususta anlaşmazlığa düşerseniz -Allah'a ve ahirete gerçekten inanıyorsanız- onu Allah'a ve Resûl'e gِtürün (onların talimatına gِre halledin); bu hem hayırlı, hem de netice bakımından daha güzeldir.

Peace.

i do not know what your point is. would you explain what's in Qur'an?


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[TashaN]

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[TashaN]

i do not know what your point is. would you explain what's in Qur'an?


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Sure.

The verse showed us clearly how we should behave. It mentioned that we have to do the followings as a start:

1- Obey Allah.
2- Obey Prophet Mohammed.
3- Obey those charged with authority among us.

Then, if we differed in anything so we have to: (refer it to Allah and His Messenger).

Now, if you think that this verse applies only in the life of prophet Mohammed, that means, the Quran is valid only at that time, and not as complete and perfect as you explained before "God forbid", otherwise, there is no way but to obey Allah AND his messenger "even today".

Now tell me please, if Allah didn't have a plan to let us refer to what the prophet have said or did, don't you think that this verse would be invalid "God forbid", and thus, the Quran proven to be imperfect?

 

[.lava]

Sure.

The verse showed us clearly how we should behave. It mentioned that we have to do the followings as a start:

1- Obey Allah.
2- Obey Prophet Mohammed.
3- Obey those charged with authority among us.

Then, if we differed in anything so we have to: (refer it to Allah and His Messenger).

Now, if you think that this verse applies only in the life of prophet Mohammed, that means, the Quran is valid only at that time, and not as complete and perfect as you explained before "God forbid", otherwise, there is no way but to obey Allah AND his messenger "even today".

Now tell me please, if Allah didn't have a plan to let us refer to what the prophet have said or did, don't you think that this verse would be invalid "God forbid", and thus, the Quran proven to be imperfect?

ok, now i understand what you mean. but this is entirely different subject. during time of Prophets maybe it was easier. but now it is not that simple. Prophets were given duty by God. when two people disagreed on something they used to go Prophet and tell him about situation. Prophet would ask God and shared the answer of God. because Prophets always had connection with God. Mohammed (PBUH) never spoke from his ego. because he did not have free will. he was submitted to God completely.

today, there are people who submitted their free wills to God. but Imams who's given duty by other people are not given authority from God. this verse you shared above...read it in Arabic. you'd see it says 'ask Ulu'ul Elbab. do you know who's Ul'Ul Elbab?


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[TashaN]

ok, now i understand what you mean. but this is entirely different subject. during time of Prophets maybe it was easier. but now it is not that simple. Prophets were given duty by God. when two people disagreed on something they used to go Prophet and tell him about situation. Prophet would ask God and shared the answer of God. because Prophets always had connection with God. Mohammed (PBUH) never spoke from his ego. because he did not have free will. he was submitted to God completely.

today, there are people who submitted their free wills to God. but Imams who's given duty by other people are not given authority from God. this verse you shared above...read it in Arabic. you'd see it says 'ask Ulu'ul Elbab. do you know who's Ul'Ul Elbab?


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Actually brother, it says "وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ" 'Uli al-Amr'.

Regarding the prophet, most of the questions being asked to him were answered through revealed verses on the spot. It's still there in the Quran, and all of us can read it, alhamdulilah.

 

[.lava]

Actually brother, it says "وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ" 'Uli al-Amr'.

Regarding the prophet, most of the questions being asked to him was answered through revealed verses on the spot. It's still there in the Quran, and all of us can read it, alhamdulilah.

i do not have surah Nisa here with me at the moment, sorry. i would ask about Uli al-Amr. let me try to find verse i was referring to.

btw: Mohammed (PBUH) was Qur'an. everything he said was based on it. that is for sure. but no women stoned to death in his time.



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[Sahar]

hadith you shared tells about punishment for drinking alcohol. but i do not know anything about punishment of drinking alcohol from Qur'an. for example, there are information about punishment of adultery. it exists. punishment about alcohol does not exist. yet i personally would not see this as there is no conflict with this hadith. i mean, make up one rule on your own and tell me that Qur'an does not say otherwise. that is not enough. do you see my point? it has to support it.

here is one verse i know about alcohol;

[2:219] They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider.


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I don't know any ayah says that the fajir prayer is two rak'a or the percentages of Zakah or how the hajj is performed....does this mean that the salah as we pray doesn't exist in Islam? :sarcastic
The Sunah of prophet emphasizes and explains the Qur'an. If every thing the prophet says has to have a similar copy in the Qur'an, then there's no need for the Sunnah. The Qur'an gives the basics and the Sunnah details and emphasizes.