Vicarious Redemption

[Aasimar]

A man walks into your house searching for expensive stereo equipment, jewelry, and other costly items. Your beautiful wife (or Dead sexy hubby, whatever) rolls over and moans in her sleep, the man panics thinking she has woken and fires 3 rounds into her chest, resulting in her lungs filling with blood and a slow excruciating death as she pleads for you to help her. You try everything but there is nothing you can do. She dies within an hour.

Later in life this man deeply regrets what he has done. He prays to God for forgiveness and it is granted (In theory.)

My question is this, what about the person's wronged? I would think the only people capable of forgiving the act is those whom the act injured. If a man did this to me I would most certainly not forgive him. I'm not saying I would track him down like a dog and kill him, but he most certainly would not have my forgiveness. So why is it that many people believe that Jesus can forgive that man even if I have not. He did not wrong Jesus (Though you may argue that he did, but nowhere near as directly as he harmed my wife, or me.)

I find the whole doctrine of Atonement to be highly amoral, that another person can pay for my crimes. Shucking off the responsibility of your own actions so to speak. And that is exactly what it is, I don't' know how many times I hear of people saying "Jesus lifted the burden off my shoulders." Why is it considered moral to shirk your responsibility in these matter? If you deeply regret what you have done, you still did it. She's still dead. You should bear the responsibility for your actions for the rest of your life. Anyway, thoughts on this?

 

[Captain Civic]

So why is it that many people believe that Jesus can forgive that man even if I have not.

Because... you won't?

You even said so in your post. I don't doubt that it would be a terribly traumatic experience, and I would not be at all surprised if you couldn't. But beyond even that, non forgiveness creates a pretty deep scar. You hold onto anger and pain, soon enough it'll engulf you. Forgiveness doesn't just liberate another person; in fact, it liberates you far more than the other person.

 

[Aasimar]

Because... you won't?

You even said so in your post. I don't doubt that it would be a terribly traumatic experience, and I would not be at all surprised if you couldn't. But beyond even that, non forgiveness creates a pretty deep scar. You hold onto anger and pain, soon enough it'll engulf you. Forgiveness doesn't just liberate another person; in fact, it liberates you far more than the other person.

Yes, but it is still my place to forgive, not anyone else. And I make the decision. It is not God's place to forgive a wrong done to me. This means nobody is accountable, and to modify the quote, "If God will forgive any wrong, anything is permitted."

 

[Captain Civic]

Yes, but it is still my place to forgive, not anyone else. And I make the decision. It is not God's place to forgive a wrong done to me. This means nobody is accountable, and to modify the quote, "If God will forgive any wrong, anything is permitted."

You're correct to an extent. It is no else's place but yours to forgive him of the pain he's caused you, but the pain that he's caused God is another matter. I don't believe God enjoys the sight of His creation dying needlessly at the frantic whim of a homocidal robber.

 

[rocketman]

Good thread topic.

He did not wrong Jesus (Though you may argue that he did, but nowhere near as directly as he harmed my wife, or me.)

It's an act against God also. His law is broken. If your child is damged you are damaged, if you truly love them. God said once that he was greievd by the violence on the earth. He's a victim of crime, or do you prefer not to think of him as having feelings?

I find the whole doctrine of Atonement to be highly amoral, that another person can pay for my crimes.

I would find it highly immoral if God didn't try to save his kids from their own foolishness. I find it highly understandable that a parent would die for their children to save them.

Shucking off the responsibility of your own actions so to speak.

Repentence is all about accepting your responsibilities. You can't transfer them to Jesus until you have truly and deeply accepted them as your own first. And it is not permitted to run away from what you have done either in practical terms.

Why is it considered moral to shirk your responsibility in these matter?

You have got this thing seriously back to front about christians. A christian, once they know they are saved, is under the strictest of compulsions to do the right thing by others, via the indwelling of the holy spirit. The idea that people can be saved and pretend their wrongdoing never hurt anybody is opposite to the whole thing. It's true that the burden is lifted, but the perspective is honest and humble, not boastful or dismissive. I suggest you read Matt 18:23-35

If you deeply regret what you have done, you still did it. She's still dead. You should bear the responsibility for your actions for the rest of your life. Anyway, thoughts on this?

Personally for practical reasons I think a person like you mentioned should be locked up in this life. Now then, God makes little or no distinction between types of sin. All sin inherits death, be it the action you described or 'lesser' ones. Let me ask you, are you prepared to bear the respnosibility of your actions for the rest of your eternal life? (Some say that is eternal suffering, personally I just think it's death, but that's for another thread) If a God who loved you found a way to fulfill his own contract and therefore release you from it (and the punishment it demanded) would you take it?

 

[McBell]

Now then, God makes little or no distinction between types of sin. All sin inherits death, be it the action you described or 'lesser' ones.

I disagree.
However, seeing as it is off topic, i created another topic for it:
Link to other topic

 

[rocketman]

I disagree.
However, seeing as it is off topic, i created another topic for it:
Link to other topic

I could have phrased it better. This is more what I meant.

 

[McBell]

I could have phrased it better. This is more what I meant.

Ah.
That makes much better sense now.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

From an Islamic POV, accepting Islam or asking Allah to forgive you for some sin absolves you only of the penalty AFTER DEATH that you may have otherwise deserved. It says nothing about the life of this world and the penalty you incur here. In fact, Allah's forgiveness covers the wrong done by breaking His law. If you have wronged a person such as the example given in the OP the penalty is death. This meets the requirement for punishment in this life, and if you have sincerely repented of the act prior to receiving punshiment, then it is Allah's decision to forgive it. Usually, once you undergo the death penalty in Islam, that act in itself absolves the person in the next life. Allah tends not to punish a person twice over for the same crime.

So as Asimar stated basically he is the only one in position to forgive the wrong done to him which is correct to a large degree. Allah is only forgiving a person for the law they broke set by Allah. Asking for forgiveness is not an attempt to get away from the responsibility of your own action. In fact one who believes in Allah is obliged to become stricter in their dealings with others in order to not break the rights of the people so as not to harm them, and also not to break the law of Allah by breaking others rights. If Allah have you to meet punishment for sin in this life, then you're pretty much free to go in the next, but if Allah rewards you for evil deeds by allowing you to get away with it, then rest assured one will have to face Allah on the day of judgement where there is no asking of forgiveness then (not for the crime of breaking rights which a murderer commits by the act of taking the right of life from someone).

 

[FFH]

I believe we do play a role in the ultimate forgiveness of others.

We will be partners in judgement and mercy/forgiveness, according to, and for those crimes committed against us.

I had an interesting dream two nights ago. I had offended another in real life, in the work place, I had cussed this particular kid out pretty good, and dreamed that very night that part of my tongue was cut off/out, and the person who I had offended earlier that day, sowed my tongue up, it was pretty bad, part of it was missing. I was amazed he had offered to come to my aid. He bound my wounds (tongue), even though I had cussed him out with the very same tongue..

I was also locked in a prison cell and he got me out of there.

To a certain degree our forgiveness is dependent upon the ones we have offended, but Christ has the ultimate/final say of course.

Christ has said, "blessed are the merciful, for they will obtain mercy."

Uh, in real life the dude, the very next day, quickly forgave me, as if nothing happened, I was equally amazed, as I was with the dream.

I thought he would be bitter and angry at me for sure for quite a while.

 

[ChristineES]

People always talk about whether they can forgive a crime done against them, so I will ask the opposite: If you did something wrong sometime and later were sorry, would you want to be forgiven for your crime?

 

[Aasimar]

People always talk about whether they can forgive a crime done against them, so I will ask the opposite: If you did something wrong sometime and later were sorry, would you want to be forgiven for your crime?

Of course I would want to be forgiven, but being the guilty party I would not be the one to make that call. It is the decision of the offended. And just because I want the forgiveness doesn't mean I deserve it.

 

[Aasimar]

Good thread topic.

It's an act against God also. His law is broken. If your child is damged you are damaged, if you truly love them. God said once that he was greievd by the violence on the earth. He's a victim of crime, or do you prefer not to think of him as having feelings?

God created a world with more then enough built in pain and suffering in order that I need not worry about his feelings, and he's all-powerful, can't imagine he gets all that distraught seeing as how he could actually make everything exactly the way he wants to at any given time.

I would find it highly immoral if God didn't try to save his kids from their own foolishness. I find it highly understandable that a parent would die for their children to save them.

Yeah, but he didn't have too. The whole Jesus dying thing makes no sense and everyone knows that. All-powerful means all-powerful, the whole song and dance about Jesus dying so we could be forgiven is a complete crock, It was not necessary. And there's no need for him to worry about saving people. All he has to do is hit reset on you. Or put your soul back on earth so you can try again. Or another world he made to test you. If he truly wanted to save all of his children, he would, he's all powerful.

Repentance is all about accepting your responsibilities. You can't transfer them to Jesus until you have truly and deeply accepted them as your own first. And it is not permitted to run away from what you have done either in practical terms.

Great, now just take away the Jesus part and transferring and you've got it. They are your responsibility and your burden to bear. And if you can't carry the burden, you better figure out a way to lighten the load. Tossing it upstairs is a cop out, you can clear your own conscience with time and effort.

You have got this thing seriously back to front about christians. A christian, once they know they are saved, is under the strictest of compulsions to do the right thing by others, via the indwelling of the holy spirit. The idea that people can be saved and pretend their wrongdoing never hurt anybody is opposite to the whole thing. It's true that the burden is lifted, but the perspective is honest and humble, not boastful or dismissive. I suggest you read Matt 18:23-35

I was raised Christian, I was a very devout Christian, and it was my devotion to the faith that led to my leaving it. As Julia Sweeney said to God "It is because I take you so seriously that I can't bring myself to believe in you."

And I have probed into the history of the bible well enough to not take it as any word of a deity, it has man-made stamped all over it. And how about being honest and forthright instead of humble.

Personally for practical reasons I think a person like you mentioned should be locked up in this life. Now then, God makes little or no distinction between types of sin. All sin inherits death, be it the action you described or 'lesser' ones. Let me ask you, are you prepared to bear the responsibility of your actions for the rest of your eternal life? (Some say that is eternal suffering, personally I just think it's death, but that's for another thread) If a God who loved you found a way to fulfill his own contract and therefore release you from it (and the punishment it demanded) would you take it?

What eternal life? The one we have no evidence of?I want to correct my indiscretions now if I can, and if I can't then bugger all they are left unfixed. If I wake up somewhere after I'm dead and remember what I did, well I have eternity to come up with a way to make up for my wrongdoing, I suppose I'll wait till then.

And god didn't need to make a bloody contract to begin with, who did he make it with himself? Who makes contracts with themselves?




And another question about giving Jesus your sin, what does that even mean? Is he sitting up somewhere worrying about everything everyone in the world used to fret about until they found him? How is that moral to Jesus? I don't care if he wants you to give it to him, if your father wanted you to let him pay off all your debts and bail you out, would you feel that letting him is the moral action? Or would you roll up your sleeves and pay your debts yourself?

 

[rocketman]

God created a world with more then enough built in pain and suffering in order that I need not worry about his feelings, and he's all-powerful, can't imagine he gets all that distraught seeing as how he could actually make everything exactly the way he wants to at any given time.

You speak as if God made us robots. Talk about a lack of understanding.

The whole Jesus dying thing makes no sense and everyone knows that.

News to me. Remind me to tell the 1.5+ billion believers.

All-powerful means all-powerful, ..

Free agency means free agency.

All he has to do is hit reset on you. Or put your soul back on earth so you can try again. Or another world he made to test you.

You cannot do it. You'd never get it right, thus you'd be forever unhappy. That's what this life is teaching us. You don't want to go through it again. You do understand why God said what he did in Gen 3:22 don't you?

Tossing it upstairs is a cop out, you can clear your own conscience with time and effort.

Say the person you affect forgives you. Would it be ok to toss it upstairs then? And let me tell you, 'toss' is the wrong word. Try 'handing over with great humility and thankfullness and respect and meekness"

And how about being honest and forthright instead of humble.

Honest and forthright, yep, they're a part of repentance too.

What eternal life? The one we have no evidence of?

Are we starting a new thread here?

And god didn't need to make a bloody contract to begin with, who did he make it with himself? Who makes contracts with themselves?

Seriously appalling lack of scriptural knowledge. Go do some serious reading.

Or would you roll up your sleeves and pay your debts yourself?

If we could have paid them I'm sure we would have. No one can. Except God.

The one thing you are missing in a big way is that to God we are all just as bad as each other.

What if it was up to other people and not God? Say you do two really bad things. What if one victim forgives you and the other doesn't?

Or what if someone you love decides to please God and accept his offer and also wants you to be with them forever too, will you say 'no I don't deserve it, sorry, bye..' ?

Ultimately it's all up to God, and he has offered a way out, but he won't force it on anyone. If you think it's wrong to accept this grace (free gift) keep in mind that everybody is as undeserving as you. Join the party or don't, it's up to you.

 

[cardero]

You're correct to an extent. It is no else's place but yours to forgive him of the pain he's caused you, but the pain that he's caused God is another matter. I don't believe God enjoys the sight of His creation dying needlessly at the frantic whim of a homocidal robber.

Um...Noah, the flood?

 

[sojourner]

Forgiveness is extremely difficult, at best. Forgiveness is a process, not an event. Sometimes it takes years -- or even a lifetime to come to a position of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is what brings healing. If one does not or cannot forgive, one's health will be compromised.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My question is this, what about the person's wronged? I would think the only people capable of forgiving the act is those whom the act injured. If a man did this to me I would most certainly not forgive him. I'm not saying I would track him down like a dog and kill him, but he most certainly would not have my forgiveness. So why is it that many people believe that Jesus can forgive that man even if I have not. He did not wrong Jesus (Though you may argue that he did, but nowhere near as directly as he harmed my wife, or me.)

According to my law prof, crime harms society as a whole, not just the victim... hence why in many places, it's not up to the victim to decide whether to "press charges": the police and justice system are considered within their rights to protect society's interests by prosecuting crime, even if the victim does not want to do so.

In that context, every single person is harmed when a murder is committed. Certainly the average member of society suffers much less harm than the victim herself or her loved ones, but the harm extends well beyond those who are directly affected by a specific crime.

People always talk about whether they can forgive a crime done against them, so I will ask the opposite: If you did something wrong sometime and later were sorry, would you want to be forgiven for your crime?

All else being equal, sure. That's not a full picture of Christian atonement, though. To turn the question around, would you want to be forgiven of a crime if it required that an innocent person be tortured to death?

Would you have another inmate killed to get your sentence reduced?

 

[Random]

Forgiveness in practice is divine. You do this and you are practically asking GOD for a boon.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

A man walks into your house searching for expensive stereo equipment, jewelry, and other costly items. Your beautiful wife (or Dead sexy hubby, whatever) rolls over and moans in her sleep, the man panics thinking she has woken and fires 3 rounds into her chest, resulting in her lungs filling with blood and a slow excruciating death as she pleads for you to help her. You try everything but there is nothing you can do. She dies within an hour.

Later in life this man deeply regrets what he has done. He prays to God for forgiveness and it is granted (In theory.)

My question is this, what about the person's wronged? I would think the only people capable of forgiving the act is those whom the act injured. If a man did this to me I would most certainly not forgive him. I'm not saying I would track him down like a dog and kill him, but he most certainly would not have my forgiveness. So why is it that many people believe that Jesus can forgive that man even if I have not. He did not wrong Jesus (Though you may argue that he did, but nowhere near as directly as he harmed my wife, or me.)

I find the whole doctrine of Atonement to be highly amoral, that another person can pay for my crimes. Shucking off the responsibility of your own actions so to speak. And that is exactly what it is, I don't' know how many times I hear of people saying "Jesus lifted the burden off my shoulders." Why is it considered moral to shirk your responsibility in these matter? If you deeply regret what you have done, you still did it. She's still dead. You should bear the responsibility for your actions for the rest of your life. Anyway, thoughts on this?

A thought on the atonement in relationship[to your question is that the wronged party is God and that payment is due to Him. It is then up to Him to decide how and in what manner that payment is recieved.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Um...Noah, the flood?

And where do you get the idea that God enjoyed that? Probably when you just thought it up?