Who here is enlightened?

[Penumbra]

I became enlightened ten years ago (i experienced the psychotic divine epiphany and retained the memory of it), ever since then i have been refining my ability to verbally express enlightened wisdom, and teach other people what enlightenment is all about. Now i can clearly explain what it means to be 'enlightened'. Every myth and religious story is an allegorical description of the process of "becoming enlightened", it is a major psychological transformation caused by divine experiences.

a major problem with this kind of discussion is people put 'enlightenment' on too high a pedestal, as if it is inherently unreachable by 'ordinary' people. There are evidently several 'enlightened' (ie transcendently re-programmed) people posting here.

What did you do to achieve the experience and what are the characteristics of the experience?

 

[Penumbra]

This pretty much describes my own experience. Though I would say I have experienced enlightenment- as I am referring (for the sake of this thread) to the prolonged altered state of reality I would more aptly call 'epiphany' - I would not say that I "am" enlightened.

IMEx the 'state of epiphany' is found as you are dislodged (or yes 'yanked') completely and suddenly from everything you have ever 'held to'/or 'held to be'. In the world but not of it, describes the experience quite well. Time melts away, every experience is heightened--or exponentially amplified- the sun is sunnier, the water wetter and deeper, the darkness darker, the grass greener- every thing surrounding you speaks- or is revelatory of other things. Strange and 'impossible' things appear to happen. It's like a sensory sensitivity symphony. The experience is no less than that of walking through an entirely new/different world. It would be hard to imagine that a person's whole world view would not be significantly altered (and extremely 'loosened') after 'coming back in' again- from this dislodged- or suspended - state between fixed reality points. Like student of X I know this as paradigm shifting. Funny that my religion is X.

I don't know if the state of epiphany can be sustained indefinitely. This is beyond (the scope of) my own experience/knowledge.

So you experienced it temporarily?

What were you doing when it occurred? Was it purely an enhancement of the senses as you described, or were there other characteristics such as new knowledge attained, etc?

 

[Penumbra]

Every being is already enlightened. Being enlightened means we have the option of believing we aren't enlightened and this idea that we aren't has spread through habit.

Where did this habit start?

Do you identify as a person who doesn't believe you are not enlightened?

 

[Penumbra]

It's hard to say. Mystical states don't come with hard-and-fast labels attached. But based on my studies of comparative mysticism I would say I've achieved states comparable to classic ego-death, ecstatic rapture, turiya, union with the Divine.

I practice mysticism. My main method is comparativism.

"The origins of the discipline of religious studies in nineteenth-century Europe are not primary mystical or even religious. A highly developed secular sense is a sine qua non of the discipline and its social sustainability anywhere on the planet (hence its virtual absense outside the Western academy). I would like, though, to make a restricted and heterodox case that regarding the discipline as a modern mystical tradition could be useful in approaching the constructive tasks being explored in these reflections. In this, I am not suggesting that the discipline must or even should be read in this way.

Rather, I wish only to make the much more restricted, but no less unorthodox, case that some of the discipline's practices and practitioners (that is, those capable of forging a tensive mystical-critical practice out of the discipline's dual Romantic/Enlightenment heritage) can be read in such a way, and that, moreover, such a mystical-critical rereading of the discipline might be useful for the constructive tasks under discussion here, namely, the cross-cultural influence of religious systems toward a safer, more humane, and more religiously satisfying world.

Scholars of religion, it turns out, often have profound religious experiences reading and interpreting the texts they critically study, and these events have consequences for the methods and models they develop, the conclusions they come to, and even for the traditions they study.

Poetically speaking, gnostic thought recognizes that religious expressions function as symbols and, as such, are simultaneously true and false, that they both reveal and conceal. Reductionism and revelation lie down together here in a (post)modern form of what the Sufi tradition understood as the paradox of the veil (hijab), that is, the psychological and linguistic necessity of cultural forms that reveal the divine light (which is in itself beyond all representation) precisely by concealing it behind veiled symbols and signs."-Jeffrey J. Kripal

You have achieved those states but are not currently in those states?

After ego-death, what revived the ego? Or do you currently consider yourself ego-less? When you united with the divine, what were the characteristics of the experience?

 

[Penumbra]

I believe that some philosophical choices I've made set me ahead of the curve, so to speak. This sounds very arrogant, I'm sure. But from my point of view it seems that reality continually rewards my subjective view of it with positive results. This is as close to enlightenment as I can imagine. I don't think I'm unique in this trait, nor do I believe I have reached any sort of pinnacle in this regard as I continually improve, as I assume everyone does.

Its hard for me to articulate what choices I'm talking about. They are all really intertwined with each other and only the combination results in the effect I'm talking about. And it's always shifting anyway, since that is a key component to begin with. I don't believe that the choices I've made would necessarily work for everyone, though. So specifics aren't exactly relevant. Mainly, I think that taking active control of your personal philosophy is key to a rewarding life. Honesty with yourself is probably the most important. Beyond that I could really blather for pages and it would only be relevant to me personally with any regularity.

As for what its like... its sort of like being a normal human (which I obviously was for a long time) but you get to have a smirk 100% of the time and no one even asks you why. It feels like... victory. Movie reference intended.

Do you think enlightenment is the best term to use there, or would you simply call it making good life decisions?

 

[Student of X]

You have achieved those states but are not currently in those states?

Correct. Mystical states of consciousness fade over time, followed by a 'dark night of the soul' stage, until a permanent unitive state is reached.

But it might be more accurate to say those states achieved me. :areyoucra

After ego-death, what revived the ego?

The archetype of rebirth.

Or do you currently consider yourself ego-less?

No I have an ego-self. It's just not what it was. Its been transformed. Sort of like how Thomas Anderson died and was reborn transformed as Neo... he then had a higher order of knowledge. But not all the answers.

When you united with the divine, what were the characteristics of the experience?

*points to the universe*

That.

Not sure how knowing the characteristics of that experience will help you. Better that you should have it yourself. Not sure where to even start talking about it. But if you really are interested in stuff like this there are books you should be reading rather than hanging out on the net, imo. Have you read this?

Amazon.com: Mysticism (9781463694975): Evelyn Underhill: Books

 

[savagewind]

Enlightenment might be a genetic malformation in the brain. Or it might be an evolutionary advantage. I'd go with an evolutionary advantage. I have experienced what I believe might be enlightenment. But how does one really know?

I understand it is a light on in a room vs lights out. Haha

 

[Penumbra]

Correct. Mystical states of consciousness fade over time, followed by a 'dark night of the soul' stage, until a permanent unitive state is reached.

But it might be more accurate to say those states achieved me. :areyoucra

The archetype of rebirth.

No I have an ego-self. It's just not what it was. Its been transformed. Sort of like how Thomas Anderson died and was reborn transformed as Neo... he had a higher order of knowledge. But not all the answers.

What did you do to experience enlightenment?

*points to the universe*

That.

Not sure how knowing the characteristics of that experience will help you. Better that you should have it yourself. Not sure where to even start talking about it.

So when you were united with the universe, did you acquire any knowledge that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to have in your own body and mind?

For example, I'm part of the universe. So if you united with the universe, you must have united with me. Do you know anything about me that is not available on this forum?

But if you really are interested in stuff like this there are books you should be reading rather than hanging out on the net, imo. Have you read this?

Amazon.com: Mysticism (9781463694975): Evelyn Underhill: Books

I've already read a number of books on religions and philosophies. Not that particular one, though.

I'll look into it but I'm not so interested in reading more religious books at this time, and have instead been reading other types of books.

Better it seems to see who on RF proposes to be enlightened.

 

[Walkntune]

Every being is already enlightened. Being enlightened means we have the option of believing we aren't enlightened and this idea that we aren't has spread through habit.

IMO This is true to a degree.To be enlighened is to transend past the ego. The separation between us and enlightenment begins as a child as our ego grows so does the separation.Christ even taught to enter the kingdom one must come as a child.I believe the loss of innocence is the place where separation begins.
I don't know exactly what true enlightenment would be like but I can tell you kudalini arousal or spiritual emergency is not very fun.Sometimes it feels as dark and cold as death itself.

 

[Anatta]

Then we probably shouldn't have ever heard of enlightenment, because anyone who has experienced it wouldn't talk about it.

Depends who you ask. I believe that in Theravada countries, if a monk talks about personal spiritual attainments publicly, he can get himself disrobed quickly and permanently. So I'm not holding my breath for any Thai Ajahns here.

Instead, scriptures and religions are buzzing with people describing it, claiming to be it, etc. This thread has plenty of people proposing to enlightened now.

I myself don't know what the term means. I also don't know what Bodhi means, but I believe (could be wrong here... maybe not) that the term Enlightenment was grafted onto the Pali Bodhi by Mr. and Mrs. Rhys Davids, a couple of British Pali scholars from the turn of the century who had plenty of ulterior motives (don't we all) for making Buddhism resemble Protestant Christianity. And, of course, Enlightenment is a term which has its own meaning it the socio-political history of Europe and Christianity.

So I find it very fascinating what this mysterious Bodhi could actually mean in terms of first-person experience, and if it has any such meaning. I have not found monks at all helpful in this matter. But I'm not sure I can blame them, they're just modern people who walk around with memorized fragments of a silent 2,500 year-old language in their heads, so is it fair to expect any better?

 

[Student of X]

What did you do to experience enlightenment?

Well, I practiced mysticism for years. Comparativism, Bhakti yoga.

So when you were united with the universe, did you acquire any knowledge that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to have in your own body and mind?

Yeah. A higher order of knowledge.

For example, I'm part of the universe. So if you united with the universe, you must have united with me. Do you know anything about me that is not available on this forum?

Nope. That's a lower order of knowledge and its not what its all about. When Neo was liberated from the illusion of the Matrix he didn't automatically gain knowledge about who is who in the Matrix. He gained a higher order of knowledge.

 

[Sir Doom]

Do you think enlightenment is the best term to use there, or would you simply call it making good life decisions?

Sure, it may not fit the classical definition. But I think its very difficult to make good life decisions without a clear understanding of reality. I can't really formulate much of an opinion based on any sort of alternate dimensions or aspects or planes of reality as they are not apparent to me, if that is what we are looking for.

 

[apophenia]

When Neo was liberated from the illusion of the Matrix he didn't automatically gain knowledge about who is who in the Matrix. He gained a higher order of knowledge.

Yet, if you go down the K-hole, 'higher' knowledge and direct telepathic intermingling routinely occur together. At any distance. With plenty of objective evidence. For me and those I know anyway. On the first occasion, a friend in another city (Sydney) woke from sleep directly into 'white light' ( he was also a regular meditator ) and was fully aware of my presence. He had no idea why. This was after I had returned to my body, and I was playing my bass. My friend told me ( before I confirmed it) that he was aware that I was playing bass at the time. At exactly the same time, two friends in Melbourne lit candles and said prayers to encourage me to return there. Both the friend from Sydney and from Melbourne rang me the next day to talk about the experience ! And on that morning (after the night before) I decided to attend a pentecostal church service ( !!! not at all typical for me ). When I arrived ( riding a tricycle in full hippy regalia ) I walked in and the band was playing - the bassist was playing an identical bass to mine ( a green Azumi ) through an identical amp to mine ( a Wasp valve head ) - both uncommon choices. Then the preacher called on anyone who was in the presence of the lord to come to the front and dance - and I did, without hesitation, and danced ecstatically with no inhibition or ego for quite a while. Conservative country pentecostals were embracing me in the street for months later, still expressing delight at the buzz they got from my dancing !
That was a startling and unexpected outcome ( and my first experience of K-space).

Probably why Leary nominated it as the circuit 8 (sub-atomic) trigger. My first words when I first emerged were "like we are all water poured into in the same bowl". And not just philosophically.

So I can attest to the fact that when you are fully on, all circuits are firing, from the mundane to the ineffable, and any differentiation of 'higher' and 'lower' just means you are not fully on !

I do not go down the K-hole anymore, and do not wish to encourage others to do so.

 

[Anatta]

Correct. Mystical states of consciousness fade over time, followed by a 'dark night of the soul' stage, until a permanent unitive state is reached.

But it might be more accurate to say those states achieved me. :areyoucra

The archetype of rebirth.

No I have an ego-self. It's just not what it was. Its been transformed. Sort of like how Thomas Anderson died and was reborn transformed as Neo... he then had a higher order of knowledge. But not all the answers.

*points to the universe*

That.

Not sure how knowing the characteristics of that experience will help you. Better that you should have it yourself. Not sure where to even start talking about it. But if you really are interested in stuff like this there are books you should be reading rather than hanging out on the net, imo. Have you read this?

Amazon.com: Mysticism (9781463694975): Evelyn Underhill: Books

I have a question about mystical states.

How does the practitioner know that what you're describing is in fact really happening, as opposed to simply convincing oneself that it is happening, because of personal investment into it, or because one is seeking to fill some unrelated and unexamined need which this might be a means of addressing, or because one has latent schizophrenia or mad-cow disease? Forgive my awkward comparison, but psychotic patients don't realize they're psychotic - it is the nature of the psychosis.

So, considering that our minds are fallible, and without specifically questioning whether such states as you describe factually take place, how does one know (according to techniques you're familiar with) that it is taking place, as opposed to some "false alarm", or worse, self-delusion? Do the techniques address the possibility of mis-identification of states, of first-timer confusion, or outright mental illness?

 

[Student of X]

I have a question about mystical states.

How does the practitioner know that what you're describing is in fact really happening, as opposed to simply convincing oneself that it is happening, because of personal investment into it, or because one is seeking to fill some unrelated and unexamined need which this might be a means of addressing, or because one has latent schizophrenia or mad-cow disease? Forgive my awkward comparison, but psychotic patients don't realize they're psychotic - it is the nature of the psychosis.

So, considering that our minds are fallible, and without specifically questioning whether such states as you describe factually take place, how does one know (according to techniques you're familiar with) that it is taking place, as opposed to some "false alarm", or worse, self-delusion? Do the techniques address the possibility of mis-identification of states, of first-timer confusion, or outright mental illness?

Sort of like how you know your sexual orgasm is really happening, as opposed to simply convincing yourself it is happening because you're horny. Plus, like apophenia said, the acquisition of non-local information routinely occurs which provides opportunities to verify non-local information for yourself.

Of course those verifications are just anecdotes to other people but hey you gotta find the truth for yourself, not for other people.

 

[apophenia]

I have a question about mystical states.

How does the practitioner know that what you're describing is in fact really happening, as opposed to simply convincing oneself that it is happening, because of personal investment into it...

See my previous post.

I could give lots of other examples of experiences which also involved others in some way, and without them having any prior knowledge of my state. I can't prove this of course, unless you want to come to Australia and talk to my friends.

The weird thing is, I am a die-hard skeptic mostly. Sometimes remembering some of the states and experiences from my life is almost annoying, because I have little time for most other people who make such claims !

Same with magick. I have had conclusive undeniable evidence that one can cause events to occur, again because others, who could not possibly have known what I was doing according to the normal scientific view of reality, have confronted me about them and shocked me with what they experienced and knew in relation to my workings. I can explain later what I mean if you're interested, but right now I'm going to the beach ...

Happy New Year ! ( I'm about 16 hours ahead of you Americans )

 

[Penumbra]

Depends who you ask. I believe that in Theravada countries, if a monk talks about personal spiritual attainments publicly, he can get himself disrobed quickly and permanently. So I'm not holding my breath for any Thai Ajahns here.

Would they have done the same to Siddhartha Gautama?

I myself don't know what the term means. I also don't know what Bodhi means, but I believe (could be wrong here... maybe not) that the term Enlightenment was grafted onto the Pali Bodhi by Mr. and Mrs. Rhys Davids, a couple of British Pali scholars from the turn of the century who had plenty of ulterior motives (don't we all) for making Buddhism resemble Protestant Christianity. And, of course, Enlightenment is a term which has its own meaning it the socio-political history of Europe and Christianity.

So I find it very fascinating what this mysterious Bodhi could actually mean in terms of first-person experience, and if it has any such meaning. I have not found monks at all helpful in this matter. But I'm not sure I can blame them, they're just modern people who walk around with memorized fragments of a silent 2,500 year-old language in their heads, so is it fair to expect any better?

This is specifically why I made the thread a "pick your own word" thread, to avoid people talking about the specific word or the history of where that word comes from.

 

[Anatta]

Sort of like how you know your sexual orgasm is really happening, as opposed to simply convincing yourself it is happening because you're horny.

Sexual orgasm is characterized by pleasurable muscular contractions of the genitals, a rather specific occurrence. Is this what you really mean here?

Plus, like apophenia said, the acquisition of non-local information routinely occurs which provides opportunities to verify non-local information for yourself.

Have you, like apophenia, positively, and on multiple occasions been verified to be telepathic?

You have not addressed my question about safeguards concerning confusion, mistakes, or mental errors due to factors like illness. Are there any safeguards?

 

[Penumbra]

Well, I practiced mysticism for years. Comparativism, Bhakti yoga.

Yeah. A higher order of knowledge.

Which higher order of knowledge did you acquire?

Nope. That's a lower order of knowledge and its not what its all about. When Neo was liberated from the illusion of the Matrix he didn't automatically gain knowledge about who is who in the Matrix. He gained a higher order of knowledge.

Did you skip over the lower order of knowledge or did you acquire that too?

Sort of like how you know your sexual orgasm is really happening, as opposed to simply convincing yourself it is happening because you're horny. Plus, like apophenia said, the acquisition of non-local information routinely occurs which provides opportunities to verify non-local information for yourself.

Which non-local information did you acquire?

Of course those verifications are just anecdotes to other people but hey you gotta find the truth for yourself, not for other people.

They can be verifications to other people if the knowledge that is acquired is something that the other people know, but that you should not know without non-local means. Since, if you know that information, then you acquired it non-locally.

 

[Anatta]

Would they have done the same to Siddhartha Gautama?

I've asked. They could not process the question.