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What is True? Does A = A?

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
I believe that truth is similar to existence in that if something exists that means that a proposition corresponds to a reality.For example, do unicorns exist? If the definition (horse with a horn) corresponds to something that exists that means that unicorns exist. I agree with Kant that existence is not a predicate (property ). Therefore , I believe that truth is not a predicate (property ).
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I don't believe so. Can you demonstrate that I am?



Asked and answered:



Beyond that, I'll cite the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
From your linked article http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-noncontradiction/

"The Peculiar Status of the Principle of Non-Contradiction

Aristotle says that PNC is one of the common axioms, axioms common to all the special sciences. It has no specific subject matter, but applies to everything that is. It is a first principle and also the firmest principle of all. Like modus ponens, as Lewis Carroll memorably showed, PNC does not function as a premise in any argument. Unlike modus ponens, PNC is not a rule of inference. Aristotle says that it is a principle which “is necessary for anyone to have who knows any of the things that are” (Metaph IV 3 1005b15). It is no mere hypothesis.
"​

Clearly shows that, Logikal's claim "Axiom has always been a MATH term. Never a logical term," is erroneous.

Nice to have these things set straight. :thumbsup:
 

Logikal

Member
I never claimed that axioms were a requirement to learning logic. I claimed that the nature of the first principles of logic were important to understand in order to make sense of the transcendental argument for the existence of God. That said, I would certainly claim that even classical logic (over against formal symbolic logic or math) depends upon assertions taken as self-evident. I've already provided a source prior to Boole where this is stressed: Aristotle's Posterior Analytics. He also develops the same idea in the Metaphysics.

I would also claim that as soon as one wants to learn about the epistemological foundations of logic in philosophy that one is going to encounter those first principles, even though you can learn logic without them. That's why they are important to TAG; TAG is an argument about the epistemological foundations of logic. I'm not primarily concerned with whether or not we call those first principles axioms, but I think I've amply demonstrated that your insistence that "axiom" is only a mathematical term is false. It is both a technical term in mathematics as well as a descriptive term in Aristotle's development of logic, which I think is certainly the most important classical system of logic.

As far as my request to you to provide an argument to support your claim, I would accept any academic source or classical philosophical text which supports the assertions you've made, namely

a) it is inappropriate to use the term axiom to refer to the law of identity
b) the law of identity is not axiomatic in the sense of "self-evidently true", but is "sense verifiable". (please explain what "sense verifiable" means. induction?)
c) 50 years ago you would never say deductive logic has axioms (I believe I've disproven this in citing Aristotle)
d) Aristotle used the term axiom only in relation to mathematics (I believe I've disproven this also in citing Posterior Analytics)

Well there is an issue: your list from a - d are not things I literally said. I have expressed ideas similar to those but to require I find that exact wording may not happen; it might not happen for various reasons but has nothing to do with truth values of claims. I have expressed people like you in Math are directly taught those things in MASSES. I have to also express that if YOU agree learning the Logical laws are not required or necessary to learn deductive logic then you OUGHT to realize that the so called logical laws are LOGICALLY NECESSARY. That is they are impossible to violate in the CORRECT CONTEXT. many people THINK they have examples of violations but distort the context. Science lovers particularly love the particle wave example they think violates the law of excluded middle.
Sense verifiable should be clear. By sense verifiable I refer to someone like you to claim knowledge you MUST use one of your famous senses: sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste, etc. That is if you can't apply one of your senses you will selectively make your mind up at will. If your senses report a DIFFERENT story from what was told to you, you will more than likely disbelieve. That is sense verification. Some people use the word induce or the method of induction and so on. They express the same idea even though different words are used.

c and d as you list them: I can't find a single source that over uses the terms axiom and validity as much as math text use. Each and every source -- including your link-- mentions geometric figures in the same context each time the term axiom is expressed. The literal word AXIOM is not used in your link but the concept is indeed expressed, but in the same paragraph there is reference to triangles or other shapes know in geometry. These are clear to understand which is why the author uses them. Also people historically think philosophy is uncertain as a subject. Using Math which all people think is reliable helps persuade the audience of the message is true. If geometry was not used people would doubt it just because it is philosophy. Sort of like listening to an army Captain over a private even though both expressed the same idea (and not the same literal utterance). Axioms in math are assumed propositions. So there are humans walking around thinking that logic begins with assumed premises. This is false. I can KNOW my proposition is true from the start! It is possible I can reason from assumptions. Yes there are rules how to do so but all arguments need not begin with axioms or assumptions. Because you cannot tell the difference if a proposition is true or false DOES NOT MEAN the proposition is UNKOWN. All propositions have a truth value whether you KNOW about it or NOT. I recall a Christian named Harold Camping from Family Radio predicting the end of days-- when Jesus will return. He made more than one prediction and was wrong at least twice. I recall may 22, 2010 was his last prediction. He made the claims BEFOE the DATE though--many years prior. So he made the 2010 prediction lets say in 1998. How are you supposed to know in 1998 that "Jesus will return specifically in 2010 " is a true proposition if the current year is 1998 or 1908 for that matter? That is a personal problem that you don't know. Who cares about how you know? You KNOW now the claim is false. The proposition was false when it was made but you were not aware of it. If I say "Jesus will return in 3099" this proposition has a truth value. In math and science you will be taught that if you have no sense verification you don't know and you will likely use NOT TRUE to describe such a proposition. Thanks George Boole! All unicorns are white does not express a true proposition because there are no unicorns you can apply senses to. Show me a philosopher that said or expressed this BEFORE Boole. I say you cannot because this is one of the things that made BOOLE famous. After him many people jumped on the bandwagon. He [Boole] missed the point and changed contexts to "something practical".
 

Logikal

Member
I believe that truth is similar to existence in that if something exists that means that a proposition corresponds to a reality.For example, do unicorns exist? If the definition (horse with a horn) corresponds to something that exists that means that unicorns exist. I agree with Kant that existence is not a predicate (property ). Therefore , I believe that truth is not a predicate (property ).


This is not a VALID method because you can not guarantee 100% results all the times you use this reasoning. Do predicates EVER correspond to their subjects? The proposition "All dogs are animals" does qualify with reality but the unicorn example does not. Do you not see the propositions have the SAME FORM or PATTERN visually? Clearly you must determine truth by the CONTENT of THAT particular proposition and NOT THE FORM which formal logic is said to do by form alone. It is clear that some propositions do not correspond to reality when expressing a term. Me stating some times in my life I play the piano is not so newsworthy. Humans want universal knowledge over nit picking trivial knowledge which is harder to retain. To learn which specific dog is an animal and have to recall which dog a person is referring to and then decide is that one an animal is making something simple way HARDER than need be. It is far easier to CLASSIFY universally. Universal claims that are true have priority over trivial claims.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How would you respond to the people asking you those silly questions?
Without all conversational parties agreeing that A = A, aka the Law of Identity, a conversation can not be had, because no coherent sentence can be formed without that foundation.

Even trying to argue that the Law of Identity is invalid requires the use of the Law of Identity within its own argument, and is self-refuting.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The so called logical laws are SENSE VERIFIABLE!!=
Quantum mechanics (and quantum logics) violate the most fundamental logical "laws" (the LNC and non tertium datur). Logic CANNOT be sense verifiable without being worthless. The entire point is that there exists logical "musts" that, if we accept as true certain premises, we therefore except as true certain conclusions regardless of senses.

You cannot show any of them to be false WITHOUT CHANGING THE CONTEXT of the said laws.
The entire point is basically the absence of such a context.
Axiom has always been a MATH term. Never a logical term.
Logic was, is, and will always be an area of mathematics as much as it is philosophy.

Euclid was the first known writing to use such a term.
Euclid was a mathematician.
When Aristotle used the term AXIOM he was talking specifically about GEOMETRY which is of course MATH.
Not to Aristotle (or any Greek).
Can you demonstrate Aristotle using the term AXIOM without talking about MATH
Can you demonstrate Aristotle's use of any term?
 

Logikal

Member
Quantum mechanics (and quantum logics) violate the most fundamental logical "laws" (the LNC and non tertium datur). Logic CANNOT be sense verifiable without being worthless. The entire point is that there exists logical "musts" that, if we accept as true certain premises, we therefore except as true certain conclusions regardless of senses.


The entire point is basically the absence of such a context.

Logic was, is, and will always be an area of mathematics as much as it is philosophy.


Euclid was a mathematician.

Not to Aristotle (or any Greek).

Can you demonstrate Aristotle's use of any term?

Does this require I use the original language? Why can't I know what a concept expresses in any language? Why must it be your rules? Can any concept be translated to express the same idea without a loss in meaning? You seem not to think it cannot be done.

Can you cite any sources that suggest logic was part of mathematics prior to the invention of Mathematical Logic which is only in 19 century?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Well there is an issue: your list from a - d are not things I literally said. I have expressed ideas similar to those but to require I find that exact wording may not happen; it might not happen for various reasons but has nothing to do with truth values of claims.

If I understood you properly you are saying that my paraphrase of your points distorts your meaning, but for "various reasons" you might not go back to find your exact wording in order to correct me or to address my request. Since it was not my intention to misrepresent you, please allow me to quote for you the parts of your posts which led me to create my (a) through (d) as claims you have made which I would like you to support:

a) it is inappropriate to use the term axiom to refer to the law of identity

In deductive logic the law of identity is not an axiom. Axiom is a Math term. Aristotles's logic begins with NO AXIOMS

What do you mean by A=A "being an axiomatic statement"? Axiom as I have stated is a math term. Why are you using a math term when the law of identity is a logical term? Do you think Math = Logic?

Axiom has always been a MATH term. Never a logical term.
b) the law of identity is not axiomatic in the sense of "self-evidently true", but is "sense verifiable"

The law of identity is sense verifiable --That is how we KNOW it to be true.

You are mistaken! The so called logical laws are SENSE VERIFIABLE!! You cannot show any of them to be false WITHOUT CHANGING THE CONTEXT of the said laws.

(Note that one reason I asked you to explain what you mean by "sense verifiable" is because your second sentence here is opaque to me. I don't know what is meant by "changing the context" and given that you mean "sense verifiable" to mean that we observe the law of identity with our senses, I'm not sure what you could mean by it.)
c) 50 years ago you would never say deductive logic has axioms

50 years ago you would never really say deductive logic has axioms. 50 years ago terminology was taught pretty much the same in philosophy.
d) Aristotle used the term axiom only in relation to mathematics

Aristotles's logic begins with NO AXIOMS.

When Aristotle used the term AXIOM he was talking specifically about GEOMETRY which is of course MATH
If you would like to replace any or all of (a) through (d) with one of the quotes provided and then provide either an academic or philosophical source in support of it, I would consider that to be support for your positions.

you OUGHT to realize that the so called logical laws are LOGICALLY NECESSARY. That is they are impossible to violate in the CORRECT CONTEXT.

"in the correct context" is a bit hand-wavy but I would agree with this more or less. I don't think we have a substantial disagreement about how the PNC or the law of identity function in this regard. We probably have a slight disagreement about whether they are "sense verifiable", but I think that could be separated from this. "Logically necessary" reads to me as being very close in meaning to "axiomatic" as the latter is used by Aristotle in the Posterior Analytics. The main disagreement, I believe, is historical and terminological. You claim that it's incorrect to refer to these laws as "axioms" and that Aristotle never did so. The problem is you are mistaken, which I've already demonstrated.

Sense verifiable should be clear. By sense verifiable I refer to someone like you to claim knowledge you MUST use one of your famous senses: sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste, etc. That is if you can't apply one of your senses you will selectively make your mind up at will. If your senses report a DIFFERENT story from what was told to you, you will more than likely disbelieve. That is sense verification. Some people use the word induce or the method of induction and so on. They express the same idea even though different words are used.

If I understand you, you are describing an empiricist view of knowledge, and suggesting that we arrive at a knowledge of the fundamental principles of logic empirically. From a modern perspective, I'm sympathetic to this idea in a rough way, in the sense that the entirety of our empirical observations lead to an abductive argument for the laws, and in comparison with Plato, I think you can make the argument that Aristotle is much closer to being an empiricist, if not a modern one. We might also say that his formulation is not impervious to revision.

The problem is that, if you are attempting to describe Aristotle's view of these primary laws, he never argues towards them in this kind of way. When you describe them as "logically necessary", in the sense that without them logic simply can't get anywhere useful, I think that's a much closer representation. And that's basically what we mean when we call them "self-evident" or "axiomatic". For example, again from Posterior Analytics (emphasis added):

"Some hold that, owing to the necessity of knowing the primary premises, there is no scientific knowledge. Others think there is, but that all truths are demonstrable. Neither doctrine is either true or a necessary deduction from the premises. The first school, assuming that there is no way of knowing other than by demonstration, maintain that an infinite regress is involved, on the ground that if behind the prior stands no primary, we could not know the posterior through the prior (wherein they are right, for one cannot traverse an infinite series): if on the other hand-they say-the series terminates and there are primary premises, yet these are unknowable because incapable of demonstration, which according to them is the only form of knowledge. And since thus one cannot know the primary premises, knowledge of the conclusions which follow from them is not pure scientific knowledge nor properly knowing at all, but rests on the mere supposition that the premises are true. The other party agree with them as regards knowing, holding that it is only possible by demonstration, but they see no difficulty in holding that all truths are demonstrated, on the ground that demonstration may be circular and reciprocal.

Our own doctrine is that not all knowledge is demonstrative: on the contrary, knowledge of the immediate premises is independent of demonstration. (The necessity of this is obvious; for since we must know the prior premisses from which the demonstration is drawn, and since the regress must end in immediate truths, those truths must be indemonstrable.) Such, then, is our doctrine, and in addition we maintain that besides scientific knowledge there is its originative source which enables us to recognize the definitions. (Posterior Analytics, I, 3)
And in The Metaphysics (again emphases added), speaking of the principle of non-contradiction:

"He whose subject is existing things qua existing must be able to state the most certain principles of all things. This is the philosopher, and the most certain principle of all is that regarding which it is impossible to be mistaken; for such a principle must be both the best known (for all men may be mistaken about things which they do not know), and non-hypothetical. For a principle which every one must have who understands anything that is, is not a hypothesis; and that which every one must know who knows anything, he must already have when he comes to a special study.

Evidently then such a principle is the most certain of all; which principle this is, let us proceed to say. It is, that the same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect; we must presuppose, to guard against dialectical objections, any further qualifications which might be added. This, then, is the most certain of all principles, since it answers to the definition given above. For it is impossible for any one to believe the same thing to be and not to be, as some think Heraclitus says. For what a man says, he does not necessarily believe; and if it is impossible that contrary attributes should belong at the same time to the same subject (the usual qualifications must be presupposed in this premiss too), and if an opinion which contradicts another is contrary to it, obviously it is impossible for the same man at the same time to believe the same thing to be and not to be; for if a man were mistaken on this point he would have contrary opinions at the same time. It is for this reason that all who are carrying out a demonstration reduce it to this as an ultimate belief; for this is naturally the starting-point even for all the other axioms.

There are some who, as we said, both themselves assert that it is possible for the same thing to be and not to be, and say that people can judge this to be the case. And among others many writers about nature use this language. But we have now posited that it is impossible for anything at the same time to be and not to be, and by this means have shown that this is the most indisputable of all principles.

Some indeed demand that even this shall be demonstrated, but this they do through want of education, for not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education. For it is impossible that there should be demonstration of absolutely everything (there would be an infinite regress, so that there would still be no demonstration); but if there are things of which one should not demand demonstration, these persons could not say what principle they maintain to be more self-evident than the present one.
(Metaphysics, IV, 4)
c and d as you list them: I can't find a single source that over uses the terms axiom and validity as much as math text use. Each and every source -- including your link-- mentions geometric figures in the same context each time the term axiom is expressed. The literal word AXIOM is not used in your link but the concept is indeed expressed, but in the same paragraph there is reference to triangles or other shapes know in geometry.

Two of your assertions above are false. The literal word "axiom" is used in Posterior Analytics. I have already provided a link to the Greek text to support that claim. Additionally, the passage cited from Posterior Analytics was not speaking specifically about geometry, but explicitly says that it is speaking of principles that go beyond geometry. Additionally, I have just above cited a passage from The Metaphysics which also uses the literal word "axiom" and also is quite clearly not discussing geometry. Here is a snippet in Greek pulled out of the larger quote above:

φύσει γὰρ ἀρχὴ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀξιωμάτων αὕτη πάντων.
"for this is naturally the starting point for all the other axioms"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=4:section=1005b

So there are humans walking around thinking that logic begins with assumed premises. This is false. I can KNOW my proposition is true from the start! It is possible I can reason from assumptions.

I think there is some confusion here. In calling the first principles of logic "axioms" or acknowledging, as Aristotle did, that they are not susceptible to demonstration, we are not thereby suggesting that they are unreliable as principles, or that therefore you cannot know anything. Aristotle dismisses that idea in the passage I cited above. The principles are very much taken to be true and reliable, it's simply that the way in which we claim to know them to be true is sui generis. Again, the literal meaning of "axiom" is useful here. They are special principles precisely because they are "worthy" to be taken as true and reliable despite the impossibility of demonstration.
 

Logikal

Member
I need clarify some things. I do not desire to be quoted as saying axiom is an inappropriate term to use. I never said that. I expressed that math teaches students that ALL arguments have AXIOMS in them. This is wrong. I further state that is super easy to tell student that axioms are always there for the students to remember material. I would say only a small portion of students taking logic courses are actually Philosphy majors. That is most people are there because it is a stepping stone and a curriculum requirement in colleges in the U.S.A.
What I am expressing is half the people really don't care for the topic from the start and would rather be somewhere else if it were not for the said requirement. I further express that the instructor sees the lack of care in student and intentionally DUMBS THE MATERIAL DOWN. Why should he be specific and sound complex to people who really don't care? In this way you get taught material --you will likely forget in 30 days --quicker. There is a lack of quality in this kind of instruction. I was NOT taught in that manner. Material was taught in a standard way and at first glance seemed overly complexed. Why is the professor going so deep into detail as if someone's life was at stake? Professors like THIS were not LIKED and most students AVOID those types of instructors. People prefer the easy to the complex. Hence the teaching method changed to a lot being watered down to reduce student complaints! I mention this because you might have the watered down version of the terminology.

Knowledge in the passages you cite has multiple contexts. For one in the quote you used above is NOT IN REFERENCE to categorical logic but to epistemically knowledge: how humans know things in the world. One context is intellectual understanding of a concept called knowledge which is the epistemology part. The SECOND part is the LITERAL sense verification aka the SCIENCE part.
It is clear that most professional scientist use the term KNOWLEDGE to specifically require sense verification! If you don't have that you don't KNOW! For me to say to Laurence Kraus I know PHYSICS to him he will translate that practically that I AM LITERALLY PROFEICIENT at physics. If asks me 10 questions about Physics and I answer 6 out of the 10 wrongly he will conclude I DO NOT KNOW Physics. Perhaps I am aware of some principles and did a tiny bit of reading in Physics but I do not KNOW the topic. You can substitute any subject in place of physics. For the scientist or practical thinker you MUST use sense verification. It is NOT an option in order to say YOU KNOW x. Aristotle's seems to indicate this in your selected passage. therefore he uses a starting point because he is unsure of the truth value of a particular proposition. Hence why math teaches the first part of a conditional as a HYPOTHESES and not refer to the same part as the ANTECEDENT. The second portion of a conditional THEY teach students is THE CONCLUSION instead of calling it the CONSEQUENT. They are mixing modes or contexts. I have explained above argument with hidden premises exist and guess what they often utilize the form of IF . . . THEN in modern language. Some people have no clue a premise is MISSING in the said conditional. So it is technically to call the later part the conclusion to a conditional because a premise is MISSING. This is only accidental. Sometimes the conclusion is stated FIRST. So context is super important. Not all conditional statements are syllogisms, but most can be turned into a categorical syllogism. Hence using the term conclusion would be correct but the students are not told like I just described. They are told blindly the words after the THEN part is automatically the conclusion. No explanation to why it is called that but just out of the blue students remember that this called the conclusion.
do you see this about the method of instruction? Classic logic teaches concepts like propositions and other people water it down to declarative sentences.

The second context is an objective context that does not require sense verification for a proposition to hold a truth value. What is taught specifically in deductive logic class --- and not in the context of the real world--- is propositions have truth values of either true or false. The fact practical people can't deal with this is THE PROBLEM. They whine: "How am I supposed to know . . . ?" This is OFF TOPIC. Objective knowledge was the topic and "practical people" can't seem to stay on track but THROW in AWARENESS out of the blue. For instance, Many Christians have predicted the day Jesus will return. All have been wrong from the second the expression was given. I will make one now where you can't sense verify it anytime soon: Jesus will return to judge us all on May 22, 4729. This proposition OBJECTIVELY holds a truth value. Knowledge in the science sense, aka empirical sense, inductive sense, etc REQUIRES sense verification. Two different ways of thinking. Do you not see the difference? What I am expressing is that people MIX the two and use the same words in two distinct senses. Such terms are proposition, contraposition, SORITES, argument, axiom, deduction, conclusion, etc. I keep going back to how Boole and practical people star the proposition All unicorns are white animals is listed as UNTRUE simply BECUAE there is no SENSE VERIFICATION. He doesn't seem to understand the objective context of what propositions ARE. Would Plato say there is NO JUSTICE because he can't see it, hear it or etc? One is on a PHYSICAL realm and one is not. Do you not see the difference? objective things CAN BE verified and most predictions HAVE eventually been verified. We know after the proposition was made perhaps many many years later. If humans are around on May 23, 4729 they will be AWARE my proposition is false. It is not false because they are aware of it at that time.
 
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Logikal

Member
From your linked article http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-noncontradiction/

"The Peculiar Status of the Principle of Non-Contradiction

Aristotle says that PNC is one of the common axioms, axioms common to all the special sciences. It has no specific subject matter, but applies to everything that is. It is a first principle and also the firmest principle of all. Like modus ponens, as Lewis Carroll memorably showed, PNC does not function as a premise in any argument. Unlike modus ponens, PNC is not a rule of inference. Aristotle says that it is a principle which “is necessary for anyone to have who knows any of the things that are” (Metaph IV 3 1005b15). It is no mere hypothesis.
"​

Clearly shows that, Logikal's claim "Axiom has always been a MATH term. Never a logical term," is erroneous.

Nice to have these things set straight. :thumbsup:

You fail to recognize the context in the QUOTE above is about EMPERICAL knowledge and not about LOGIC or categorical syllogisms. I do believe the context I refer to was always logic NOT SCIENCE. The so called laws are true objectively regardless of subject. This does not mean there are no premises that necessitate the result which is a TRUE truth value. The definition of many logical terms necessitate the alleged LOGICAL LAWS. That is, there are true propositions that could prove the conclusions. These CAN BE SENSE verified. I did not say they MUST be.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You fail to recognize the context in the QUOTE above is about EMPERICAL knowledge and not about LOGIC or categorical syllogisms. I do believe the context I refer to was always logic NOT SCIENCE. The so called laws are true objectively regardless of subject. This does not mean there are no premises that necessitate the result which is a TRUE truth value. The definition of many logical terms necessitate the alleged LOGICAL LAWS. That is, there are true propositions that could prove the conclusions. These CAN BE SENSE verified. I did not say they MUST be.
From the same section of the linked article,(2. The Peculiar Status of the Principle of Non-Contradiction) two paragraphs down.

"Given the impossibility of deducing PNC from anything else, one might expect Aristotle to explain the peculiar status of PNC by comparing it with other logical principles that might be rivals for the title of the firmest first principle, for example his version of the law of excluded middle . . . .


For modern philosophers, it is still an interesting question whether PNC is prior to other principles of logic, or, indeed, to the notions of truth, reference and identity.
"
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does this require I use the original language?
When you make claims such as
When Aristotle used the term AXIOM he was talking specifically about GEOMETRY which is of course MATH
then you are either obviously wrong or should be able to refer to the terminology Aristotle ACTUALLY USED, particularly when you ask of others
Can you demonstrate Aristotle using the term AXIOM without talking about MATH

Why must it be your rules?
I didn't make any rules. You are the one asking another to demonstrate Aristotle's use of English terminology, whilst being incapable of demonstrating a knowledge even of English translations of Aristotle.
Can any concept be translated to express the same idea without a loss in meaning?
"But one has only to consider the case of an individual word-maison, say- to see at once that there cannot possibly be a single ‘deverbalised’ concept that corresponds exactly to a single word (house? home? Haus? Heim?) in other languages. Even if one allows that in a contextualised utterance – an instance of parole, such as all real life translation is concerned with, as opposed to langue- – the reference or denotation of the word maison will usually be unambiguous, it is still not possible to say that a single concept underlies the two words maison and, as the case may be, house or home, Haus or Heim, since our knowledge of the language systems (langues) concerned tells us that the concepts of seemingly corresponding terms in different languages are never fully congruent (unless, like scientific terms, defined in advance to be so) and this must remain true even in instances of the actual use of the terms in context.
Weston, M. (2003). “Meaning, Truth, and Morality in Translation.” In G. Anderman & M. Rogers (Eds.) Translation Today: Trends and Perspectives (pp. 140-151). Multilingual Matters.

"“It is difficult to find convincing examples of synonyms, because true synonyms are extremely rare, if they exist at all.”"
Atkins, B.T., & Rundell, Michael.. Oxford Guide to Practical Lexicography. Oxford University Press, 2008.

"Social meaning is what is conveyed about the social circumstances of the use of a word and is decoded “through our recognition of different dimensions and levels of style within the same language” (Leech 1983:14). That accounts for the observation that no true synonyms exist. But when the term “synonymy” is restricted to equivalence of conceptual meaning, then conceptual synonyms may be compared and found to be different non-conceptually from one another, e.g. stylistically, regionally, and in other aspects. "
Yong, Heming, Peng, Jing. (2007). Bilingual Lexicography from a Communicative Perspective. John Benjamins.

You seem not to think it cannot be done.
So does basically every translator of texts and so do most if not all linguists in a relevant field of linguistics.

Can you cite any sources that suggest logic was part of mathematics prior to the invention of Mathematical Logic which is only in 19 century?
The Greek for "mathematician", Russell's comment on Leibniz' 18th century formulation of mathematical logic, Leibniz formulation of mathematical logic, and the actual usage of "mathematics" and derivatives in the history of the English language:

1549 Bp. J. Hooper Declar. 10 Commandm. vi. 90 "Thowghe I..damne this damnable art Mathematicall, I do not damne souche other artes and sciences as be associatyd and annexid with this vnlawfull Astrologie."
1567 R. Mulcaster tr. J. Fortescue Learned Commendation Lawes Eng. f. 21v, "Thei are certein uniuersall propositions, which thei that be learned in the Lawes of Englande, likewise the Mathematicals do terme Maximes." (emphasis added)
1587 F. Thynne Ann. Scotl. 461/1 in Holinshed's Chron (new ed.) II "A learned man in all philosophie, astronomie and the other mathematiks."
1593 R. Hooker Of Lawes Eccl. Politie iii. viii. 143 "That Egyptian and Chaldæan wisedome Mathematicall, wherewith Moses and Daniell were furnished."
1726 Swift Gulliver I. i. i. 2 "Navigation, and other Parts of the Mathematicks, useful to those who intend to travel."
1785 T. Reid Ess. Intellect. Powers 607 "Mathematical notions are formed in the understanding by an abstraction of another kind, out of the rude perceptions of our senses."
(that "perception of our senses" bit reminds me of something:
The so called logical laws are SENSE VERIFIABLE!!
)[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
This is not a VALID method because you can not guarantee 100% results all the times you use this reasoning. Do predicates EVER correspond to their subjects? The proposition "All dogs are animals" does qualify with reality but the unicorn example does not. Do you not see the propositions have the SAME FORM or PATTERN visually? Clearly you must determine truth by the CONTENT of THAT particular proposition and NOT THE FORM which formal logic is said to do by form alone. It is clear that some propositions do not correspond to reality when expressing a term. Me stating some times in my life I play the piano is not so newsworthy. Humans want universal knowledge over nit picking trivial knowledge which is harder to retain. To learn which specific dog is an animal and have to recall which dog a person is referring to and then decide is that one an animal is making something simple way HARDER than need be. It is far easier to CLASSIFY universally. Universal claims that are true have priority over trivial claims.

What you are implying is that Modus Tollens isn’t valid because there is no way to tell if a form is valid (Modus Tollens

A therefore B

Not B

Therefore not A

Is all about form)

Similarly it’s like asking how do we know that A=A?

“Clearly you must determine truth by the content of that particular proposition and not the form which formal logic is said to do by form alone.”

Logikal

Logic never claimed that!

1. All dogs are mammals. ( must be true)

2. That is not a mammal. ( must be true)

For it to be true that,

3. Therefore that is not a dog.

The form proved that 3 is true ( if 1 and 2 are true)
 

Logikal

Member
What you are implying is that Modus Tollens isn’t valid because there is no way to tell if a form is valid (Modus Tollens

A therefore B

Not B

Therefore not A

Is all about form)

Similarly it’s like asking how do we know that A=A?

“Clearly you must determine truth by the content of that particular proposition and not the form which formal logic is said to do by form alone.”

Logikal

Logic never claimed that!

1. All dogs are mammals. ( must be true)

2. That is not a mammal. ( must be true)

For it to be true that,

3. Therefore that is not a dog.

The form proved that 3 is true ( if 1 and 2 are true)

You have misread. I never expressed "because I could not tell the truth of a proposition . . . "

I specifically stated that is how "practical people" think and such a method is used in the sciences. I know the logical rules of inference are valid because there are no instances of them being false as a truth table would demonstrate or a Venn Diagram would demonstrate. George Boole adopted the scientific aka practical approach. That is what I expressed. Logic claims that if I start with TRUE premises --not assumptions-- then it will be impossible for my conclusion to be false with CORRECT FORM. So I must have correct form AND KNOWN TRUE PREMISES. This guarantees error is impossible. This is how I was taught logic.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I need clarify some things. I do not desire to be quoted as saying axiom is an inappropriate term to use. I never said that.

I provided three distinct quotes in which you expressly stated that "axiom" is not a logical term and should not be used. You were quite insistent, and it was the only point you even attempted to make in your first three posts in the thread. When I attempted to clarify that our usage in this thread didn't refer to the technical math definition you rebuffed me. In my opinion, if you don't desire to be quoted as saying it then you probably should refrain from saying it. :) In any case, I'm happy to move on.

Knowledge in the passages you cite has multiple contexts. For one in the quote you used above is NOT IN REFERENCE to categorical logic but to epistemically knowledge

This distinction between empirical knowledge and logical knowledge (c.f. also post #50) is not one that Aristotle makes. In fact, as far as I can tell, Aristotle never refers to what we now call his "logic" as "logic" at all. But the passages I cited from Posterior Analytics make up part of what became known as the Organon ("instrument"), although that is also a term he did not use himself.

Aristotle's "instrument" is his logic, and all the texts I've quoted have been considered part of his logical works for 2000 years. The Metaphysics is not, as a whole, considered part of the Organon, but book 4 is very closely related to the subject of the posterior analytics. I also recommend you consult section 6 of this article:

"A demonstration (apodeixis) is “a deduction that produces knowledge”. Aristotle’s Posterior Analytics contains his account of demonstrations and their role in knowledge. From a modern perspective, we might think that this subject moves outside of logic to epistemology. From Aristotle’s perspective, however, the connection of the theory of sullogismoi with the theory of knowledge is especially close."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/#DemDemSci
Note that sullogismoi [syllogisms] is how Aristotle mostly refers to what we would tend to call his deductive logic. Another article:

"Aristotle wants to construct a logic that provides a working language for rigorous science as he understands it. Whereas we have been talking of syllogisms as arguments, Aristotelian science is about explanation. Admittedly, informal logicians generally distinguish between explanation and argument. An argument is intended to persuade about a debatable point; an explanation is not intended to persuade so much as to promote understanding. Aristotle views science as involving logical inferences that move beyond what is disputable to a consideration of what is the case.

Aristotle believes that knowledge, understood as justified true belief, is most perfectly expressed in a scientific demonstration (apodeixis), also known as an apodeitic or scientific syllogism. He posits a number of specific requirements for this most rigorous of all deductions. In order to qualify as a scientific demonstration, a syllogism must possess premises that are “true, primary, immediate, better known than, prior to, and causative of the conclusion.”"

http://www.iep.utm.edu/aris-log/#H12
In other words, the entire aim of Aristotle's logic is as a basis for "science" as he understands it, i.e in order to gain knowledge.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
On a different topic, I also want to go back to the idea of the first principles being "sense-verifiable", because in re-reading some of Posterior Analytics I think I understand now what you are referring to, and I think it just requires some clarification.

Posterior Analytics begins with the assertion that all instruction begins with preexisting knowledge, whether it's instruction in math, rhetoric, or deductive or inductive reasoning. (Note: this first sentence of the book also makes clear that it intends to speak of a topic that applies to both categorical logic and scientific induction, even though he often uses mathematical examples) He goes on to say that one of the kinds of preexisting knowledge is knowledge of premises, which are assumed without prior argument. ("In some cases admission of the fact must be assumed.")

As the book develops this idea of premises, and as it is further elaborated in book 4 of the Metaphysics, there is a division of premises into types, the first being the kinds of basic truths that are appropriate to some given field of study, and a second being "axioms" of the type we are discussing in this thread, i.e the law of non-contradiction and the law of identity. The first mention of this separation is in Posterior Analytics I,2:

"I call an immediate basic truth of syllogism a 'thesis' when, though it is not susceptible of proof by the teacher, yet ignorance of it does not constitute a total bar to progress on the part of the pupil: one which the pupil must know if he is to learn anything whatever is an axiom. I call it an axiom because there are such truths and we give them the name of axioms par excellence."​

Much of book 1 develops the idea of premises further, including the idea that the most basic truths can't be given demonstrations, and finally we arrive at the end of book 2, in part 19:

"As regards syllogism and demonstration, the definition of, and the conditions required to produce each of them, are now clear, and with that also the definition of, and the conditions required to produce, demonstrative knowledge, since it is the same as demonstration. As to the basic premises, how they become known and what is the developed state of knowledge of them is made clear by raising some preliminary problems.

We have already said that scientific knowledge through demonstration is impossible unless a man knows the primary immediate premises. But there are questions which might be raised in respect of the apprehension of these immediate premises: one might not only ask whether it is of the same kind as the apprehension of the conclusions, but also whether there is or is not scientific knowledge of both; or scientific knowledge of the latter, and of the former a different kind of knowledge; and, further, whether the developed states of knowledge are not innate but come to be in us, or are innate but at first unnoticed.

Now it is strange if we possess them from birth; for it means that we possess apprehensions more accurate than demonstration and fail to notice them. If on the other hand we acquire them and do not previously possess them, how could we apprehend and learn without a basis of preexistent knowledge? For that is impossible, as we used to find in the case of demonstration. So it emerges that neither can we possess them from birth, nor can they come to be in us if we are without knowledge of them to the extent of having no such developed state at all. Therefore we must possess a capacity of some sort, but not such as to rank higher in accuracy than these developed states. And this at least is an obvious characteristic of all animals, for they possess a congenital discriminative capacity which is called sense-perception. But though sense-perception is innate in all animals, in some the sense-impression comes to persist, in others it does not. So animals in which this persistence does not come to be have either no knowledge at all outside the act of perceiving, or no knowledge of objects of which no impression persists; animals in which it does come into being have perception and can continue to retain the sense-impression in the soul: and when such persistence is frequently repeated a further distinction at once arises between those which out of the persistence of such sense-impressions develop a power of systematizing them and those which do not.

So out of sense-perception comes to be what we call memory, and out of frequently repeated memories of the same thing develops experience; for a number of memories constitute a single experience. From experience again-i.e. from the universal now stabilized in its entirety within the soul, the one beside the many which is a single identity within them all-originate the skill of the craftsman and the knowledge of the man of science, skill in the sphere of coming to be and science in the sphere of being.

We conclude that these states of knowledge are neither innate in a determinate form, nor developed from other higher states of knowledge, but from sense-perception."​

It seems clear to me that this passage is what leads you (or whichever commenters you are relying on) to conclude that something like the PNC is known from sense-perception, but I think it oversimplifies Aristotle's view, for a few reasons:

1) Aristotle draws a distinction between axioms like the PNC and the kind of immediate premises being discussed here. The distinction is that of I,2 quoted before, elaborated further in Metaphysics book 4. Aristotle is something of an empiricist in this sense that he thinks the basic data of scientific investigation must be known by induction from sense-experience, but if you compare this passage to the discussion of the PNC in The Metaphysics (IV, 3), he appeals to no such inductive argument on its behalf, but states it as being necessary strictly on the grounds that without it no logic is possible. His brief treatment of the law of identity is similar. It follows from the fact that the metaphysics is the investigation into being qua being, and is therefore higher than and prior to the other sciences.

2) Aristotle's view of induction and sense-knowledge is not a pure empiricism, and shouldn't be read to imply that basic truths are directly experienced in Nature as such. His views are more complex, being in some sense a middle ground between the pure rationalism of the platonic forms and a pure empiricism. In Metaphysics IV,5 he deals with arguments against the PNC based on sense-experience, and in rejecting them makes clear he doesn't think that the PNC is known directly by the senses:

"Those who really feel the difficulties have been led to this opinion by observation of the sensible world. They think that contradictories or contraries are true at the same time, because they see contraries coming into existence out of the same thing. If, then, that which is not cannot come to be, the thing must have existed before as both contraries alike, as Anaxagoras says all is mixed in all, and Democritus too; for he says the void and the full exist alike in every part, and yet one of these is being, and the other non-being...

And in general it is because these thinkers suppose knowledge to be sensation, and this to be a physical alteration, that they say that what appears to our senses must be true; for it is for these reasons that both Empedocles and Democritus and, one may almost say, all the others have fallen victims to opinions of this sort...

But the reason why these thinkers held this opinion is that while they were inquiring into the truth of that which is, they thought, 'that which is' was identical with the sensible world; in this, however, there is largely present the nature of the indeterminate-of that which exists in the peculiar sense which we have explained; and therefore, while they speak plausibly, they do not say what is true...

Regarding the nature of truth, we must maintain that not everything which appears is true; firstly, because even if sensation-at least of the object peculiar to the sense in question-is not false, still appearance is not the same as sensation.

And, in general, if only the sensible exists, there would be nothing if animate things were not; for there would be no faculty of sense. Now the view that neither the sensible qualities nor the sensations would exist is doubtless true (for they are affections of the perceiver), but that the substrata which cause the sensation should not exist even apart from sensation is impossible. For sensation is surely not the sensation of itself, but there is something beyond the sensation, which must be prior to the sensation; for that which moves is prior in nature to that which is moved, and if they are correlative terms, this is no less the case."​

Here, Aristotle is arguing directly against a kind of pure empiricism, and that "prior to sensation" in his view is nous, mind, which must be understood in relation to Plato as a faculty which is prior to and "higher" than the sensible world, but through which we have the capacity to grasp both universals and through pure reason to apprehend principles like the PNC. If we go back to Prior Analytics II,19, which I quoted above, it concludes with this text:

"Let us now restate the account given already, though with insufficient clearness. When one of a number of logically indiscriminable particulars has made a stand, the earliest universal is present in the soul: for though the act of sense-perception is of the particular, its content is universal-is man, for example, not the man Callias. A fresh stand is made among these rudimentary universals, and the process does not cease until the indivisible concepts, the true universals, are established: e.g. such and such a species of animal is a step towards the genus animal, which by the same process is a step towards a further generalization.

Thus it is clear that we must get to know the primary premisses by induction; for the method by which even sense-perception implants the universal is inductive. Now of the thinking states by which we grasp truth, some are unfailingly true, others admit of error-opinion, for instance, and calculation, whereas scientific knowing and intuition are always true: further, no other kind of thought except intuition is more accurate than scientific knowledge"​

The word translated as "intuition" is a reference to this capacity of nous. While sense experience and induction play a crucial role in knowledge, the knowledge of the "earliest universal" is present in the soul through intuition. Without sense experience we could not connect the universal with the particular, but the apprehension of the universal depends also on the apprehension of nous via intuition, which is more reliable than scientific knowledge through induction. So that the basic premises of a science may arise through sense experience, but the PNC or the law of identity are different, being the sort of necessary, universal and immutable truths which must be apprehended through intuition alone.

This is why I think it's wrong to say that, to Aristotle, these first principles are "sense-verifiable".
 

allfoak

Alchemist
How would you describe true/truth?


Gospel of the Nazirene

Chapter 90:
What is Truth


What, then, is Truth?"

2. And as they were speaking Yeshua appeared in their midst and said, "Truth, one and absolute, is in God alone, for no man, neither any body of men, knows that which God alone knows, who is the All in All. To men is truth revealed, according to their capacity to understand and receive."

10. "God gives you all truth, as a ladder with many steps, for the salvation and perfection of the soul, and the truth which seems today, you will abandon for the higher truth tomorrow. Press toward perfection."


diamond.jpg


 

Logikal

Member
On a different topic, I also want to go back to the idea of the first principles being "sense-verifiable", because in re-reading some of Posterior Analytics I think I understand now what you are referring to, and I think it just requires some clarification.

Posterior Analytics begins with the assertion that all instruction begins with preexisting knowledge, whether it's instruction in math, rhetoric, or deductive or inductive reasoning. (Note: this first sentence of the book also makes clear that it intends to speak of a topic that applies to both categorical logic and scientific induction, even though he often uses mathematical examples) He goes on to say that one of the kinds of preexisting knowledge is knowledge of premises, which are assumed without prior argument. ("In some cases admission of the fact must be assumed.")

As the book develops this idea of premises, and as it is further elaborated in book 4 of the Metaphysics, there is a division of premises into types, the first being the kinds of basic truths that are appropriate to some given field of study, and a second being "axioms" of the type we are discussing in this thread, i.e the law of non-contradiction and the law of identity. The first mention of this separation is in Posterior Analytics I,2:

"I call an immediate basic truth of syllogism a 'thesis' when, though it is not susceptible of proof by the teacher, yet ignorance of it does not constitute a total bar to progress on the part of the pupil: one which the pupil must know if he is to learn anything whatever is an axiom. I call it an axiom because there are such truths and we give them the name of axioms par excellence."​

Much of book 1 develops the idea of premises further, including the idea that the most basic truths can't be given demonstrations, and finally we arrive at the end of book 2, in part 19:

"As regards syllogism and demonstration, the definition of, and the conditions required to produce each of them, are now clear, and with that also the definition of, and the conditions required to produce, demonstrative knowledge, since it is the same as demonstration. As to the basic premises, how they become known and what is the developed state of knowledge of them is made clear by raising some preliminary problems.

We have already said that scientific knowledge through demonstration is impossible unless a man knows the primary immediate premises. But there are questions which might be raised in respect of the apprehension of these immediate premises: one might not only ask whether it is of the same kind as the apprehension of the conclusions, but also whether there is or is not scientific knowledge of both; or scientific knowledge of the latter, and of the former a different kind of knowledge; and, further, whether the developed states of knowledge are not innate but come to be in us, or are innate but at first unnoticed.

Now it is strange if we possess them from birth; for it means that we possess apprehensions more accurate than demonstration and fail to notice them. If on the other hand we acquire them and do not previously possess them, how could we apprehend and learn without a basis of preexistent knowledge? For that is impossible, as we used to find in the case of demonstration. So it emerges that neither can we possess them from birth, nor can they come to be in us if we are without knowledge of them to the extent of having no such developed state at all. Therefore we must possess a capacity of some sort, but not such as to rank higher in accuracy than these developed states. And this at least is an obvious characteristic of all animals, for they possess a congenital discriminative capacity which is called sense-perception. But though sense-perception is innate in all animals, in some the sense-impression comes to persist, in others it does not. So animals in which this persistence does not come to be have either no knowledge at all outside the act of perceiving, or no knowledge of objects of which no impression persists; animals in which it does come into being have perception and can continue to retain the sense-impression in the soul: and when such persistence is frequently repeated a further distinction at once arises between those which out of the persistence of such sense-impressions develop a power of systematizing them and those which do not.

So out of sense-perception comes to be what we call memory, and out of frequently repeated memories of the same thing develops experience; for a number of memories constitute a single experience. From experience again-i.e. from the universal now stabilized in its entirety within the soul, the one beside the many which is a single identity within them all-originate the skill of the craftsman and the knowledge of the man of science, skill in the sphere of coming to be and science in the sphere of being.

We conclude that these states of knowledge are neither innate in a determinate form, nor developed from other higher states of knowledge, but from sense-perception."​

It seems clear to me that this passage is what leads you (or whichever commenters you are relying on) to conclude that something like the PNC is known from sense-perception, but I think it oversimplifies Aristotle's view, for a few reasons:

1) Aristotle draws a distinction between axioms like the PNC and the kind of immediate premises being discussed here. The distinction is that of I,2 quoted before, elaborated further in Metaphysics book 4. Aristotle is something of an empiricist in this sense that he thinks the basic data of scientific investigation must be known by induction from sense-experience, but if you compare this passage to the discussion of the PNC in The Metaphysics (IV, 3), he appeals to no such inductive argument on its behalf, but states it as being necessary strictly on the grounds that without it no logic is possible. His brief treatment of the law of identity is similar. It follows from the fact that the metaphysics is the investigation into being qua being, and is therefore higher than and prior to the other sciences.

2) Aristotle's view of induction and sense-knowledge is not a pure empiricism, and shouldn't be read to imply that basic truths are directly experienced in Nature as such. His views are more complex, being in some sense a middle ground between the pure rationalism of the platonic forms and a pure empiricism. In Metaphysics IV,5 he deals with arguments against the PNC based on sense-experience, and in rejecting them makes clear he doesn't think that the PNC is known directly by the senses:

"Those who really feel the difficulties have been led to this opinion by observation of the sensible world. They think that contradictories or contraries are true at the same time, because they see contraries coming into existence out of the same thing. If, then, that which is not cannot come to be, the thing must have existed before as both contraries alike, as Anaxagoras says all is mixed in all, and Democritus too; for he says the void and the full exist alike in every part, and yet one of these is being, and the other non-being...

And in general it is because these thinkers suppose knowledge to be sensation, and this to be a physical alteration, that they say that what appears to our senses must be true; for it is for these reasons that both Empedocles and Democritus and, one may almost say, all the others have fallen victims to opinions of this sort...

But the reason why these thinkers held this opinion is that while they were inquiring into the truth of that which is, they thought, 'that which is' was identical with the sensible world; in this, however, there is largely present the nature of the indeterminate-of that which exists in the peculiar sense which we have explained; and therefore, while they speak plausibly, they do not say what is true...

Regarding the nature of truth, we must maintain that not everything which appears is true; firstly, because even if sensation-at least of the object peculiar to the sense in question-is not false, still appearance is not the same as sensation.

And, in general, if only the sensible exists, there would be nothing if animate things were not; for there would be no faculty of sense. Now the view that neither the sensible qualities nor the sensations would exist is doubtless true (for they are affections of the perceiver), but that the substrata which cause the sensation should not exist even apart from sensation is impossible. For sensation is surely not the sensation of itself, but there is something beyond the sensation, which must be prior to the sensation; for that which moves is prior in nature to that which is moved, and if they are correlative terms, this is no less the case."​

Here, Aristotle is arguing directly against a kind of pure empiricism, and that "prior to sensation" in his view is nous, mind, which must be understood in relation to Plato as a faculty which is prior to and "higher" than the sensible world, but through which we have the capacity to grasp both universals and through pure reason to apprehend principles like the PNC. If we go back to Prior Analytics II,19, which I quoted above, it concludes with this text:

"Let us now restate the account given already, though with insufficient clearness. When one of a number of logically indiscriminable particulars has made a stand, the earliest universal is present in the soul: for though the act of sense-perception is of the particular, its content is universal-is man, for example, not the man Callias. A fresh stand is made among these rudimentary universals, and the process does not cease until the indivisible concepts, the true universals, are established: e.g. such and such a species of animal is a step towards the genus animal, which by the same process is a step towards a further generalization.

Thus it is clear that we must get to know the primary premisses by induction; for the method by which even sense-perception implants the universal is inductive. Now of the thinking states by which we grasp truth, some are unfailingly true, others admit of error-opinion, for instance, and calculation, whereas scientific knowing and intuition are always true: further, no other kind of thought except intuition is more accurate than scientific knowledge"​

The word translated as "intuition" is a reference to this capacity of nous. While sense experience and induction play a crucial role in knowledge, the knowledge of the "earliest universal" is present in the soul through intuition. Without sense experience we could not connect the universal with the particular, but the apprehension of the universal depends also on the apprehension of nous via intuition, which is more reliable than scientific knowledge through induction. So that the basic premises of a science may arise through sense experience, but the PNC or the law of identity are different, being the sort of necessary, universal and immutable truths which must be apprehended through intuition alone.

This is why I think it's wrong to say that, to Aristotle, these first principles are "sense-verifiable".

Thanks for the detailed response. I think we agree on something's but perhaps I am doing a poor job of communicating my ideas. I agree with your analysis above in the sense Aristotle seems to express TWO distinct methods of knowledge: the senses and the mind as you indicate. Aristotle divided logic into to basically a similar category: major logic and Minor logic. On is FORMAL logic which is the sense verification side of logic and then there is what Catholics called MATERIAL LOGIC which dealt with the mind; the mind portion deals with knowledge and that is now called Epistemology. So I think we are on the same wave length about there being a physical sense verifiable side and a MENTAL / Intellectual side.

I refer to the concepts Aristotle exressed not specifically to what he did write in his words literally. Aristotle was more into the physical than Plato was. So I would ask you if Aristotle had a single instance of one of the logical laws being physically untrue he would keep them? I say , NO. What I am getting at is the conceptual side often is universal and carries over to the physical side as do the logical laws. Had there been one single instance that busted any of the laws in his life time Aristotle would reject that law and they would not be axioms. They are axioms because there were no false instances of the logical laws in reality. This is what I meant by sense verifiable. You cannot find any false cases given the correct context of the terms. No one could back then either. There had to be a category to place them in an Aristotle chose an existing term AXIOM which FITS.
My instance on the term AXIOM being the wrong term is for several reasons which I stated. So in sum of my comments about AXIOM were that the term AXIOM is taught to many as all syllogism begin with axioms. This is false. Aristotle stated that emperical knowledge is possible and we can know from the start a premise is true. I have run into SO MANY people who said logic begins with an assumption in every syllogism. This is a Boolean approach and not Aristotelian. This is where I got AXIOM is a math term. Historically it is true because Aristotle knew the term from Euclid. The method that instructors of Math are usually the people who teach this method. This method is called MATHEMATICAL LOGIC and is taught differently then what a Philosophy professor would teach. My point was that the teaching METHOD was NOT the Same. The terminology does NOT carry over seamlessly. In math their version of CONTRAPOSITION is NOT what Aristotle defined for instance. Math is symbol manipulation, whereas Aristotle used prose and makes a huge difference. Proposition is used differently. Argument is used differently and so on. You can tell a tree by its fruit. The fruit here is the METHOD of who And what department is doing the teaching. They all refer to LOGIC which is CONFUSING. MATHEMATICAL LOGIC should be specifically specified and not use LOGIC. The methods are NOT identical.
 
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Deidre

Well-Known Member
There is objective truth, and there is subjective truth. Perhaps life should be a combination of the two?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Aristotle divided logic into to basically a similar category: major logic and Minor logic.

Can you cite a text where he does this? I've not encountered the terms "major" and "minor" used in Aristotelian logic except in reference to "major" and "minor" premises of a syllogism.

So I would ask you if Aristotle had a single instance of one of the logical laws being physically untrue he would keep them?

In Posterior Analytics II,19 he explicitly declares the intuition of the mind to be more reliable than induction from sensory experience. In Metaphysics IV,5 he argues against those who use sensory experience to invalidate the PNC. In both cases, in relying on the prior and higher validity of intuition, he's not thinking in the way you are asserting here. He's saying to Protagoras et al that even when sense experience seems to invalidate PNC, nevertheless its truth is known by the higher faculty of nous. I don't really see any evidence that he considered its truth to hinge on experience of the physical world in the way you are arguing.

My instance on the term AXIOM being the wrong term is for several reasons which I stated. So in sum of my comments about AXIOM were that the term AXIOM is taught to many as all syllogism begin with axioms. This is false.

It remains the case, however, that axiom was not the wrong term for this thread. For one thing, we weren't discussing whether or not all syllogisms begin with "axioms", but rather the transcendental argument for God as it was put to the OP, which is not a question of the nature of premises in a syllogism but a question about the foundations of all logical reasoning. TAG explicitly deals with principles like the law of identity mentioned in the OP, and the principle of non-contradiction, and those principles are indeed called axioms, both by Aristotle and later philosophy. You recall you asked if I could cite Aristotle ever using the term in a non-mathematical way. I've done more than that, I've cited him using it to discuss the very principles which are the subject of this thread. You may certainly be correct that in some context someone, somewhere, might use "axiom" when they just mean "premise", but in this particular thread our usage of "axiom" is correct.

This is where I got AXIOM is a math term. Historically it is true because Aristotle knew the term from Euclid.

It is certainly true that the math usage is older than Aristotle, but he extended the term to apply to his methods, in a straightforward and useful way. I don't think the rest of your commentary on how logic is taught is relevant to the original topic of the thread.
 
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