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What is materialism?

Yerda

Veteran Member
How is mind substance? What sort of substance is it?
I'm not sure that it is.

As far as I can tell the famous dead guys think it is. You could try reading their stuff. Descartes Meditations are not bad in bits (that is the bits I could follow) and Spinoza sounds really interesting though I haven't got round to starting on him. Berkeley apparently argued that reality consists entirely of minds and the ideas contained within.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I'm not sure that it is.

As far as I can tell the famous dead guys think it is. You could try reading their stuff. Descartes Meditations are not bad in bits (that is the bits I could follow) and Spinoza sounds really interesting though I haven't got round to starting on him. Berkeley apparently argued that reality consists entirely of minds and the ideas contained within.
I have read those sources, I don't think they ever give an explanation. The idea of some substance that is not material is a contradiction in terms never addressed by those positing such a substance.
I do appreciate your engaging with me on this. As I see it materialism is charged with rejecting the existence of a 'substance' that is not substantial and can not even be clearly described - let alone evidenced.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Why did you attribute that position to materialists then?

Check your posts.
There was #157 in the thread 'The death of atheism soundwaves look like Hebrew letters'
And of course; #155.
What I said was......A materialist rejects the very concept of spirits.

That just means they reject the concept of a being with no physical body (not that the concept itself does not exist). Materialists believe the concept exists but reject it. Understand?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
What I said was......A materialist rejects the very concept of spirits.

That just means they reject the concept of a being with no physical body (not that the concept itself does not exist). Materialists believe the concept exists but reject it. Understand?
So when you say that materialists reject the very concept of spirits, you don't mean that they reject the concept of spirits? Ok.

Why would you think materialism rejects a concept?
What being has no material body?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
We all reject concepts that we disagree with.
I don't even know what you mean by that. I think it is the explanation of ghostly phenomenon (that they are non-physical beings) that is being questioned, not that there is a phenomenon being observed.
A spirit. A ghost.
Well ok. That would make sense if you could establish that a spirit or ghost was a being. I can't see how you could be certain of that. Spirits and, ghosts may not be beings, and so their existence does not challenge materialism.

How do you know they are beings?
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
George-ananda

Materialism does not reject any concept, it just does not start from the assumption that Ghosts, spirits and so on are beings.
This is essentially how science came to be - long ago people attributed all manner of unexplained phenomena to beings. As we have learned we have found natural explanations for many of them, from lightning to birth.
Materialism does not reject any such concept, it just opens a door through which they can be further explored by not assuming that there is a being causing it.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Indeed. Which is why I wanted to explore why some think it does.

There were a number of implications to Materialism that meant it was a deeply heretical ideas during the enlightenment. From what I can tell, it is excluded from the enlightenment as a school of thought by some historicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_materialism

It's not an area I know well, but one I've looked into in recent weeks as an early influence on Marxist belief. I'm just going to copy and paste some stuff from Wikipedia, to give you an idea of what its like. it is the sheer radicalism of materialism that means it is somewhat taboo, even before Marx, because of how far it went to reject theological understanding of man and morality. They might not sound so radical now, but this was pre-Darwin and the evolution/creation controversy in the 1740's. Christianity was still dominant along with the belief in the soul, original sin, etc.

I believe many Conservative Christians would argue that the libertinism of materialism, and its hedonistic imperative led to the ideas of the Marquis de Sade, (who is sort of a spectre in the background when you're challaging christian morality and became a by-word for evil and sexual perversion and gratiutious violence in sadism) but there isn't an obvious relationship beyond the affirmation of sexual desire/perversion as natural and the implications it has for morality.

Below is just one example, but materialism represents a series of challanges to Christian morality.

Julien Offray de La Mettrie is best known for his work L'homme machine ("Machine Man" or "The Human Mechanism").

Man and the animal
Prior to Man a Machine he published The Natural History of the Soul in 1745. He argued that humans were just complex animals. A great deal of controversy emerged due to his belief that “from animals to man there is no abrupt transition”. He later built of that idea claiming that humans and animals were composed of organized matter. He believed that humans and animals were only different in regards to the complexity that matter was organized. He compared the differences between man and animal to those of high quality pendulum clocks and watches stating: "[Man] is to the ape, and to the most intelligent animals, as the planetary pendulum of Huyghens is to a watch of Julien Leroy.". The idea that essentially no real difference between humans and animals existed was based on his findings that sensory feelings were present in animals and plants. While he did recognize that only humans spoke a language, he thought that animals were capable of learning a language. He used apes as an example, stating that if they were trained they would be “perfect [men]”. He further expressed his ideas that man was not very different from animals by suggesting that we learn through imitation as do animals.

His beliefs about humans and animals were based on two types of continuity. The first being weak continuity, suggesting that humans and animals are made of the same things but are organized differently. His main emphasis however was on strong continuity, the idea that the psychology and behavior between humans and animals was not all that different.

Man a Machine
La Mettrie believed that man worked like a machine due to mental thoughts depending on bodily actions. He then argued that the organization of matter at a high and complex level resulted in human thought. He did not believe in the existence of God. He rather chose to argue that the organization of humans was done to provide the best use of complex matter as possible.

La Mettrie arrived at this belief after finding that his bodily and mental illnesses were associated with each other. After gathering enough evidence, in medical and psychological fields, he published the book.

Some of the evidence La Mettrie presented was disregarded due to the nature of it. He argued that events such as a beheaded chicken running around or a recently removed heart of an animal still working proved the connection between the brain and the body. While theories did build off La Mettrie's, his works were not necessarily scientific. Rather, his writings were controversial and defiant.

Human nature
He further expressed his radical beliefs by asserting himself as a determinist, dismissing the use of judges. He disagreed with Christian beliefs and emphasized the importance of going after sensual pleasure, a hedonistic approach to human behavior. He further looked at human behavior by questioning the belief that humans have a higher sense of morality than animals. He noted that animals rarely tortured each other and argued that some animals were capable of some level of morality. He believed that as machines, humans would follow the law of nature and ignore their own interests for those of others.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
There were a number of implications to Materialism that meant it was a deeply heretical ideas during the enlightenment. From what I can tell, it is excluded from the enlightenment as a school of thought by some historicans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_materialism

It's not an area I know well, but one I've looked into in recent weeks as an early influence on Marxist belief. I'm just going to copy and paste some stuff from Wikipedia, to give you an idea of what its like. it is the sheer radicalism of materialism that means it is somewhat taboo, even before Marx, because of how far it went to reject theological understanding of man and morality. They might not sound so radical now, but this was pre-Darwin and the evolution/creation controversy in the 1740's. Christianity was still dominant along with the belief in the soul, original sin, etc.

I believe many Conservative Christians would argue that the libertinism of materialism, and its hedonistic imperative led to the ideas of the Marquis de Sade, (who is sort of a spectre in the background when you're challaging christian morality and became a by-word for evil and sexual perversion and gratiutious violence in sadism) but there isn't an obvious relationship beyond the affirmation of sexual desire/perversion as natural and the implications it has for morality.

Below is just one example, but materialism represents a series of challanges to Christian morality.

Julien Offray de La Mettrie is best known for his work L'homme machine ("Machine Man" or "The Human Mechanism").

Man and the animal
Prior to Man a Machine he published The Natural History of the Soul in 1745. He argued that humans were just complex animals. A great deal of controversy emerged due to his belief that “from animals to man there is no abrupt transition”. He later built of that idea claiming that humans and animals were composed of organized matter. He believed that humans and animals were only different in regards to the complexity that matter was organized. He compared the differences between man and animal to those of high quality pendulum clocks and watches stating: "[Man] is to the ape, and to the most intelligent animals, as the planetary pendulum of Huyghens is to a watch of Julien Leroy.". The idea that essentially no real difference between humans and animals existed was based on his findings that sensory feelings were present in animals and plants. While he did recognize that only humans spoke a language, he thought that animals were capable of learning a language. He used apes as an example, stating that if they were trained they would be “perfect [men]”. He further expressed his ideas that man was not very different from animals by suggesting that we learn through imitation as do animals.

His beliefs about humans and animals were based on two types of continuity. The first being weak continuity, suggesting that humans and animals are made of the same things but are organized differently. His main emphasis however was on strong continuity, the idea that the psychology and behavior between humans and animals was not all that different.

Man a Machine
La Mettrie believed that man worked like a machine due to mental thoughts depending on bodily actions. He then argued that the organization of matter at a high and complex level resulted in human thought. He did not believe in the existence of God. He rather chose to argue that the organization of humans was done to provide the best use of complex matter as possible.

La Mettrie arrived at this belief after finding that his bodily and mental illnesses were associated with each other. After gathering enough evidence, in medical and psychological fields, he published the book.

Some of the evidence La Mettrie presented was disregarded due to the nature of it. He argued that events such as a beheaded chicken running around or a recently removed heart of an animal still working proved the connection between the brain and the body. While theories did build off La Mettrie's, his works were not necessarily scientific. Rather, his writings were controversial and defiant.

Human nature
He further expressed his radical beliefs by asserting himself as a determinist, dismissing the use of judges. He disagreed with Christian beliefs and emphasized the importance of going after sensual pleasure, a hedonistic approach to human behavior. He further looked at human behavior by questioning the belief that humans have a higher sense of morality than animals. He noted that animals rarely tortured each other and argued that some animals were capable of some level of morality. He believed that as machines, humans would follow the law of nature and ignore their own interests for those of others.
What can I say?
Fantastic work, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Your reference to Le Matre was fascinating - isn't that the same priest who came up with the Big Bang theory?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What can I say?
Fantastic work, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Your welcome. Just glad to be useful. :)

Your reference to Le Matre was fascinating - isn't that the same priest who came up with the Big Bang theory?

I had to look it up as the origin of the universe is a subject that comes up in materialism on and off given the they reject creationism. There was a Georges Lemaitre who proposed the theory of the expansion of the universe in 1927 (thought it's wrongly credited to Edwin Hubble). so I think it's safe to say it's a different person.
 

Jeremy Taylor

Active Member
Terms like materialism, naturalism, and physicalism are slippery. Materialism means the reduction of everything to matter, but then there are conflicting debates on what counts as matter. Physicalism reduces all things, ultimately, to the entities studied by modern science, but these can change.

What doesn't fit into materialism (or naturalism or physicalism) is at the heart of the issue. Really, in the end, what all these terms express (with qualifications when it comes to physicalism) is opposition to generally supernatural and idealist positions. Materialism tends to refer to a stricter, more absolute variety of this kind of position, whereas naturalism can be a little more tolerant around the edges.
 
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Jeremy Taylor

Active Member
Who in their right mind would ever think 'the concept of God' does not exist??

Eliminative materialists, I suppose do not, but I think it might be stretching it to say they are in their right mind.

You don't mean it in this way, but materialism and even naturalism have generally had a hard time explaining the existence of abstract concepts.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Your welcome. Just glad to be useful. :)



I had to look it up as the origin of the universe is a subject that comes up in materialism on and off given the they reject creationism. There was a Georges Lemaitre who proposed the theory of the expansion of the universe in 1927 (thought it's wrongly credited to Edwin Hubble). so I think it's safe to say it's a different person.
Awesome. And again, welcome to rf.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Eliminative materialists, I suppose do not, but I think it might be stretching it to say they are in their right mind.

You don't mean it in this way, but materialism and even naturalism have generally had a hard time explaining the existence of abstract concepts.
How so? How could the abstract need an explanation that is challenging for materialism? How could that happen?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Terms like materialism, naturalism, and physicalism are slippery. Materialism means the reduction of everything to matter, but then there are conflicting debates on what counts as matter. Physicalism reduces all things, ultimately, to the entities studied by modern science, but these can change.

What doesn't fit into materialism (or naturalism or physicalism) is at the heart of the issue. Really, in the end, all these terms really express (with qualifications when it comes to physicalism) is opposition to generally supernatural and idealist positions. Materialism tends to refer to a stricter, more absolute variety of this kind of position, whereas naturalism can be a little more tolerant around the edges.
Thanks Jeremy.
 
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