To loose the meaning

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

While reading some indian newpaper, I came across an article talking about the lots of conversions of Hindus to Islam in Maharastra (especially Mumbai).

Now now this is not the aim of this thread and I do not wish to see a hindu vs muslim bash fest, please bear that in mind before replying.

A few of these converts were asked how and why they left Hinduism, and some answers were really surprising to me:

Many of these converts mention that even before such encounters, they had harboured doubts about the rationality of idol worship. It seems odd however, that even a teenager, with seven to eight years of education, would consider an idol to be god. By that age, one knows that idols are just a symbol of divinity.

But once these doubts took root in them, what definitely helped in these youngsters' journey away from the religion they were born in, were the answers to their questions given by their parents, who like most Hindus, weren't overly religious. "This is how it's always been" was the stock answer; its meaninglessness compounded by their parents' ignorance of the meaning of the mantras they recited daily.

This part stood off the entire article to me, why ? Because Sanatan Dharma is a religion that is full of meaning, should it be hidden or obvious, pretty much everything has a meaning. From the layout of the simplest shrine to the offering of a coconut or the specific chanting of a mantra. Everything.

Yet many Hindus doesn't seems to know... And it's true that I've been given a lot of this answer in France and in India too: "it's tradition", "I don't know, it was always like this".

Hindus actually drop Sanatan Dharma because they think they accomplish meaninglessly puja, they do meaningless gestures and offer meaningless things to the temple, they recite meaningless mantras and welcome once a year a meaningless statue that ends up meaninglessly wrecked on a shore. They turn toward other religions because they see a meaning in them that they have lost in their own.

While everyone is absolutely free to make their own choices for their religious path in their life, I do find it sad to see that many of our brothers, sisters and traditions loose their meaning.

What are your thoughts on this subject ?
Is any initiative to educate all Hindus about their own traditions and religion even possible, considering how large and diverse our religion is ?
Do you think this loss or forgetfulness of meaning in aspects of our religion in our daily life can lead to a problem, especially in India ? (ex. loss of entire sampraday, disappearance of some practices, mass conversions etc... ? )

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Vanakkam,

While reading some indian newpaper, I came across an article talking about the lots of conversions of Hindus to Islam in Maharastra (especially Mumbai).

Now now this is not the aim of this thread and I do not wish to see a hindu vs muslim bash fest, please bear that in mind before replying.

A few of these converts were asked how and why they left Hinduism, and some answers were really surprising to me:



This part stood off the entire article to me, why ? Because Sanatan Dharma is a religion that is full of meaning, should it be hidden or obvious, pretty much everything has a meaning. From the layout of the simplest shrine to the offering of a coconut or the specific chanting of a mantra. Everything.

Yet many Hindus doesn't seems to know... And it's true that I've been given a lot of this answer in France and in India too: "it's tradition", "I don't know, it was always like this".

Hindus actually drop Sanatan Dharma because they think they accomplish meaninglessly puja, they do meaningless gestures and offer meaningless things to the temple, they recite meaningless mantras and welcome once a year a meaningless statue that ends up meaninglessly wrecked on a shore. They turn toward other religions because they see a meaning in them that they have lost in their own.

While everyone is absolutely free to make their own choices for their religious path in their life, I do find it sad to see that many of our brothers, sisters and traditions loose their meaning.

What are your thoughts on this subject ?
Is any initiative to educate all Hindus about their own traditions and religion even possible, considering how large and diverse our religion is ?
Do you think this loss or forgetfulness of meaning in aspects of our religion in our daily life can lead to a problem, especially in India ? (ex. loss of entire sampraday, disappearance of some practices, mass conversions etc... ? )

Aum Namah Shivaya

Honestly, this is probable THE reason anyone leaves their birth religion. Religion has to be relevant to the individual. It has to have meaning. And it's not something that's intuitive. Of course people will abandon a faith they don't understand or see meaning in. It is right that they should because to worship without sincerity is nothing but mechanical re-enactment. I have seen temples in the US trying to counter this by offering religion classes to the children in the community with the aim of teaching the meanings of the mantras and the rituals. I think that's an important first step. But if parents don't know why they are doing a particular thing, that is going to have a lasting effect on a child.

 

[Vinayaka]

Jaya, I think it is 'taking it for granted' syndrome, and applied to many facets of life. People don't make the connection that meat comes from animals, that taxes pay for services like police and roads, and more. So take that disconnect applied over a few centuries and you get rituals that all appear meaningless, even to the priests some days.

I think the solution is to be the other way, as individuals. Set examples by sincerity, by explaining to the youth, by taking it upon ourselves to learn more, by dialogue whenever possible, and certainly not by shunning our responsibility to pass it on. We western Hindus can be examples of the faith in our sincerity, our love, our humanity. Be role models, so even if those kids don't get it from their parents, that can at least learn it from people like you.

It may take a very long time, but that's the trend we have to set, for ourselves, and for future generations.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Jaya, I think it is 'taking it for granted' syndrome, and applied to many facets of life. People don't make the connection that meat comes from animals, that taxes pay for services like police and roads, and more. So take that disconnect applied over a few centuries and you get rituals that all appear meaningless, even to the priests some days.

I think the solution is to be the other way, as individuals. Set examples by sincerity, by explaining to the youth, by taking it upon ourselves to learn more, by dialogue whenever possible, and certainly not by shunning our responsibility to pass it on. We western Hindus can be examples of the faith in our sincerity, our love, our humanity. Be role models, so even if those kids don't get it from their parents, that can at least learn it from people like you.

It may take a very long time, but that's the trend we have to set, for ourselves, and for future generations.

Also, to add to this, I think it's important for adults to admit when they don't know something. We need to be humble enough to admit that we might not understand something fully and then make a commitment to finding out and learning more. In fact, have a child ask you a question you don't know the answer could be a wonderful opportunity to bond over the act of learning about it together. "You know, I don't know what that mantra means - lets find out!"

 

[Vinayaka]

Also, to add to this, I think it's important for adults to admit when they don't know something. We need to be humble enough to admit that we might not understand something fully and then make a commitment to finding out and learning more. In fact, have a child ask you a question you don't know the answer could be a wonderful opportunity to bond over the act of learning about it together. "You know, I don't know what that mantra means - lets find out!"

So true. It's impossible to know it all, especially in the multi-sect, multi-linguistic, western Hindu groups we see today. Often it might mean 2 or 3 different answers on different levels. It takes a lot of tact as well, and the last thing we want to be doing is undermining and contradicting parents. We always need to preface it with, 'This is my understanding,' and stuff like that.

 

[SomeRandom]

Funnily enough, that's why I joined RF in the first place. And it's something I have always struggled with.
My mother is very sincere but ignorant of her own traditions. She normally shrugs off many (not all) of my questions as "Sorry, I'm not sure why it's like that. It's just how it is." And Dad, well he couldn't help. Christian, I think or Catholic not sure, raised Agnostic Aussie.
Tradition tradition tradition. It's ultimately a hollow answer. But it's such a big focus in Hinduism as a whole. Tradition is to be observed, it's a matter of honour, of duty and responsibility. And when that is the very underpinning of your entire philosophy, is it any wonder that knowledge has eroded to the degree it has?
It's all very well for some to just follow tradition out of their Dharma, to their family, to themselves or to their God/s. And if that satisfies them, so be it.
But in today's world, especially if you've grown up in it, it's not enough anymore. I want to know why coconuts are important, I want to know why we use Sanskrit in prayer when barely anyone around here even knows what it actually means anymore, I want to know why garlands are used for family pictures of those who have passed away etc etc.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Was there not a time in India when there was a significant Muslim population, at least at the time of Gandhi, before the founding of Pakistan?

We still have a significant population of Muslims. We have the third largest population of Muslims in the world (172 million in 2011). Some 15% of the Indian population, and they keep coming. Till now it was Bangladeshis, now Rohingyas too.

Is any initiative to educate all Hindus about their own traditions and religion even possible, considering how large and diverse our religion is ?
Do you think this loss or forgetfulness of meaning in aspects of our religion in our daily life can lead to a problem, especially in India ?

The government till now was against Hinduism and encouraged divisive tendencies in Hinduism. There is no initiative though Hindu religious institutions are not short of money. The emphasis is not on understanding Hinduism in its various shades but to promote their individual sectoral ideologies. The sects are selfish. The Hindu philanthropists should think of this rather than fattening the already fat 'mathadhipatis' and 'acharyas'. They could do a lot.

Hinduism should be taught in an academic way and the insistence on mantras and rituals should be curtailed. At the moment it seems that only these things only matter. That is why many people find it meaningless.

 

[Vinayaka]

So better to have atheists telling Hindus what to do?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have written this sentence many a times. I am an atheist and a Hindu, I am an orthodox old person going by what is written in the scriptures. People may have overlooked that evidence, but it is there. Why do you make me repeat it?

 

[Vinayaka]

I have written this sentence many a times. I am an atheist and a Hindu, I am an orthodox old person going by what is written in the scriptures. People may have overlooked that evidence, but it is there. Why do you make me repeat it?

Then you've invented a new meaning for 'orthodox'.

Most scriptures I'm familiar with are incredibly theistic.

orthodox meaning - Google Search

 

[Aupmanyav]

Orthodox, old views. And I go by Vedas and Upanishads.

 

[Vinayaka]

Orthodox, old views. And I go by Vedas and Upanishads.

Which are theistic by nature. I find any quite rare belief within a system of belief to be better described as 'unorthodox', frankly. (Just as if a cricket bowler had an unorthodox delivery) That's the more common usage. but of course, as you're about to say, (and accurately) it's your right to differ. So be it.

 

[sayak83]

Vanakkam,

While reading some indian newpaper, I came across an article talking about the lots of conversions of Hindus to Islam in Maharastra (especially Mumbai).

Now now this is not the aim of this thread and I do not wish to see a hindu vs muslim bash fest, please bear that in mind before replying.

A few of these converts were asked how and why they left Hinduism, and some answers were really surprising to me:



This part stood off the entire article to me, why ? Because Sanatan Dharma is a religion that is full of meaning, should it be hidden or obvious, pretty much everything has a meaning. From the layout of the simplest shrine to the offering of a coconut or the specific chanting of a mantra. Everything.

Yet many Hindus doesn't seems to know... And it's true that I've been given a lot of this answer in France and in India too: "it's tradition", "I don't know, it was always like this".

Hindus actually drop Sanatan Dharma because they think they accomplish meaninglessly puja, they do meaningless gestures and offer meaningless things to the temple, they recite meaningless mantras and welcome once a year a meaningless statue that ends up meaninglessly wrecked on a shore. They turn toward other religions because they see a meaning in them that they have lost in their own.

While everyone is absolutely free to make their own choices for their religious path in their life, I do find it sad to see that many of our brothers, sisters and traditions loose their meaning.

What are your thoughts on this subject ?
Is any initiative to educate all Hindus about their own traditions and religion even possible, considering how large and diverse our religion is ?
Do you think this loss or forgetfulness of meaning in aspects of our religion in our daily life can lead to a problem, especially in India ? (ex. loss of entire sampraday, disappearance of some practices, mass conversions etc... ? )

Aum Namah Shivaya

I found the article you are linking from,
http://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/other/Forced-conversion/articleshow/53579363.cms

I do not think, after reading the article, that it has much to do with their lack of knowledge of Hinduism but their attraction to the message and theology of Islam. Different people are attracted to different things and have different spiritual paths to traverse. The idea that Hinduism will attract everyone is not expected. Frankly none of this concerns me. What I am concerned about is that in many Muslim majority countries, the conversion from Islam is a criminal offense (often a capital offense). As a nation that seeks to uphold freedom of conscience, India and other free nations should not only prevent groups within its territory from using force of any sort to facilitate or prevent conversion (I am talking about both certain Hindu and Muslim and Christian and atheist/Marxist groups in this case), but also prevent any organization monetarily or organizationally supported by religiously intolerant states from operating within its borders. Just as principles of free trade and free market stops when another nation uses children and slave labor to manufacture its goods for trade, principles of free religious proselytization stop when a nation and organizations within it forcibly lock their citizens in one religion.