To all bible-believing, sin-hating, god-fearing, believers. Comments?

WirePaladin · May 28, 2015

I found this on facebook. Wish I'd written it.

An Atheist’s Open Letter to Those Praying for His Son | Divided Under God

Frankly, when I hear, "i'm praying for you , my skin crawls."

Sultan Of Swing · May 28, 2015

If I know telling someone "I'm praying for you" is going to annoy them, then what's the point of saying it? It's supposed to be a kind gesture. As a Christian, it wouldn't stop me from actually carrying out said prayers, for by my beliefs it would be irresponsible to not do so, but to notify people who are anti-theistic of said prayers is probably not the best idea, I'd agree.

On the writer's point that when things go bad, we say it's "God's plan", I'd like to remind him from a Christian perspective that when things go well, it is also God's plan. That means both of his children, from a Christian perspective, are also part of God's plan, and were not against His intentions or some great upset of the divine order.

On the broader point of "What's the point of prayer?", prayer often does a lot more for us than it does for God. It is an act of fellowship and conversation, aligning our wills with God's and the Bible tells us to bring our desires and problems before Him, and so we do so. Perhaps His plan includes us praying for something, in order that it may come to pass in the first place, and so technically the prayer did actually 'change' something. There are many instances in the Bible where the prayers of individuals appear to bring about some change, so yes, while God plans everything out, the very prayer itself would be part of the plan... and so Christians should still pray, knowing that God's will is best.

Unification · May 28, 2015

Prayer: electronic, energetic communication, quantum entanglement.
Emission of photons.

I'd agree that most prayer is for silly things, in vain, and spoken, selfishly, and to be seen. There are genuine and pure hearted and minded that "pray" quietly and effectively.

Once two particles have interacted, if you separate them, even by miles, they behave as if they're still connected. This has been demonstrated on the subatomic level.

All molecularly connected in a world of all energy and vibrations.

"God" is not an individual, cosmic individual sky daddy, or a mythological deity, "God" is consciousness, energy, and matter. Sum total of all.

If there were no force that holds and sustains all life so we can love and cherish, and experience, there would be no such thing as science or themselves or their child.

Science was created. Science only exists because there are conscious minds to create its existence. Science is not the reason for life. Medical professionals are all conscious minds and the work that they do is all energy.

Same force that provides the conscious knowledge to the minds of beings to have medical knowledge.

Even though there are no such thing as "atheists," I'd be one too for all of the endless deities and mental concepts of images of what people perceive their "God" should be like or is.

Their child was the will of their own, because they exist consciously to be able to experience, love and to cherish life in which they do not sustain the ability of life themselves to the slightest degree.

Nakosis · May 28, 2015

I'd suspect he has more important things to worry about than people praying for his son. Why waste energy getting upset about it?

leibowde84 · May 28, 2015

I agree. What's the harm if they don't know you are doing it? And telling them is pretty vain anyways.

Nietzsche · May 28, 2015

Because he is rightly frustrated & tired of hearing what amounts to "O genie of the lamp, I wish for his son to be okay" from people, who then expect him to regard it as some decisive, sweeping gesture rather than what is basically someone trying to cast a 'Heal Party' spell on their turn.

Tumah · May 28, 2015

So basically. You couldn't think of a zing so you linked someone else's zinger?
Or was there a point to this?

Nakosis · May 28, 2015

I just think it is a waste of time to get yourself frustrated about someone else's beliefs. It's better, IMO, to not let what other people do bother you and get on with living your own life.

jonathan180iq · May 28, 2015

I posted a photo one time of a woman receiving all of the very helpful "likes" on Facebook that finally saved her child's life...

Telling someone going through a very serious and possibly life-threatening situation that you'll pray for them is akin to clicking the "like" thumb on facebook... It accomplished nothing. It's just a platitude.
Do something for someone. Contribute financially - Spend personal time with them, for moral support if nothing else - Actually get invovled; don't just sit back and "pray" to the Mark Zuckerberg of the sky

ChristineES · May 28, 2015

That's his problem, not ours. People are too easily offended nowadays, if you ask me. I personally don't take offense when someone is trying to do something kind, even if I don't believe in it. I believe that most people's hearts are in the right place. And it is one thing to believe someone is misguided between being offended by it.

WirePaladin · May 29, 2015

But that is exactly his point.
It ISN'T kind, whatever the intent, whatever the believer thinks. It is at best inconsiderate at worst insulting.

Suppose you were in a similar situation, dealing with some serious medical condition and I told you, in all sincerity, "I will pray to Athena. She listens to me because I have true faith. She has the power to cure this. Rest easy, discontinue all medical treatment, Athena will see you though. I know because I know."

Levite · May 29, 2015

Obviously, I wouldn't critique that guy's letter to his face. He wrote in a time of trouble, and still did a good job being polite to those with whom he disagreed. It's not a moment in his life when he needs or is in a position to respond to philosophical debate.

But in the abstract, he makes a lot of the same erroneous presumptions about religion and prayer that many atheists do. He seems to imply that there is a choice: either praying for an ill person's health, or, alternatively, utilizing science and medicine to help them. But very few religious people outside of certain sects of Christianity and some extreme fundamentalists in various religions, would presume such a dichotomy. For most, prayer is something one does in addition to use of science and medicine.

While I can't speak for how Christians or Muslims would illustrate that point, in Judaism, we are taught that human wisdom is a gift from God. Part of how God sends us support and help is by inspiring human beings to have the commitment, compassion, fortitude, and brilliance to become doctors and scientists, so that we can help one another using His gifts. Prayer for the health of the ill may be answered in the form of excellent doctors and nurses and researchers and whatnot. But we pray for a little extra something, also, if possible-- just as a wish over and above our confidence in our fellow human beings-- just to do everything we can. Sort of a spiritual dotting of the i's and crossing of the t's, if you will.

And prayer certainly is no replacement for charity, both in terms of financial donations and in terms of volunteering one's time. Such a concept is wholly foreign to Judaism, and if I had to guess, is probably also wholly foreign to non-fundamentalist Christianity and Islam, also.

He makes a number of other theological presumptions, all of which reflect fundamentalist, literalist, even perhaps extremist conceptions of God. And if they were directed specifically at fundamentalist and extremist religious individuals and groups, I could not argue with them. But, like many atheists, he directs his critique at religion as a whole, appearing to either not know or not care that most religious people are not fundamentalists or strict literalists or theological extremists.

I certainly don't care that this guy is an atheist. People should believe whatever they want to believe. And having been the subject of unwanted proselytization efforts by fundamentalist Christians, I am also sympathetic to how annoying it can be, and especially irksome when they are condescending. But atheists who vociferously reject all religion in reaction to very specific theological concepts which are by no means universal to all religion, and thus conflate all religious belief into what amounts to the fundamentalist Christianity common to right-wing America, really have little credibility to their arguments, from my point of view.

WirePaladin · May 29, 2015

To many of us and certainly to me this is just too fine a point to be of any significance. So you have some petty quibbles with some other idea of say sin, or maybe OSAS troubles you. Perhaps you reject the idea of hell.Maybe you believe six days of creation, a magic tree, a magic apple and a talking snake are all poetic images, metaphors, analogies, rather than literally correct. BIG whoopie! So What?

You still believe in some supernatural intelligent being, some moral order imposed by some power. Still believe that we need to be controlled by, subservient to, in awe of, something out there beyond our understanding. Totally beyond human intelligence to grasp, something OUTSIDE the natural world that is concerned, daily concerned, with the activities of each of us.

BS! Squared.

Not only is this "distinction" meaningless to us; it is disingenuous on believer's part to state it. Because you very well KNOW these trivial theological differences are just that meaningless quibbles over illogical irrational ideas without any evidence whatever to support them. You guys are arguing over the color of Dick Tracy's car. And you expect US to take this nonsense seriously?

Get real!

Levite · May 29, 2015

I have no issue with atheism when it is respectful others' beliefs and when it is thoughtful and educated. Just as I have no problem with religion when it is respectful of others' beliefs and when it is thoughtful and educated.

Your post was neither respectful nor educated and thoughtful. It reflects, to the contrary, willful ignorance of the beliefs of others, and an explicit preference for blind rage on your own terms. Even the author of the letter you posted, with whom I disagreed at length, was at least more polite and thoughtful than you were.

Are you under the impression that such rants will create dialogue, or be persuasive of your positions? Or are you merely vituperating for the pleasure of hearing your own anger?

In either case, grow up.

Shadow Wolf · May 29, 2015

I'd be too concerned about the well being of my child to get caught up on who may or may not be praying.
And people sometimes call me a bitter, cynical pessimist. At least I don't get offended when people are trying to be polite.
Personally, I'm more worked over "like" becoming redefined in a way that doesn't mean "like," as in something of a similar nature or something you approve of/are gratified with.
"OMG! Grammy has cancer!"
"Like" :facepalm:

WirePaladin · May 29, 2015

I have no issue with atheism when it is respectful others' beliefs and when it is thoughtful and educated. Just as I have no problem with religion when it is respectful of others' beliefs and when it is thoughtful and educated.

Your post was neither respectful nor educated and thoughtful. It reflects, to the contrary, willful ignorance of the beliefs of others, and an explicit preference for blind rage on your own terms. Even the author of the letter you posted, with whom I disagreed at length, was at least more polite and thoughtful than you were.

Are you under the impression that such rants will create dialogue, or be persuasive of your positions? Or are you merely vituperating for the pleasure of hearing your own anger?

In either case, grow up.

WoW!

Notice the carefully constructed argument. Review the voluminous evidence cited in support. Note carefully the clarity of language, the force of the phrasing, the depth of understanding revealed.

How can I possibly compete with that?

Quagmire · May 29, 2015

I love it. the bottom line message to that diatribe seems to be, "Don't pray for us, give us money".

Marisa · May 29, 2015

Meh, it doesn't bother me. It means absolutely nothing to me when people say it to me, so I suppose that's why it doesn't bother me. But I'm me and no one else and I would never tell anyone that what they feel is not valid.

psychoslice · May 29, 2015

Yea I hate that also, it sounds patronising.

ChristineES · May 29, 2015

If I pray for someone who doesn't believe in God, I usually never let them know.

To all bible-believing, sin-hating, god-fearing, believers. Comments?

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