- The Rich Man and Lazarus -

[Wilson Wilson]

Right

The Rich and the Kingdom of God
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Then there is this passage. Finding these and pasting on this tablet can be a pain, please bear with me.

Testimonies About Jesus
31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

Once again without my two cents, what does everyone get from these passages in a whole?

 

[Nada]

This parable reminds me of the exodus out of Egypt and every Jewish prophet after Moses. More than once the importance of Moses and the prophets was pointed out. This was a parable possibly told by Jesus. Then this.....

The Exodus out of Egypt is amazing.You can see the parallels between Mose and Jesus.
Both were hunted as infants and on a murder list.
Both hid in Egypt.
Both were raised by men who were not their natural fathers.
Both were sent to deliver their people.
Moses began his mission when at the burning bush he heard God speak.
Jesus began his ministry when the dove ascended above him and God spoke.
Moses performed many miracles.
Jesus performed many miracles.
Moses used the blood of the lamb to protect the people.
Jesus is the lamb who's blood was shed for all of mankind.
Moses used a covenant meal,passover,to remember the deliverance out of Egypt.
Jesus established the New Covenant with his disciples and commanded they remember this.The Last Supper.
Moses fed the multitude of Israelites.
Jesus fed many people too.
Moses instructed his people to gather manna(bread)
Jesus instructed his disciples to feed themselves spiritual bread.

The list goes on and on.........

 

[outhouse]

The Exodus out of Egypt is amazing.You can see the parallels between Mose and Jesus.
Both were hunted as infants and on a murder list.
Both hid in Egypt.
Both were raised by men who were not their natural fathers.
Both were sent to deliver their people.
Moses began his mission when at the burning bush he heard God speak.
Jesus began his ministry when the dove ascended above him and God spoke.
Moses performed many miracles.
Jesus performed many miracles.
Moses used the blood of the lamb to protect the people.
Jesus is the lamb who's blood was shed for all of mankind.
Moses used a covenant meal,passover,to remember the deliverance out of Egypt.
Jesus established the New Covenant with his disciples and commanded they remember this.The Last Supper.
Moses fed the multitude of Israelites.
Jesus fed many people too.
Moses instructed his people to gather manna(bread)
Jesus instructed his disciples to feed themselves spiritual bread.

The list goes on and on.........

First context is important.

The exodus and moses are literary creations by all historical accounts. Neither happened or took place.

Its Wonderful that you supplied all the similarities the NT authors plagiarized from the OT. We know some unknown authors used moses and paralleled him to moses rhetorically speaking.

 

[Nada]

Then there is this passage. Finding these and pasting on this tablet can be a pain, please bear with me.



Once again without my two cents, what does everyone get from these passages in a whole?

Jesus is making a declaration.He is telling them all that he is the chosen one that God the Almighty has sent forth into the land to deliver His people.Jesus is making it clear that they understand he alone is the way.He tells them that they have never heard God's voice nor seen his form.So here we have Jesus making it clear also that he is not God the Almighty. He is God's messenger.Jesus explains to them that they do not have love for God in their hearts.They study the scriptures and think this is the way into God's Kingdom.The people accept everyone else, but when Jesus speaks, they shun him.Jesus tells them that Moses even wrote about Jesus and they still will not believe.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Does anyone gather any continuity issues regarding Jesus and his messages and the new and old covenant in these passages?

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Last passage for me as this could go on forever.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Nada]

Last passage for me as this could go on forever.

Simply put,do not do as the Pharisees did.They are a prime example of corruption.People must teach the truth and not give in to their own indulgences.Another thing is that all is set in writing and will occur,according to the holy scriptures.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I am getting different messages in these various passages. The message of each passage is clear stand alone. Contrasting all these passages together I get a mixed message.

 

[Nada]

I am getting different messages in these various passages. The message of each passage is clear stand alone. Contrasting all these passages together I get a mixed message.

I would break them down, one by one, and study each one individually, so there is no confusion.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I would break them down, one by one, and study each one individually, so there is no confusion.

I am not confused, I am questioning the continuity when looking at various passages in contrast. I wanted to see what others gather from doing the same. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Just more observations from others maybe I can learn from.

 

[Nada]

I am not confused, I am questioning the continuity when looking at various passages in contrast. I wanted to see what others gather from doing the same. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Just more observations from others maybe I can learn from.

Ok.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Maybe the REAL meaning is that all this time we've been thinking all this was anti-Semitic nonsense, but it's ACTUALLY written by critics of the apostles, who had become precisely what they were accusing "Jews" of being: greedy, selfish jerkwads.

*mind ... blown*

 

[outhouse]

Maybe the REAL meaning is that all this time we've been thinking all this was anti-Semitic nonsense, but it's ACTUALLY written by critics of the apostles, who had become precisely what they were accusing "Jews" of being: greedy, selfish jerkwads.

Welcome to the forum Kelly

There is not really something to this, once we realize how the books were compiled. You stumbled on to a few key points that should be addressed though.

anti-Semitic

The unknown authors plagiarized Semitic sources and embraced their theology, but at the same time were divorcing cultural Judaism.

Most people do not understand the term Judaism in its first century context. It is not the same Judaism you know today. It was multi cultural, and it was divided into many different sects all worshipping differently and adhering to laws differently.

So we have a love and hate going on here.

critics of the apostles

I think a few have claims Mark was a reactionary piece to Pauls epistles, Paul had his critics. That is not how the gospels as a whole were produced though.

If we read the gospel text we find many critics of the apostles as they are painted as cowards who run at arrest.

Then we also see them being placed at such a high status, enough so that they were rhetorically held in high esteem.

The authors were not critics of apostles or they would have pained them more negatively then they did. These authors built up their points and made what was important quite clear. And that was not one.

who had become precisely what they were accusing "Jews" of being: greedy, selfish jerkwads.

Jesus real followers I guess fled back to Galilee after his arrest with tail between their legs. They were Jewish and their leader died like John shortly before. It was over for them.

Jesus was not messiah or god to these Jews, he never fit that bill while alive, and pious Jews would never blasphemy as such.

These were poor Aramaic peasants who liver terribly poor lives, and were not greedy or selfish or jerkwads.

The unknown authors HOWEVER were all Hellenist far removed from Jesus life and Jesus real followers.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I remember this bible passage from my childhood the most. I remember as a kid feeling frustrated by the rich man in this story but then felt bad for his outcome. My views on this passage since has layered and taken my thoughts to other than the moral of the story. Aside from the golden rule, what do you get from this passage?

First of all, yes, Luke 16:14-31 is a story. A story in illustration or parable form. Not a real happening.
Jesus said nothing about the ' rich man ' living a degraded life worthy of fiery punishment. Being rich in itself is Not wrong.
The Pharisees - Luke 16:14; Luke 16:19 - were greedy money lovers.
The temporary Constitution of the Mosaic Law was until John - Luke 16:16 - In a sense they were married to the Law. - Luke 16:18
They were supposed to become Christ's bride, so to speak.
Those haughty proud Pharisees professed adhering to the Law, but were really teaching their own traditions - Matthew 15:9
Because of Jesus there was now going to be a status change to take place.
That situation of the ' two men ' was about to change.
The beggar desired to be filled with droppings from the rich man's table. Those 'Pharisee rich men' stands for those corrupted religious leaders dressed in purple showing they had a favored position. That proud rich-man class held the common Lazarus class in contempt. They denied them spiritual nourishment which Jesus was now providing them.
Since the Rich Man and Lazarus are Not literal, but just standing for or symbolizing those classes of people, then their deaths were also symbolic. Both men, the Rich Man and the Poor Lazarus class, die to their former conditions or circumstances.
The humble repentant Lazarus group come into a position of divine favor ( Abraham )
However the Rich Man class or group are in figurative torment because they are now in divine disfavor out of God's grace.
Jesus was going to end the Law - Romans 10:4 - and that great or dramatic reversal showed a change in conditions between the two groups or classes of people. The temporary old Law was being replaced by the New Covenant or contract with God's favor and blessing. The ' great gulf or chasm ' separates and divides the two classes by God's judgment on matters.
That haughty Rich Man want the Lazarus group to ' water down ' God's judgment message.
That is true today. False clergy want the international good news message of Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8 watered down by Jesus' modern-day followers.

 

[e.r.m.]

I had wondered the same thing. I would think Abraham and Lazarus would have some compassion. Why would they appear to the already tormented man just to add to the torment? I never understood that as a kid or as an adult.

It seems to me that Jesus wasn't as concerned about certain details in order to make his point. I'm guessing there were charitable pharisees, like Nicodemus who would help an injured Samaritan. When Jesus gave the parable of the tax collector and pharisee, he was just teaching about humility. No one in the Bible ever took that and made a salvation prayer out of it. Sometimes details are just for the sake of the story.

 

[Apologetics]

I remember this bible passage from my childhood the most. I remember as a kid feeling frustrated by the rich man in this story but then felt bad for his outcome. My views on this passage since has layered and taken my thoughts to other than the moral of the story. Aside from the golden rule, what do you get from this passage?




This parables is like many of the parable Jesus Gave fulfilling scriptures Math 13:35 Psalm 78:2. Parables are earthly illustration of a heavenly truth. Many times Jesus said "the Kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven which a woman took" Math 13:33 or "A sower went forth to sow"Math 13:3. They are figures of speech and not necessarily representing actual events. In Math 13:3. There was a sower(Jesus) but he did not actually sow any real plant seeds. The seeds were the word of God( Metaphors,Figures of speech).

When you read Math 21:33 A certain householder planted a vineyard and went into a far country.It ends by saying that the Pharisees perceived he was speaking of them. You see and earthly explanation of a heavenly truth or future event yet to happen. No real householder on earth is intended The house holder is God .The vineyard is Israel Isa 5:1 The servants the Prophets. The Husbandman the Israelites and The son Jesus, God's Son. The Jewish leaders rejected God's Son and Crucified Him 1st Thess 2:15 The phrase taken from you.Math 21:43 Refers to the Judgment that came upon the Jewish Nation for rejecting God's Son. As Math 21:41 "He will miserably destroy those wicked men. 1st Thess 2:16.


Like wise

When you read the Rich man and Lazarus Luke 16:19 The certain Man is Israel ( The unbelieving Jews). The Beggar lazarus is Jesus.Laid at his Gate( Jesus was in complete public view of the Jewish Nation) with sores( The perceived blasphemy, doctrine and evil that Jesus represented to the Leaders of Israel.) Desiring to fed with the Crumbs( Jesus desired to be accepted by the Jewish Leaders) The Dogs came and Licked his sores( The gentiles accepted Jesus and welcomed his teaching. Sores( The teachings that the Jewish leaders perceived as blasphemy) You see just as the beggar was rejected. So Also was Jesus rejected by th \e Jewish leaders Read all of Isa 53. He was despised and rejected of men Isa 53:3



The Beggar died and was carried into Abraham's Bosom( Jesus ascended to his Father in Heaven) Just as Abraham was the Father of the Jewish Nation. In this parable Abraham (Represents God, Jesus Father his God John 20:17.The rich man died ( The Jewish Nation Died spiritually Eze 37:11-14) Cut off Rom 11:20-22 In Hell ( Spiritual Grave) lifting up his eyes being in torment.( Spiritually depraved of the truth of God by rejecting Gods Son John 8:24. and Physically tormented starting from the 70 Ad destruction of Jerusalem and the 134 Ads final expulsion of the Jews from the home land and scattered Due 30:3 Jer 30:11 Jer 31:10.Ever since that Time Jews have been hated to a great extent of which the Halucost is a sad example of ,which was prophesied concerning the Israelite that if they would turn from God That they would be Tormented Due 32:21-26 .


Luke 16:24-26 Is a description of The condition of Israel . Spiritual dead. The flames ( represent all the heartache and suffering the Jewish people have experienced from 70 Ad Until the present Day where they live in fear of being blown off the map by Iran.


Luke 16:26 The great( Long Period) gulf is the aprox 2000 year period from The Death and resurrection of Jesus until the return of Christ in which the Jewish Nation after visibly seeing Jesus accept him as their King. Zach 12:10-14


Luke 16:27-31 Lest they also come to this place of torment( The Israelites will never escape their torment until they finally hear what Moses and the prophets have spoken which is Act 10:43 To him gave all the prophets witness that through his name( Jesus) whosoever believes in him shall receive remission of sins.


Another reason why This Is not about real people is because If this was a story of a real event and Nazareth went to heaven it would contradict scripture for John 3:13 no man has ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven even the son of man which is in heaven.


So you see No man,woman or child since the beginning of the world has ascended to heaven yet. There is no such thing as purgatory. For the scriptures plainly say over and over starting from Gen 4:16 dust you are and dust you shall return to John 11:25 he that believes in me though he were dead. Dead means Not living Rev 20 :5 rest of the dead lived not( They are not alive). The Soul is not immortal. The immortal soul doctrine was a man made doctrine of Plate which Christian after the apostles died ,The Apostle were not alive to defend the truth of this subject and so it was incorporated into Christian doctrines.


John 3:16 Plainly and clearly demonstrates that souls are not immortal. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever should believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Read it again slowly paying close attention to each words menaing

This passage demonstrates that only people who believe in Jesus have everlasting life at the appointed time 1Cor 15:20.

People who teach that because souls are immortal at death either live eternally apart from God in hell or at death live eternally with God because they believe in his Son. Are in error


For the Scripture is clear and plain Only those who believe in Jesus have everlasting Life everyone else has everlasting permanent irreversible death. Mat 7:13 Wide is the gate that leads to destruction everlasting Permanent irreversible death.
Notice it says destruction Not everlasting

Again Math 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
You see righteous go to Life eternal
The unrighteous go to the opposite of Life That is Death.

Rom 6:21
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Notice he does not say burning in flames But death!!! If there ever was a place in the epistles to teach the doctrine of a burning hell he would have surely written it here

Again Rom 6:23 Wages of sin is death
Notice he did not say wages of sin is to burn in flames forever.
Nope he didn't say that. Because its not biblical. Man made doctrine.

Gen 3:19 dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Thats death not life.




​

 

[Thief]

It seems to me that Jesus wasn't as concerned about certain details in order to make his point. I'm guessing there were charitable pharisees, like Nicodemus who would help an injured Samaritan. When Jesus gave the parable of the tax collector and pharisee, he was just teaching about humility. No one in the Bible ever took that and made a salvation prayer out of it. Sometimes details are just for the sake of the story.

and some details are there....without mention
as with the rich man speaking to an angel

Go to Lazarus and ask him to relieve my thirst.......
Nay
Go to my sons and warn them of my fate.....
Nay

the rich man was conversing with an angel.....AS he suffers in hell
face to face....close enough to speak to each other.....an yet

There is a great divide between us......said the angel

 

[pearl]

It seems another attack on the Pharisees love for money, and warning to Christians. 'If they do not listen to Moses....' To Luke's listeners it is prophetic, from Acts we know people did not listen even after Jesus came back from the dead.

 

[metis]

It seems another attack on the Pharisees love for money, and warning to Christians.

It was not intrinsic to the Pharisees. Jesus was of the Pharisee tradition as was Paul and probably most of the other Twelve. What I think what you were looking at is an internal argument with many of the Pharisee and Sadducee leaders were enjoying their lofty positions and being rather hedonistic.