- The Rich Man and Lazarus -

[Wilson Wilson]

I remember this bible passage from my childhood the most. I remember as a kid feeling frustrated by the rich man in this story but then felt bad for his outcome. My views on this passage since has layered and taken my thoughts to other than the moral of the story. Aside from the golden rule, what do you get from this passage?

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

New International Version (NIV)
Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.



 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Aside from the message regarding charity (this is basically a Scrooge tale), one thing I realized is that there is supposedly a gulf between heaven and hell, but if one really thinks about this particular story, such a gulf would make the conversation impossible, right? I am forced to wonder if the gulf is taught by people who want to ensure their enemies, in their minds, are burning while they themselves get all the goodies. Note that Lazarus doesn't seem to have an opinion about it. It's all discussed via the authority figure. In all honesty, what's to stop Lazarus for forgiving the selfish jerk and cooling his tongue?

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Aside from the message regarding charity (this is basically a Scrooge tale), one thing I realized is that there is supposedly a gulf between heaven and hell, but if one really thinks about this particular story, such a gulf would make the conversation impossible, right? I am forced to wonder if the gulf is taught by people who want to ensure their enemies, in their minds, are burning while they themselves get all the goodies. Note that Lazarus doesn't seem to have an opinion about it. It's all discussed via the authority figure. In all honesty, what's to stop Lazarus for forgiving the selfish jerk and cooling his tongue?

I had wondered the same thing. I would think Abraham and Lazarus would have some compassion. Why would they appear to the already tormented man just to add to the torment? I never understood that as a kid or as an adult.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I've noticed that in the bible or outside of it, hell stories tend to be torture porn, where the enemies of the author are condemned while he or she and their friends get all the awesomeness rewards. Peter was able to deny Jesus, be a selfish pig ... and no one ever writes him into hell, do they? (I haven't read every book on the planet, so someone somewhere might have written one.) No, it's always someone the author doesn't like. I call it Plot Convenience.

 

[outhouse]

what do you get from this passage?

It is a rhetorical fiction IMHO to combat the greedy, in that you cannot buy your way out of hell. This appealed to the poor in that they were on the right track, and proselytized the rich that money would no save them, jesus would.

I find importance in the piece because it has the possibility of reflecting the original roots of the movement that started in the peasant class.

This piece reflects the later movement in Hellenism, in that you cannot buy your everlasting life. The way this early movement proselytized it values, and they were that you should hurry up and join before the end comes and you all burn in hell without being saved.

 

[Nakosis]

I remember this bible passage from my childhood the most. I remember as a kid feeling frustrated by the rich man in this story but then felt bad for his outcome. My views on this passage since has layered and taken my thoughts to other than the moral of the story. Aside from the golden rule, what do you get from this passage?


I suppose the message is don't envy the rich. They will suffering in hell for their materialistic lifestyle. Your better off being a poor sick beggar than a greedy materialist.

 

[Hawkins]

I remember this bible passage from my childhood the most. I remember as a kid feeling frustrated by the rich man in this story but then felt bad for his outcome. My views on this passage since has layered and taken my thoughts to other than the moral of the story. Aside from the golden rule, what do you get from this passage?


It only says that the earthly human hierarchy/classes no longer hold in your after life.

 

[Nada]

I remember this bible passage from my childhood the most. I remember as a kid feeling frustrated by the rich man in this story but then felt bad for his outcome. My views on this passage since has layered and taken my thoughts to other than the moral of the story. Aside from the golden rule, what do you get from this passage?




Many think this story is literal.This story is a parable.The Rich man represented the Pharisees.The beggar Lazarus represented the Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and followed Jesus.Thes two figures represent many people,not two literal men.

 

[outhouse]

Many think this story is literal.This story is a parable.The Rich man represented the Pharisees.The beggar Lazarus represented the Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and followed Jesus.Thes two figures represent many people,not two literal men.

I would agree for the most part

We cannot know the exact context of the allegory or metaphor by definition with certainty.

I would not generally assume the Pharisees though, and these Hellenist who created this story, were trying to distance themselves from Judaism, so its doubtful it did not represent cultural Judaism. By the time this was written the majority of the group were Gentiles and Proselytes who wanted to hold on to more traditional jewish values then the other unknown gospel authors.


All in all you made a good reply. I'm just into details and context.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Trips me out to think about who told this story originally. One would assume that Jesus told this parable then again probably not. Lets say this came from Jesus, look at tht last line about resurrection.

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

What a interesting way to end that parable if Luke learned this from Jesus. Not only because Jesus and his own resurrection but the suggested path to salvation in the parable was listen to Moses and the prophets. Without my own two cents, what do you all think on this?

 

[Desert Snake]

Right, I immediately thought of the resurrection. I assume there is a connection here. I think that the prophets reference is ''typical''? I think that if one does not believe the prophets, they are considered unreligious or non-believers in this context.

 

[wizanda]

Without my own two cents, what do you all think on this?

That is the main concept I've always understood from it....That even if someone was sent back from Heaven to reiterate, people should be already listening to all the other previous messengers.

Thus the concept of Christ's death and resurrection means nothing, if people don't follow the instructions given in the first place.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Rich man represented the Pharisees.The beggar Lazarus represented the Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and followed Jesus.

Josephus (37 – c. 100 CE), himself a Pharisee, estimated the total Pharisee population prior to the fall of the Second Templeto be around 6,000.[2] Josephus claimed that Pharisees received the full-support and goodwill of the common people, apparently in contrast to the more elite Sadducees, who were the upper class. Pharisees claimed Mosaic authority for their interpretation[3] of Jewish Laws, while Sadducees represented the authority of the priestly privileges and prerogatives established since the days of Solomon, when Zadok, their ancestor, officiated as High Priest. Josephus' statement 'common people' strongly indicates that most Jews were 'just Jewish people' by separating them, and making them independent of the main liturgical groups.

- wiki

 

[Thief]

I noticed in my reading....the great divide is not great enough to prevent conversation.

 

[Nada]

Trips me out to think about who told this story originally. One would assume that Jesus told this parable then again probably not. Lets say this came from Jesus, look at tht last line about resurrection.

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

What a interesting way to end that parable if Luke learned this from Jesus. Not only because Jesus and his own resurrection but the suggested path to salvation in the parable was listen to Moses and the prophets. Without my own two cents, what do you all think on this?

Jesus was saying that if the people did not even believe those who were chosen by God to prophecy and lead,then they will not believe anything at all.They are a people of little faith.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

• 2 Corinthians 5:7
  7 for we are walking by faith, not by sight.

Luke did not learn any of what he wrote from Jesus.Luke was not around Jesus.Luke was a physician and sailor.Very well educated.He gathered information from all the true disciples of Jesus and wrote what he heard.Luke was a Gentile who converted to christianity.Lukes main contributions, besides writing the book of Luke and Acts, was joining Paul on his many quest, and spreading christianity

Here in this passage Paul speaks of Luke while greeting people in a letter.

• Colossians 4:14
  14 Luke, the beloved physician, sends you his greetings, and so does Deʹmas.
  
  The true meaning of that parable is this.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  h
  
  

 

[columbus]

Aside from the golden rule...

I don't think this has as much to do with the golden rule as overturning the prevailing world view.
The afterlife depicted is pretty much the same as the standard Sheol, a sleepy place where nothing much happens.
What is different is the premise of judgement after death. The prevailing world view was "If you are rich and secure it is because you're righteous and God likes you. If you are poor and miserable you have done something to deserve God's displeasure." That is a very selfserving attitude, if you happen to be among the wealthy. But in Jesus' day, it also meant that you were a Roman lackey or else you would not stay rich.
So this was also a barely concealed attack on the powerful in Judea in a way that was quite subversive. It would resonate strongly with the majority who were being oppressed.
It is one of the reasons I believe Jesus was an anti Roman recruiter.
Tom

 

[outhouse]

Jesus was saying that if the people did not even believe those who were chosen by God to prophecy and lead,then they will not believe anything at all.They are a people of little faith.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

• 2 Corinthians 5:7
  7 for we are walking by faith, not by sight.

Luke did not learn any of what he wrote from Jesus.Luke was not around Jesus.Luke was a physician and sailor.Very well educated.He gathered information from all the true disciples of Jesus and wrote what he heard.Luke was a Gentile who converted to christianity.Lukes main contributions, besides writing the book of Luke and Acts, was joining Paul on his many quest, and spreading christianity

Here in this passage Paul speaks of Luke while greeting people in a letter.

• Colossians 4:14
  14 Luke, the beloved physician, sends you his greetings, and so does Deʹmas.
  
  The true meaning of that parable is this.
  
  View attachment 10705
  
  
  h
  

Its not a good idea to take different books out of context, to prove a point.

 

[outhouse]

He gathered information from all the true disciples of Jesus

Unsubstantiated rhetoric

He plagiarized marks gospel.

A real disciple would not have to do that

 

[Wilson Wilson]

This parable reminds me of the exodus out of Egypt and every Jewish prophet after Moses. More than once the importance of Moses and the prophets was pointed out. This was a parable possibly told by Jesus. Then this.....

The High Priest of a New Covenant
1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.
4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
13 By calling this covenant "new,"he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[Nada]

This parable reminds me of the exodus out of egypt and every Jewish prophet after Moses. More than once the importance of Moses and the prophets was pointed out. This was a parable possibly told by Jesus. Then this.....



This bit too...

Yes.Moses was important.He carried out the written law, and was himself a Christ.He foreshadowed the one to come.The Israelites were part of the old covenant which was established with Abraham.When the people turned from God, and worshipped other gods, and did not follow Gods laws,He turned away Himself.Jesus established the New Covenant with his disciples, and now all of mankind has a chance for salvation,according to the holy scriptures. Jesus himself is the high priest now.That is why when one prays he or she must say it in Jesus name because only he is the mediator between man and God.No one can come to God unless it is through Jesus Christ.