• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Pope Francis ?

What do you think about the Pope Francis ?

  • He seems to be nice

    Votes: 6 50.0%
  • He was not a good choice

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • He is for the catholics and i'm not

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • I am catholic but i don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am not catholic but i follow him

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • I follow an other Pope (Tawadros II)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am catholic and like him but i don't think we need a Pope

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Pope have limited power/influence

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • I am not a christian but i like him/listen to him/follow his advices

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am catholic and i don't know

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • Total voters
    12

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Hi !

I would like to know what you think as christians about the Pope Francis, or about Popes in general.
Do you listen to him ? Do you think he can do something concretely for christians, in particular the poors or those who are persecuted ?
He was recentely in Cuba, Africa but did he help in a way or another the community or it is more to give a message of hope to people ?
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
I did not vote. I grew up as a Catholic, but never put much focus on the Pope, even when I considered myself Catholic. I no longer follow an organized approach.

On the positive side, I think what he says is an inspiration to many Catholics (and possibly some non-Catholics.)

I think he can have tremendous influence in that his influence may be passed down through the various levels of the church and practiced through the structure of the church. Also, individuals hearing him may take their own, personal inspiration from his words.

I haven't followed his movement to various locations, so I don't really know what may have gone on in Africa or Cuba in order to answer with any opinion of whether or not he helped.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not catholic, and I didn't vote since none of the options quite sat comfortably with me.
He seems to be trying to take the Church back to a simpler and more authentic message. In my opinion, it's a long journey, and I would guess there'll be times ANY Catholic message doesn't sit well with me, but I would say in relative terms he seems a real improvement over more recent Pontiffs.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
He seems more like a public relations manager than a Pope. Just my thoughts.

Interesting take. Do you think he's straying too far from an authentic Catholic message in the interests of popularism, or do you just think he spends too much time on it?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Interesting take. Do you think he's straying too far from an authentic Catholic message in the interests of popularism, or do you just think he spends too much time on it?

He wants to change the RCC, so more people look at the RCC as more welcoming perhaps than She has been. But, if you distort authentic truths as a leader of an organization that promotes those truths, in order to gain more members...it is hard to trust such a person. I think he seems very devout on some fronts, has a lot of compassion. But, he is the leader of the RCC. If he doesn't like what it actually stands for, he should step down. Which would be fine, but just don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. That's what he does.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
He wants to change the RCC, so more people look at the RCC as more welcoming perhaps than She has been. But, if you distort authentic truths as a leader of an organization that promotes those truths, in order to gain more members...it is hard to trust such a person. I think he seems very devout on some fronts, has a lot of compassion. But, he is the leader of the RCC. If he doesn't like what it actually stands for, he should step down. Which would be fine, but just don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. That's what he does.

I'm honestly interested in this.
Can you see a version of this where the RCC had moved away from some 'authentic truths'? It is hard to reconcile some of the messaging coming from the RCC with core Christian principles over the last...well...1500 years, give or take.

Alternatively, do you have examples of his mixed messaging? There are a couple of things I can think of where I can see your point, I guess, but as an overall I'm less certain that he isn't just trying to evolve the Church back to a simpler, less controlled position, rather than going on a recruitment drive.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Hi !

I would like to know what you think as christians about the Pope Francis, or about Popes in general.
Do you listen to him ? Do you think he can do something concretely for christians, in particular the poors or those who are persecuted ?
He was recentely in Cuba, Africa but did he help in a way or another the community or it is more to give a message of hope to people ?
He wants to change the RCC, so more people look at the RCC as more welcoming perhaps than She has been. But, if you distort authentic truths as a leader of an organization that promotes those truths, in order to gain more members...it is hard to trust such a person. I think he seems very devout on some fronts, has a lot of compassion. But, he is the leader of the RCC. If he doesn't like what it actually stands for, he should step down. Which would be fine, but just don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. That's what he does.
I can't think of a single time Pope Francis has gone against Catholic teaching. It does seem that the media oftentimes distorts his message or only takes snippets from it to make it seem as if he does.

I would rather say that Pope Francis is trying to change the tone of the Catholic Church. He has re-emphasized Catholic teaching on matters of homosexuality, abortion, contraception and ecumenism, but rather than framing these teachings in a cold, rigid and strict manner, Pope Francis has opted to focus more on how the Church can lovingly and pastorally take care of those with individual spiritual needs who would only be injured by such a juridicious application of the rules. He is again bringing to the front a concept commonly employed in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches known as oikonomia, or literally, "managing the household". What it means is that the strict rules of the Church can be relaxed when their strict application would be a stumbling block to the faithful. It's by no means a new concept; it goes all the way back to the days of the Church Fathers, and it guided and informed the decisions reached in many Ecumenical Councils regarding those who had fallen away from the faith, or were in exceptional circumstances. Oikonomia does not mean that the rule is changed or removed. But it does mean that the Church can have mercy on those who truly need it.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I can't think of a single time Pope Francis has gone against Catholic teaching. It does seem that the media oftentimes distorts his message or only takes snippets from it to make it seem as if he does.

I would rather say that Pope Francis is trying to change the tone of the Catholic Church. He has re-emphasized Catholic teaching on matters of homosexuality, abortion, contraception and ecumenism, but rather than framing these teachings in a cold, rigid and strict manner, Pope Francis has opted to focus more on how the Church can lovingly and pastorally take care of those with individual spiritual needs who would only be injured by such a juridicious application of the rules. He is again bringing to the front a concept commonly employed in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches known as oikonomia, or literally, "managing the household". What it means is that the strict rules of the Church can be relaxed when their strict application would be a stumbling block to the faithful. It's by no means a new concept; it goes all the way back to the days of the Church Fathers, and it guided and informed the decisions reached in many Ecumenical Councils regarding those who had fallen away from the faith, or were in exceptional circumstances. Oikonomia does not mean that the rule is changed or removed. But it does mean that the Church can have mercy on those who truly need it.

On my more charitable days, this is exactly how I see it. On my less charitable days, I usually figure ANY religion is going to irritate me, and that this has more to do with me than the religion.
But I'm not close enough to the Church or it's teachings to be sure of much, hence my questions to Deidre.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I can't think of a single time Pope Francis has gone against Catholic teaching. It does seem that the media oftentimes distorts his message or only takes snippets from it to make it seem as if he does.

I would rather say that Pope Francis is trying to change the tone of the Catholic Church. He has re-emphasized Catholic teaching on matters of homosexuality, abortion, contraception and ecumenism, but rather than framing these teachings in a cold, rigid and strict manner, Pope Francis has opted to focus more on how the Church can lovingly and pastorally take care of those with individual spiritual needs who would only be injured by such a juridicious application of the rules. He is again bringing to the front a concept commonly employed in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches known as oikonomia, or literally, "managing the household". What it means is that the strict rules of the Church can be relaxed when their strict application would be a stumbling block to the faithful. It's by no means a new concept; it goes all the way back to the days of the Church Fathers, and it guided and informed the decisions reached in many Ecumenical Councils regarding those who had fallen away from the faith, or were in exceptional circumstances. Oikonomia does not mean that the rule is changed or removed. But it does mean that the Church can have mercy on those who truly need it.

The RCC used to be able to convince people that in order to be close to Jesus, that She was the conduit, and it's simply not true. No one needs the RCC or the Pope to be close to Christ, or to ''understand'' the Bible.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I'm honestly interested in this.
Can you see a version of this where the RCC had moved away from some 'authentic truths'? It is hard to reconcile some of the messaging coming from the RCC with core Christian principles over the last...well...1500 years, give or take.

Alternatively, do you have examples of his mixed messaging? There are a couple of things I can think of where I can see your point, I guess, but as an overall I'm less certain that he isn't just trying to evolve the Church back to a simpler, less controlled position, rather than going on a recruitment drive.

Here's an article highlighting him stating things that seem contradictory.


http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/02/14/will-the-real-pope-francis-please-stand-up/

edited my opinions out. I don't really want to get into a discussion about the Pope. I just think that people would be better off following their own hearts and minds when it comes to their faith.
 
Last edited:

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Eeep. Apologies to all, I hadn't realised this was the Christianity DIR. I'll bow out gracefully, but thanks for the link, Deidre. I read it and it was interesting.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Eeep. Apologies to all, I hadn't realised this was the Christianity DIR. I'll bow out gracefully, but thanks for the link, Deidre. I read it and it was interesting.
You're welcome, and think it's a controversial topic. lol Don't think anyone will be mad you joined in here. :D
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Hi !

I would like to know what you think as christians about the Pope Francis, or about Popes in general.
Do you listen to him ? Do you think he can do something concretely for christians, in particular the poors or those who are persecuted ?
He was recentely in Cuba, Africa but did he help in a way or another the community or it is more to give a message of hope to people ?
I think he is great and is moving the church forward.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Firstly I want to say that I always welcome and highly value Lewisnotmiller's opinions, I hope he does keep around on this thread. I don't mind his intervention at all :)

He wants to change the RCC, so more people look at the RCC as more welcoming perhaps than She has been. But, if you distort authentic truths as a leader of an organization that promotes those truths, in order to gain more members...it is hard to trust such a person. I think he seems very devout on some fronts, has a lot of compassion. But, he is the leader of the RCC. If he doesn't like what it actually stands for, he should step down. Which would be fine, but just don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. That's what he does.

I think you've got Pope Francis quite wrong. He is not distorting religious truths held by the RCC, even less is he speaking out as part of a public relations coup to win more "members". He is developing our understanding of doctrine and its pastoral applications, sometimes especially with regard to the latter in a revolutionary way if you compare him with other recent papacies, but "development of doctrine" (as opposed to 'rupture' which we reject) is, ironically, an important "doctrine" in Catholic theology. People often forget this, both Catholics (i.e. fundamentalist Trads) and non-Catholics.

The problem here is twofold, as I see it:

(1) His understanding of our theology is very close to my own and eminently orthodox. He is preserving the authentic tradition of the Church from the views of "fundamentalists" or so-called "traditionalists" who present a simplified, caricature of our very nuanced and complicated doctrines. Many of these individuals "think" they understand their faith but are in fact "reductionists", ignoring the entirety of the Church's social teaching, for instance and making it seem as if the deposit of faith only consists of a few disjointed moral teachings concerned with controversial elements of sexuality. Of course we do hold to a few of these famous (or "infamous" depending on your vantage point) views on sexuality but our faith cannot be reduced to this, let alone a flawed and excruciatingly fundamentalized understanding of our teachings even in this respect. Such individuals are very similar to the excessively "liberal" Catholics they so often decry, like Fascists and Communists being so different yet so similarly totalitarian.

(2) Outside the Church, many people have an "idea" of what Catholicism is - often very close to the view of the aforementioned minority of "trads" - which is in fact a simplified caricature. There are too many reasons for this for me to capture in a single paragraph but needless to say, it's true.​

Francis has been consistently emphasising "neglected" strands within Catholic thought. Suddenly, the religion seems "richer" and more sophisticated than the caricatures held by the Trads within her Mystical Body and some of those outside her bounds.

In response to this, the "Trads" - clinging to their own truncated, simplified, reductionist and heavily selective personal interpretation of orthodoxy - reach the conclusion that the Holy Father must be "compromising" the truth and distorting it.

In a similar manner, some people outside the Church who believe that the truncated, simplified, reductionist and heavily selective interpretation of the Faith espoused by these people, evident if one "pinpoints" only certain aspects of the RCC's history and theology to the exclusion of the "whole", is the genuine understanding of Catholicism, reach the conclusion that Francis must likewise be misinterpreting the faith.

He isn't. Francis was a professor of theology at the Philosophical and Theological Faculty of San Miguel and provincial superior of the Jesuits in Argentina. He "knows his onions".

I would like those who regard him as distorting Catholic dogma to point out to me where he has done so. I have every confidence that if you try this thought experiment with me, I will be able to prove to you that he invariably hasn't contradicted our doctrines - merely contradicting one or other (or both) of the faulty interpretations of Catholic theology that I presented in the above.
 
Last edited:

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The RCC used to be able to convince people that in order to be close to Jesus, that She was the conduit, and it's simply not true. No one needs the RCC or the Pope to be close to Christ, or to ''understand'' the Bible.

Yes! If a person chooses Christianity as their faith then the Bible says that there is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ. Pope Francis IMO is a compassionate individual so I wont speak critically of him as a person, But it sure is good not to have to confess sins to a person behind a screen in a booth.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Hi !

I would like to know what you think as christians about the Pope Francis, or about Popes in general.
Do you listen to him ? Do you think he can do something concretely for christians, in particular the poors or those who are persecuted ?
He was recentely in Cuba, Africa but did he help in a way or another the community or it is more to give a message of hope to people ?

I stick to this verse, from conscience and inner experience:

1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

There is a leader/carpenter/molder/physician residing in this church(my physical body) not made with hands.
 

Mr. Beebe

Active Member
I would like to know what you think as christians about the Pope Francis, or about Popes in general.

I believe the Papacy is the Antichrist. I can present my case, but it may upset some people. Here's an example of some interesting items I would present, if asked:

3 1/2 years = 42 months = 1260 days

One prophetic day equals one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6,,, Numbers 14:34)

So, the little horn (Antichrist) was to have power over the saints for 1260 prophetic days or 1260 literal years. (Daniel 7:25)

The rule of the Papacy began in AD 538,,,,,,it's rule continued until the year 1798 when Napoleon sent General Berthier and took the Pope captive with hopes of destroying Pope Pious VI and the secular power of the Papacy.

Let's do the math. 1798 - 538 = 1260 years. That's how long the Papacy ruled before it receive it's "deadly wound" and the Bible was once again perfect in foretelling this prophecy.

And if you need more Biblical evidence, I can present more.
 
Top