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The hole paradox I came up with myself

Echogem222

Active Member
Well, I did read the post.

If you're talking about "nothing" as in just a section of empty space with nothing else but empty space around it, then it wouldn't be a "hole," but it would just be space.
No, that is not what I'm saying. What I am trying to get you to understand is the context. When you are understanding the space in a hole, you are not understanding the mass around the hole, but when you are understanding the mass around the hole, you are not understanding the space within the hole because they are two different things. You can summarize and say there are both of those things within a certain space, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. That would be like saying since there is a cube and a sphere within a box, the cube and the sphere are both the same thing. They are both shapes, sure, they are both in the box, sure, but they are not the same thing.

The importance of understanding this is understanding what nothing truly is in your mind, which is non-understanding. But many people (from my experience) think that nothing means something specific, because they think they understand nothing, which is equal to saying that they understand non-understanding. You can understand the context of non-understanding, but you cannot understand that which you can't understand.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, that is not what I'm saying. What I am trying to get you to understand is the context. When you are understanding the space in a hole, you are not understanding the mass around the hole, but when you are understanding the mass around the hole, you are not understanding the space within the hole because they are two different things. You can summarize and say there are both of those things within a certain space, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. That would be like saying since there is a cube and a sphere within a box, the cube and the sphere are both the same thing. They are both shapes, sure, they are both in the box, sure, but they are not the same thing.

The importance of understanding this is understanding what nothing truly is in your mind, which is non-understanding. But many people (from my experience) think that nothing means something specific, because they think they understand nothing, which is equal to saying that they understand non-understanding. You can understand the context of non-understanding, but you cannot understand that which you can't understand.

I wouldn't say they're the same things. If there is a hole in a wall, the concept of the "hole" is clearly not the same as the wall itself. By definition, the hole has to be in something. You can't have a hole in nothing.



1
a
: an opening through something : PERFORATION
The coat has a hole in it.

a bullet hole

b
: an area where something is missing
His mother's death left a hole in his life.

: GAP: such as
(1)
: a serious discrepancy : FLAW, WEAKNESS
some holes in your logic

(2)
: an opening in a defensive formation
a running back's ability to find holes in the defensive line

especially : the area of a baseball field between the positions of shortstop and third baseman
(3)
: a defect in a crystal (as of a semiconductor) that is due to an electron's having left its normal position in one of the crystal bonds and that is equivalent in many respects to a positively charged particle

2
: a hollowed-out place
a hole in an apple

: such as
a
: a cave, pit, or well in the ground
dug a large hole with a steam shovel

b
: BURROW
a rabbit hole

c
: an unusually deep place in a body of water (such as a river)

3
a
: a wretched or dreary place
How could anyone live in such a hole?

b
: a prison cell especially for solitary confinement
threw him in the hole for two days


4
a
golf : a shallow cylindrical hole or hollowed-out place in the putting green of a golf course into which the ball is played
b
: a part of the golf course from tee (see TEE entry 2 sense 2) to putting green
just beginning play on the third hole

also : the play on such a hole as a unit of scoring
won the hole by two strokes


5
a
: an awkward position or circumstance : FIX
got the rebels out of a hole at the battle—Kenneth Roberts

b
: a position of owing or losing money
$10 million in the hole

raising money to get out of the hole
 

Echogem222

Active Member
I wouldn't say they're the same things. If there is a hole in a wall, the concept of the "hole" is clearly not the same as the wall itself. By definition, the hole has to be in something. You can't have a hole in nothing.



1
a
: an opening through something : PERFORATION
The coat has a hole in it.

a bullet hole

b
: an area where something is missing
His mother's death left a hole in his life.

: GAP: such as
(1)
: a serious discrepancy : FLAW, WEAKNESS
some holes in your logic

(2)
: an opening in a defensive formation
a running back's ability to find holes in the defensive line

especially : the area of a baseball field between the positions of shortstop and third baseman
(3)
: a defect in a crystal (as of a semiconductor) that is due to an electron's having left its normal position in one of the crystal bonds and that is equivalent in many respects to a positively charged particle

2
: a hollowed-out place
a hole in an apple

: such as
a
: a cave, pit, or well in the ground
dug a large hole with a steam shovel

b
: BURROW
a rabbit hole

c
: an unusually deep place in a body of water (such as a river)

3
a
: a wretched or dreary place
How could anyone live in such a hole?

b
: a prison cell especially for solitary confinement
threw him in the hole for two days


4
a
golf : a shallow cylindrical hole or hollowed-out place in the putting green of a golf course into which the ball is played
b
: a part of the golf course from tee (see TEE entry 2 sense 2) to putting green
just beginning play on the third hole

also : the play on such a hole as a unit of scoring
won the hole by two strokes


5
a
: an awkward position or circumstance : FIX
got the rebels out of a hole at the battle—Kenneth Roberts

b
: a position of owing or losing money
$10 million in the hole

raising money to get out of the hole
All you're doing is summarizing what a hole can be, you're not thinking about the specific definition of what makes a hole a hole. Not every definition in the dictionary is correctly explained. But yes, I obviously know what the dictionary definition is already. I explained the importance of this in my previous comment, to understand what nothing truly is, but you seem to want to ignore that. Fine, you do you, but you haven't convinced me of anything.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
All you're doing is summarizing what a hole can be, you're not thinking about the specific definition of what makes a hole a hole. Not every definition in the dictionary is correctly explained. But yes, I obviously know what the dictionary definition is already. I explained the importance of this in my previous comment, to understand what nothing truly is, but you seem to want to ignore that. Fine, you do you, but you haven't convinced me of anything.

Well, are you trying to define what a "hole" is or what "nothing" is?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Reading the solution of the paradox adds context to the paradox, which based on your argument implies you only skim read it at best.
Nope. I read & understood it.
There's no paradox.
It seems that you're just uncomfortable
defining something by the absence of
material.
It's analogous to internal threads, whih
are defined by what's not there...other
than the shape of a void.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
Well, are you trying to define what a "hole" is or what "nothing" is?
Both.

Non-value hole= not being matter/dirt/etc. and not understanding how it could be any of those things.

Positive value hole = being available space and understanding why

To make it simpler, let's call a non-value hole a NV hole, and a positive value hole a PV hole.

NV holes and PV holes are both holes, but that's just like saying that squares and circles are both shapes, they're not the same thing, but they have similarities. In both types of holes, there is a non-understanding which exists, in NV holes it's the hole itself, and in PV holes it's the matter around the hole which can't be understood at the exact same time you're understanding the space in the hole.

In other words, if say you had 2 holes, one being a NV hole and another being a PV hole that were both circular shaped, the edges of the holes would be the same shape. But the NV hole would be just slightly larger in size than the PV hole because the measurements you would make in the NV hole would be within the dirt itself (or whatever matter the material is), but the PV hole would be measured within the empty space.

Now since I've defined what I'm talking about this much do you finally get it?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
The issue here is that you're not understanding the hole as being both the object around the hole and the air inside of the object at the same time.
I understand, I just disagree. You can perceive a hole in the manner you're choosing to, in which case you do have something of a paradox but that paradox doesn't cause any major issues in practice because people tend not to perceive holes in exactly the manner you're describing.

Because when you're trying to understand air, you are understanding the inside of the object as a positive value, but when you're understanding the object and not the air within, you're understanding the air within as a non-value.
I think it's more considering the air as a default value. If you put something with a hole in it under water, the air is replaced with water. If you put the object in a true vacuum, the hole will have literally nothing in it. In either case, the hole itself hasn't conceptually changed, what is in it will depend on what the "default" environment currently is.

As I said, in practice, we tend to perceive holes as properties of objects rather than objects in their own right. That can certainly lead to some syntactic oddities (which is normal, especially in English), but nothing that can't be understood with appropriate context. I'm not saying your paradox is wrong as such, only that it isn't as significant as you're making it out to be. It's an interesting academic thought experiment but little more.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Both.

Non-value hole= not being matter/dirt/etc. and not understanding how it could be any of those things.

Positive value hole = being available space and understanding why

To make it simpler, let's call a non-value hole a NV hole, and a positive value hole a PV hole.

NV holes and PV holes are both holes, but that's just like saying that squares and circles are both shapes, they're not the same thing, but they have similarities. In both types of holes, there is a non-understanding which exists, in NV holes it's the hole itself, and in PV holes it's the matter around the hole which can't be understood at the exact same time you're understanding the space in the hole.

In other words, if say you had 2 holes, one being a NV hole and another being a PV hole that were both circular shaped, the edges of the holes would be the same shape. But the NV hole would be just slightly larger in size than the PV hole because the measurements you would make in the NV hole would be within the dirt itself (or whatever matter the material is), but the PV hole would be measured within the empty space.

Now since I've defined what I'm talking about this much do you finally get it?

I think I can get what you're saying, although I can't really tell if it's anything beyond a simple semantic issue regarding the definition of words and concepts.

Let's say we have a hole in the ground, 10 feet deep and 10 feet across, circular in shape. Let's say we imagine a 1 cubic foot space in the middle (5 feet down, 5 feet across, in the middle of the air). Are you saying that 1 cubic foot of space would be a PV hole, in and of itself?
 

Echogem222

Active Member
I think I can get what you're saying, although I can't really tell if it's anything beyond a simple semantic issue regarding the definition of words and concepts.
Yes, that is what I'm saying, it's only a paradox to those who don't understand what the word nothing actually means.

Let's say we have a hole in the ground, 10 feet deep and 10 feet across, circular in shape. Let's say we imagine a 1 cubic foot space in the middle (5 feet down, 5 feet across, in the middle of the air). Are you saying that 1 cubic foot of space would be a PV hole, in and of itself?
Yes, because you're only thinking of that 1 cubic ft of space, not the rest of the PV hole at the same time.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
If it takes an hour for three people to dig a hole, how long would it take one person to dig half a hole?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
(Note: Many people only skim read this post, or only read the paradox part, thinking, "oh, I get it, this isn't a paradox!" Then comment without even reading the whole post, not understanding the correct context of the paradox because the solution to the paradox helps with understanding the right context. I know this because I've posted this post on other websites, and because that's what people have already done in this thread.)

The Paradox (edited for clarity):

The hole paradox arises from a misconception about the nature of empty space. While a hole might initially seem to be just empty space, it is not a true void but rather a space defined by its lack of something, such as the absence of material or substance. This leads to a paradox: How can we define a hole as a type of nothing when empty space itself is considered a positive value?

In traditional ontology, objects are typically defined by their properties and characteristics. However, a hole lacks these defining properties and exists as a space where something could be, but isn't. This raises the question: How can something that appears to be nothing have properties?

This paradox challenges our understanding of identity and existence by highlighting the complexities of defining and understanding concepts that are defined by their negation or absence.

+++

Solution:
A "hole" is a word which is used for two different things, but people often think you can use the word hole to mean both of those two different things at the same time (which is the absence of dirt and the ground around the hole affecting the value of the hole).

In math, a hole would not be the dirt around the hole when trying to figure out how much dirt you have in a certain space, it would be 0 (because you cannot understand it as being dirt). But if you're trying to figure out how much space you have available, it would be a positive value (something you understand as being available space), and the dirt would be 0 (something you don't understand as being available space). However, in the case of the hole being a positive value in math, the dirt around the hole would be right next to the borders of the hole, giving the dimensions needed to understand the amount of space in the hole via math formulas. But even in that situation, the dirt is not something you understand as a positive value, it's the exact point that you can't understand which causes you to "see" the dimensions of the hole via the max limit of the space available (the edges of the space).

But if you mix those two types of holes up, you see it as both a positive and non-value, or in other words, a type of nothing you understand, which is illogical because nothing is the absence of understanding.

I see no practical value in defining a hole as a positive value. It is like arbitrarily defining a hole within a hole.
You can do it, but why. You do so to create your paradox which you've done for yourself.

The paradox comes from you choosing to define a hole as two different things and then trying to argue they should be equal when they are not.

1714322801499.png
 

Echogem222

Active Member
I understand, I just disagree. You can perceive a hole in the manner you're choosing to, in which case you do have something of a paradox but that paradox doesn't cause any major issues in practice because people tend not to perceive holes in exactly the manner you're describing.

I think it's more considering the air as a default value. If you put something with a hole in it under water, the air is replaced with water. If you put the object in a true vacuum, the hole will have literally nothing in it. In either case, the hole itself hasn't conceptually changed, what is in it will depend on what the "default" environment currently is.
No, you're assuming that it's possible to have a hole with truly nothing in it in the way you understand nothing, but this true nothingness is your misunderstanding of what nothing means, which is non-understanding of it being something you understand. Even a hole with no air, water, etc. in it, just empty space still has a positive value when you think of how much space you have available. That's why you need to understand the context when you are understanding things correctly.

As I said, in practice, we tend to perceive holes as properties of objects rather than objects in their own right. That can certainly lead to some syntactic oddities (which is normal, especially in English), but nothing that can't be understood with appropriate context. I'm not saying your paradox is wrong as such, only that it isn't as significant as you're making it out to be. It's an interesting academic thought experiment but little more.
Then let me ask you, but what do you define as nothing?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, you're assuming that it's possible to have a hole with truly nothing in it in the way you understand nothing, but this true nothingness is your misunderstanding of what nothing means, which is non-understanding of it being something you understand. Even a hole with no air, water, etc. in it, just empty space still has a positive value when you think of how much space you have available. That's why you need to understand the context when you are understanding things correctly.


Then let me ask you, but what do you define as nothing?

So, in other words, the hole is an empty space which is available when thinking of how much space is available. Even if there's "nothing" in the space right now, the space itself is "something" because you could put something there if you wanted to. Is that what you're getting at?

Maybe another analogy would be struggling to find an empty space in a crowded parking lot. Driving around, looking for a spot and finally finding one that's empty. That would be something.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
So, in other words, the hole is an empty space which is available when thinking of how much space is available. Even if there's "nothing" in the space right now, the space itself is "something" because you could put something there if you wanted to. Is that what you're getting at?

Maybe another analogy would be struggling to find an empty space in a crowded parking lot. Driving around, looking for a spot and finally finding one that's empty. That would be something.
Yes, exactly.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
No, you're assuming that it's possible to have a hole with truly nothing in it in the way you understand nothing, but this true nothingness is your misunderstanding of what nothing means, which is non-understanding of it being something you understand.
I probably shouldn't have used the word "nothing" in the true vacuum example. Change that to "if you put the object in a true vacuum, the hole will have a true vacuum in it".

Even a hole with no air, water, etc. in it, just empty space still has a positive value when you think of how much space you have available.
The hole has "value" conceptually, but it's still not a physical object in it's own right, it is a property of the object with the hole in it.

That's why you need to understand the context when you are understanding things correctly.
But you're describing it in abstract so there is no specific context. My point is that there isn't a singular conclusion to the paradox precisely because context determines how (and if) it exists.

Then let me ask you, but what do you define as nothing?
Again, most words have multiple possible meanings depending on context. Etymologically speaking, it means "no thing(s)", so you need to know what those "things" could be for it to have any meaning.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
I probably shouldn't have used the word "nothing" in the true vacuum example. Change that to "if you put the object in a true vacuum, the hole will have a true vacuum in it".

The hole has "value" conceptually, but it's still not a physical object in it's own right, it is a property of the object with the hole in it.

But you're describing it in abstract so there is no specific context. My point is that there isn't a singular conclusion to the paradox precisely because context determines how (and if) it exists.

Again, most words have multiple possible meanings depending on context. Etymologically speaking, it means "no thing(s)", so you need to know what those "things" could be for it to have any meaning.
I've explained this to you as clearly as I reasonably can, and you still don't get it. So this does not mean you've won this debate, it just means I'm at a loss on how to communicate with you about this topic.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I've explained this to you as clearly as I reasonably can, and you still don't get it. So this does not mean you've won this debate, it just means I'm at a loss on how to communicate with you about this topic.
I'm pretty sure I understand what you're trying to say, I just disagree with you on some of the key concepts. This doesn't mean you've lost the debate, it just means you're at a loss on how to communicate with anyone about this topic. :cool:
 

Echogem222

Active Member
I'm pretty sure I understand what you're trying to say, I just disagree with you on some of the key concepts. This doesn't mean you've lost the debate, it just means you're at a loss on how to communicate with anyone about this topic. :cool:
You're assuming everyone in this thread didn't understand it, yet if you actually read the comments, you'd realize this is not true.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
You're assuming everyone in this thread didn't understand it, yet if you actually read the comments, you'd realize this is not true.
I'm not assuming anything. I recognise that several other people understand what you're saying but don't entirely agree on your conclusions, or at least are looking to expand on them, just like I am. The problem is your unwillingness to consider anything that you don't think entirely fits and validates your opinions. That isn't how philosophy is meant to work.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
I'm not assuming anything. I recognise that several other people understand what you're saying but don't entirely agree on your conclusions, or at least are looking to expand on them, just like I am. The problem is your unwillingness to consider anything that you don't think entirely fits and validates your opinions. That isn't how philosophy is meant to work.
No, that's not what I'm doing. What everyone else is doing is not giving me enough information for me to change my views. If you don't understand this, I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore.
 
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