Shia Qaim vs Shia Clergy

[InvestigateTruth]

(Shia Muslims and Baha'is only)

This is my summary regarding Recorded Shia Traditions about Qaim, in Bihar-alanwar, and other major Shia Books, versus what I have seen from mainstream Shia Clergy opinions on the subject of Qaim.


1. There are Recorded Traditions that describes when Imam Qaim rises, He says "God made Me a Messenger". There are many Shia Traditions that the Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant whereas, the mainstream Shia Clergy, rejects all these, and instead describes Qaim as just an Imam, who comes to conquer the world to establish Shia Islam:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/

2. The Recorded Traditions describes that, Qaim does not have a Worldly kingdom, and He does not uses weapons as through a guidance from a God, using weapons would be forbidden. His Sword has a power to speak, (similar to Jesus whose sword was His Words), and His proof is Revelations from Angel Jibraeel. When He rises, He would become imprisoned, cursed by people of east and west and His followers would be killed by Persians. His kingdom is Imamat and Messengership, and last only for 7 years, and in His time most people disbelieve in Him, whereas Mainstream Shia Clergy describes Qaim, as a Worldly Ruler, who comes to conquers the World, uses weapons, and in His lifetime, all people become Shia Muslims and the World become united:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-kingdom-of-qaim-and-jesus.184380/

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-proof-of-qaim.183890/

3. Many of the Recorded Traditions, explains 'explicitly' that, Day of Resurrection, is the Day that Qaim rises, to brings guidance by which the Dead (unbelievers) is raised to life in a spiritual sense. Whereas mainstream Shia rejects such Hadithes from infallible Imams and instead, they describe Day of Resurrection as a Day, that the Dead physically is resurrected:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...urrection-of-dead-and-day-of-judgment.182350/


4. The Recorded Traditions describe that Muhammad is the Last Prophet until Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of rise of Qaim. Whereas mainstream Shia clergy, rejects this belief, and instead insists that Muahmmad is the final Messenger and Quran is the final Book for ever:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...only-meaning-of-the-seal-and-the-last.182576/


5. Shia Traditions describes Qaim, as spiritual return of all previous Imams and Messengers, but mainstream shia Clergy rejects such traditions, and considers them false.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-of-prophets-and-imams-do-you-believe.182147/


6. There are many Shia Traditions, that when Qaim rises, even the Shias who considered thesemves as His follwers, reject and deny Him.

My conclusion is that the reasons for the rejection of Qaim, is due to misunderstandings regarding the above 5 points.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-qaim-the-mahdi.182050/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-rejection-of-qaim.183884/

 

[mojtaba]

In the name of Allah.

Qaim is indeed Imam Mahdi, the 12th Imam after the last Prophet of God, Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny).

Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny) said,

The Imams after me are 12, the first one of them is you, O Ali, and the last one is Qaim who Allah Ta'ala will conquer all the east and the west of the earth by his[Qa'im] hands.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p378)

(Shia Muslims and Baha'is only)

This is my summary regarding Recorded Shia Traditions about Qaim, in Bihar-alanwar, and other major Shia Books, versus what I have seen from mainstream Shia Clergy opinions on the subject of Qaim.

There were groups in the past that made fake traditions to prove their wrong and satanic beliefs and gather some folish followers for themselves.
So, there are recorded traditions that are indeed those fake traditions. So, 'we should analayze and recognize them carefully.

Baha'ullah is between those lairs who made fake traditions for proving himself. See, Baha'ullah and Bihar al-Anwar book

Notes,
1.If a tradition do not have a chain of the narrators or have the chain, but there are one or some lair narrators(those narrators who made fake traditions to prove their satanic believes) between the chain of the narrators, that tradition is a weak tradition which is not authentic and reliable.

2.If there are one or many strong traditions( authentic traditions which have a health chain of the narrators ) about a issue, these traditions reject those opposing weak and non-authentic ones and make us sure that those traditions are fake.

3. Holy Qur'an and strong/authentic traditions are the base.

1. There are Recorded Traditions that describes when Imam Qaim rises, He says "God made Me a Messenger". There are many Shia Traditions that the Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant whereas, the mainstream Shia Clergy, rejects all these, and instead describes Qaim as just an Imam, who comes to conquer the world to establish Shia Islam:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/

As I mentioned, Imam Mahdi is between 12 Imams after Prophet Muhammad and the last of them. So Qaim[i.e., Imam Mahdi] is an Imam. See ff strong traditions,

1.Imam al-Ridha[8th Imam](pbuh) has said,(see the chin of the narrators here)

"whoever says that Prophets are Lord, or [twelve] Imams are Lord or Prophet, we[i.e., 12 infallible Imams] would repudiate him/her in this world and in the Hereafter."
(source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 1, pg. 217)

2.Sadir has narrated,(see the full cahin of the narrators in the source)
I said to Imam Sadiq[7th Imam](peace be upon him), "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you(plural, because its Arabic text is کم which is plural and refers to 12 infallible Imams who are after Apostle Muhammad) are Messengers(رُسُل) and read to from the Holy Qur'an. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51).
The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger."
(source: Al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 269)

So, according to Shia authentic traditions, Imam Mahdi is not a Messanger and those who believe in such wrong thing, are indeed so misguided ones and do not follow the religion of Prophet Muhammad and Imams.

There are many Shia Traditions that the Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant whereas, the mainstream Shia Clergy, rejects all these, and instead describes Qaim as just an Imam, who comes to conquer the world to establish Shia Islam

Also there are many traditions that say that Qaim will rule according to Islamic laws and Holy Qur'an. But those traditions which say that Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant, does not mean he comes with new book besides Qur'an and new Law besides Islamic laws.

But those traditions mean that Qaim comes with the true Islam and true interpritation of Qur'an which were distorted by people before him. Indeed, in those traditions the term 'New' means 'True' and 'fresh' and also, 'without distortions', not another thing. See,

Through a valid chain of authority, it has been narrated that Shaykh Abu-`Amr, the first Emissary (safir) of Imam al-Mahdi (ajtfs)dictated the following prayer to Abu-Muhammad ibn Hammam and ordered him to say it [frequently]

(O, Allah!) Revive the signs of Your religion that were obliterated, and rectify Your laws that were altered and Your instructions that were changed,so that Your religion will be restored through him(i.e., al-Qa'im) and at his hands, fresh, new, and sound without any crookedness and without any heresy......... Therefore, O Allah, revive the Qur'an through Your representative(i.e., Imam Mahdi al-Qa'im) ...
(Source:Kamaluddin Wa Tamamul Ni'mah by Sheykh Saduq, pg. 514 and 515)

Imam Mahdi will act according to Qur'an and Sunnah of Prophet,

The Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.&h.f.) said:

"The Qa'im( Imam Mahdi ) is from my Progeny (sons). His name is my name. And his Kunniyat (agnomen) is my agnomen. And his appearance is my appearance. And his behavior is my behavior. He will establish among the people my practice and my shariat[i.e., Islamic teachings]. And he will call them towards the book of his Lord[Qur'an], the High and the Mighty. One who obeys him has obeyed me. And one who denies his 'Ghaibat' has denied me."
Source: Kamaaluddin, Vol.2, Pg.411

 

[mojtaba]

2. The Recorded Traditions describes that, Qaim does not have a Worldly kingdom, and He does not uses weapons as through a guidance from a God, using weapons would be forbidden. His Sword has a power to speak, (similar to Jesus whose sword was His Words), and His proof is Revelations from Angel Jibraeel. When He rises, He would become imprisoned, cursed by people of east and west and His followers would be killed by Persians. His kingdom is Imamat and Messengership, and last only for 7 years, and in His time most people disbelieve in Him, whereas Mainstream Shia Clergy describes Qaim, as a Worldly Ruler, who comes to conquers the World, uses weapons, and in His lifetime, all people become Shia Muslims and the World become united:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-kingdom-of-qaim-and-jesus.184380/

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-proof-of-qaim.183890/

1.You said, "The Recorded Traditions describes that, Qaim does not have a Worldly kingdom"

Are you lying? I myself said you the ff tradition, didn't I? Are you trying to misguide the others with satanic means?
Al-Thumali has narrated from Imam Sajjad, and Imam has narrated through his forefathers through Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny), who said the following,

The Imams after me are 12, the first one of them is you, O Ali, and the last one is al-Qa'im who Allah Ta'ala will conquer all the east and the west of the earth by his[Qa'im] hands.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p378)

And many other such this tradition in both Shia and Sunni authentic traditions.

2.Other part of your saying is like this lie. There are not any tradition that says that Qaim does not rise up with the weapon. See the ff tradition which is strong. Such this tradition has narrated through many chains of the narratrors,

Bashir has narrated,
I said to Imam Baghir[5th Imam],' Some people say that when Qaim rises up, the issues would be solved for him easily and he would not kill even one person.'
Then Imam said,' Never. By Allah if the issues were solved easily for an indivijual, certainly this would be for Prophet Muhammad. '
Imam continued, 'Never, by Allah, we and you would wipe Sweat and Blood[ie, the issue of Imam Mahdi and his followers would be with difficulty and wars ]'.
(Source, Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p358)

3. Many of the Recorded Traditions, explains 'explicitly' that, Day of Resurrection, is the Day that Qaim rises, to brings guidance by which the Dead (unbelievers) is raised to life in a spiritual sense. Whereas mainstream Shia rejects such Hadithes from infallible Imams and instead, they describe Day of Resurrection as a Day, that the Dead physically is resurrected:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...urrection-of-dead-and-day-of-judgment.182350/

This belief of Bahais clearly shows that they are not between Abrahimic religions, while they try to belong themselves to Prophet Abraham and Shia Imams. All the Abrahimic religion believe in the physical reviving of the dead in the Day of Resurrection.

There are only 2(not many) traditions which say that the day of rising of Qaim is Resurrection Day. As I mentioned in the thread which you have linked, those 2 traditions do not have a chain of the narrators. So they are weak and non-authentic. Also, there are numerous authentic traditions thereby it would be proved that the day of rising of Qaim is not Resurrection Day. See the link which the InvestigateTruth have linked.

Also, there are numerous Qur'anic verses which say that the reviving in the Day of Resurrection is physically. For instanse,

Chapter 75(Resurrection),

I swear by the Day of Resurrection! (1) And I swear by the self-critical soul! (2) Does man suppose that We will not put together his bones [at resurrection]? (3) Yes indeed, We are able to [re]shape [even] his fingertips! (4)

Chapter 36
He[the disbeliever] draws comparisons for Us, and forgets his own creation. He says, ‘Who shall revive the bones when they have decayed?’ (78) Say, ‘He will revive them who produced them the first time, and He has knowledge of all creation.

4. The Recorded Traditions describe that Muhammad is the Last Prophet until Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of rise of Qaim. Whereas mainstream Shia clergy, rejects this belief, and instead insists that Muahmmad is the final Messenger and Quran is the final Book for ever:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...only-meaning-of-the-seal-and-the-last.182576/

It was proved that the day of rising of Qaim is not the Day of Resurrection. So your saying is meaningless.

These following traditions are usefull,

Imam Baghir[5th Imam] said,(see the chain of the narrators in the source):
"Allah has sealed the heavenly books through your Book(Qur'an) and the Prophets through your Prophet"
(Source: al-Kafi by Koleyni, H 423, Ch. 3, h 3)

Imam Ridha(the 8th Imam) has said (see the chain of the narrators in the source),

Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger and .... and (Muhammad is) the Master of the Messengers, the Seal of Prophets and the best of the creatures,there will not be any prophet after him, and there will not be an alteration in his(Muhammad) Religion(Islam) and there will not be an alteration in his Shari'ah(Islamic Laws).
(Source: 'Uyoon al-Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Saduq, vol. 1, pg. 129)

5. Shia Traditions describes Qaim, as spiritual return of all previous Imams and Messengers, but mainstream shia Clergy rejects such traditions, and considers them false.
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-of-prophets-and-imams-do-you-believe.182147/

No. Shia scholars do not reject such these authentic traditions. Also, it should be said that those traditions say that Imam Mahdi is the Representative of all heavenly mans, i.e., previous Prophets and Imams(peace be upon all of them) and this is not only for Qaim. Other previous 11 Imams were also like Qaim in this case.

Imam Jafa Sadiq said:
"And our master, Imam Qaim (a.s.) would be standing, resting his back to the Kaaba. And he will say: O people, whoever wants to see Adam and Sheeth, should know that I am Adam and Sheeth. And whoever wants to see Nuh and his son, Saam, should know that I am that same Nuh and Saam. And whoever wants to see Ibrahim and Ismail, should know that I am that same Ibrahim and Ismail.....

6. There are many Shia Traditions, that when Qaim rises, even the Shias who considered thesemves as His follwers, reject and deny Him.

My conclusion is that the reasons for the rejection of Qaim, is due to misunderstandings regarding the above 5 points.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-qaim-the-mahdi.182050/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-rejection-of-qaim.183884/

Traditions say that Shias are between the best Companions of Qaim. Do not deceive the others,

Imam Sadiq said about the verse of Quran, 'Alif, Lam, Mim. (1) This is the Book, there is no doubt in it, a guidance to the Godwary, (2) who believe in the Unseen' that,
"The Godwaries are the Shiites of Ali[the first Imam], and the Unseen is Qaim."
(Source, Kamaluddin, pg 340)

But Bahais, who have believed in a false mahdi, i.e. Bab, are also between those who will reject Qaim.[i.e., those Bahais who will not accept the true Imam Mahdi, not all of them]

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

(Shia Muslims and Baha'is only)

This is my summary regarding Recorded Shia Traditions about Qaim, in Bihar-alanwar, and other major Shia Books, versus what I have seen from mainstream Shia Clergy opinions on the subject of Qaim.


1. There are Recorded Traditions that describes when Imam Qaim rises, He says "God made Me a Messenger". There are many Shia Traditions that the Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant whereas, the mainstream Shia Clergy, rejects all these, and instead describes Qaim as just an Imam, who comes to conquer the world to establish Shia Islam:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/

2. The Recorded Traditions describes that, Qaim does not have a Worldly kingdom, and He does not uses weapons as through a guidance from a God, using weapons would be forbidden. His Sword has a power to speak, (similar to Jesus whose sword was His Words), and His proof is Revelations from Angel Jibraeel. When He rises, He would become imprisoned, cursed by people of east and west and His followers would be killed by Persians. His kingdom is Imamat and Messengership, and last only for 7 years, and in His time most people disbelieve in Him, whereas Mainstream Shia Clergy describes Qaim, as a Worldly Ruler, who comes to conquers the World, uses weapons, and in His lifetime, all people become Shia Muslims and the World become united:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-kingdom-of-qaim-and-jesus.184380/

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-proof-of-qaim.183890/

3. Many of the Recorded Traditions, explains 'explicitly' that, Day of Resurrection, is the Day that Qaim rises, to brings guidance by which the Dead (unbelievers) is raised to life in a spiritual sense. Whereas mainstream Shia rejects such Hadithes from infallible Imams and instead, they describe Day of Resurrection as a Day, that the Dead physically is resurrected:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...urrection-of-dead-and-day-of-judgment.182350/


4. The Recorded Traditions describe that Muhammad is the Last Prophet until Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of rise of Qaim. Whereas mainstream Shia clergy, rejects this belief, and instead insists that Muahmmad is the final Messenger and Quran is the final Book for ever:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...only-meaning-of-the-seal-and-the-last.182576/


5. Shia Traditions describes Qaim, as spiritual return of all previous Imams and Messengers, but mainstream shia Clergy rejects such traditions, and considers them false.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-of-prophets-and-imams-do-you-believe.182147/


6. There are many Shia Traditions, that when Qaim rises, even the Shias who considered thesemves as His follwers, reject and deny Him.

My conclusion is that the reasons for the rejection of Qaim, is due to misunderstandings regarding the above 5 points.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-qaim-the-mahdi.182050/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-rejection-of-qaim.183884/

Funny isn't it. You give links to other threads to prove your false summaries and then when I click on those links I see that you have been caught making false statements there too and imposing your own interpretations on Shia traditions and completely ignoring other traditions that contradict your flawed reasoning. I believe you have inherited this attitude from your leader Baha'u'llah who had a habit of continuously forging Shia traditions in a vain attempt to prove who he is (the Kitab-i Iqan is filled with these)

Since you have brought up the topic of Baha'ism again, I have a question to ask you: How in heaven's sake can you believe in a Prophet (he calls himself God) who believed in alchemy:

“For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold,” Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 157.​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)." Quran 7:34


"...This matter (the appearance of Qaim) has a precise time that it must reach. If it reaches its time, it will occur neither an hour sooner nor an hour later.”

http://www.shiavault.com/books/the-promised-mahdi-part-two/chapters/1-26



"The Messenger of Allah said: "At the end of the time of my people (ummah), the Mahdi will appear...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

BTW, Baha'is believe in spontaneous generation then expect us to believe their false statements about the Mahdi:

“Know that the creatures are of many kinds . . . some are created in wombs others [are created] by spontaneous generation (khalq al-sa`a) and come into existence by themselves, such as the animals that are created in fruits, and a group are created in eggs. These are the types of creation of [living] things,” `Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 24​

In case you don't know what spontaneous generation is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation

 

[InvestigateTruth]

BTW, Baha'is believe in spontaneous generation then expect us to believe their false statements about the Mahdi:

“Know that the creatures are of many kinds . . . some are created in wombs others [are created] by spontaneous generation (khalq al-sa`a) and come into existence by themselves, such as the animals that are created in fruits, and a group are created in eggs. These are the types of creation of [living] things,” `Abdu’l-Baha, Makatib (Egypt), vol. 2, p. 24​

In case you don't know what spontaneous generation is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation

Can you stick with the topic of the thread? What does this have anything to do with the topic?

Copying from Anti-Baha'i Sources? with wrong translation and misinterpretation does not help you my friend.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Can you stick with the topic of the thread? What does this have anything to do with the topic?

Copying from Anti-Baha'i Sources? with wrong translation and misinterpretation does not help you my friend.

I have double checked the translation and it is accurate. Here is the the original text in Persian directly from the Baha'i library which clearly shows you are trying to make false statements again:

http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/MA2/images/24.gif

interestingly Abdu'l-Baha uses the exact equivalent of spontaneous generation in Farsi which is Khalq al-Sa'a خلق الساعه

effectively making it impossible for Baha'is to claim Abdu'l-Baha's statement has been distorted or misrepresented.

Have a nice day

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have double checked the translation and it is accurate. Here is the the original text in Persian directly from the Baha'i library which clearly shows you are trying to make false statements again:

http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/ab/MA2/images/24.gif

interestingly Abdu'l-Baha uses the exact equivalent of spontaneous generation in Farsi which is Khalq al-Sa'a خلق الساعه

effectively making it impossible for Baha'is to claim Abdu'l-Baha's statement has been distorted or misrepresented.

Have a nice day

Please stay in the Topic. I am not going to reply to anything that has not to do with the topic, as that would derail the thread.

Have a Good Nite.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In the name of Allah.

Qaim is indeed Imam Mahdi, the 12th Imam after the last Prophet of God, Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny).

Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny) said,

The Imams after me are 12, the first one of them is you, O Ali, and the last one is Qaim who Allah Ta'ala will conquer all the east and the west of the earth by his[Qa'im] hands.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p378)


There were groups in the past that made fake traditions to prove their wrong and satanic beliefs and gather some folish followers for themselves.
So, there are recorded traditions that are indeed those fake traditions. So, 'we should analayze and recognize them carefully.

Baha'ullah is between those lairs who made fake traditions for proving himself. See, Baha'ullah and Bihar al-Anwar book

Notes,
1.If a tradition do not have a chain of the narrators or have the chain, but there are one or some lair narrators(those narrators who made fake traditions to prove their satanic believes) between the chain of the narrators, that tradition is a weak tradition which is not authentic and reliable.

2.If there are one or many strong traditions( authentic traditions which have a health chain of the narrators ) about a issue, these traditions reject those opposing weak and non-authentic ones and make us sure that those traditions are fake.

3. Holy Qur'an and strong/authentic traditions are the base.


As I mentioned, Imam Mahdi is between 12 Imams after Prophet Muhammad and the last of them. So Qaim[i.e., Imam Mahdi] is an Imam. See ff strong traditions,

1.Imam al-Ridha[8th Imam](pbuh) has said,(see the chin of the narrators here)

"whoever says that Prophets are Lord, or [twelve] Imams are Lord or Prophet, we[i.e., 12 infallible Imams] would repudiate him/her in this world and in the Hereafter."
(source, Oyun Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Sadugh, vol. 1, pg. 217)

2.Sadir has narrated,(see the full cahin of the narrators in the source)
I said to Imam Sadiq[7th Imam](peace be upon him), "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you(plural, because its Arabic text is کم which is plural and refers to 12 infallible Imams who are after Apostle Muhammad) are Messengers(رُسُل) and read to from the Holy Qur'an. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51).
The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger."
(source: Al-Kafi by Koleyni, vol. 1, pg. 269)

So, according to Shia authentic traditions, Imam Mahdi is not a Messanger and those who believe in such wrong thing, are indeed so misguided ones and do not follow the religion of Prophet Muhammad and Imams.

Also there are many traditions that say that Qaim will rule according to Islamic laws and Holy Qur'an. But those traditions which say that Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant, does not mean he comes with new book besides Qur'an and new Law besides Islamic laws.

But those traditions mean that Qaim comes with the true Islam and true interpritation of Qur'an which were distorted by people before him. Indeed, in those traditions the term 'New' means 'True' and 'fresh' and also, 'without distortions', not another thing. See,

Through a valid chain of authority, it has been narrated that Shaykh Abu-`Amr, the first Emissary (safir) of Imam al-Mahdi (ajtfs)dictated the following prayer to Abu-Muhammad ibn Hammam and ordered him to say it [frequently]

(O, Allah!) Revive the signs of Your religion that were obliterated, and rectify Your laws that were altered and Your instructions that were changed,so that Your religion will be restored through him(i.e., al-Qa'im) and at his hands, fresh, new, and sound without any crookedness and without any heresy......... Therefore, O Allah, revive the Qur'an through Your representative(i.e., Imam Mahdi al-Qa'im) ...
(Source:Kamaluddin Wa Tamamul Ni'mah by Sheykh Saduq, pg. 514 and 515)

Imam Mahdi will act according to Qur'an and Sunnah of Prophet,

The Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.&h.f.) said:

"The Qa'im( Imam Mahdi ) is from my Progeny (sons). His name is my name. And his Kunniyat (agnomen) is my agnomen. And his appearance is my appearance. And his behavior is my behavior. He will establish among the people my practice and my shariat[i.e., Islamic teachings]. And he will call them towards the book of his Lord[Qur'an], the High and the Mighty. One who obeys him has obeyed me. And one who denies his 'Ghaibat' has denied me."
Source: Kamaaluddin, Vol.2, Pg.411

1. There is not just 1 or 2 Hadithes that denotes, The Day of Resurrection, is the Day of Rising of Qaim. There are Many Hadithes that shows Day of Resurrection Is Day of Rise of Qaim. How could one ignore all these Hadithes and claim that is weak?
It is reasonable to say when same concept is seen in different Hadithes, it cannot be called unreliable. Moreover, it is ultiumately dependent upon Qaim, to confirmif these Hadithesare true.

2. There is not only 1 or 2 Hadithes tha shows Qaim is a Messenger. There are many of such Hadithes....


Point 1 and 2 are already discussed in previous threads and the links are available if you want to count the number of Hadithes.



When the Mainstream Shia Clergy claims that all these Hadithes are false, or they have other meanings, How can people know if they are Not like, the Religious leaders who mislead people from accepting Jesus as a Prophet, or accepting Muhammad as a Prophet in the bygone Ages?
Did not the Jewish Religious Leaders misguided the Jewish people at their time from accepting the Truth of Messiah?
Did not those leaders at the time of Muhammad, misguided their people?

Now, does not Shia Hadithes states that the Religious leaders of the time of Qaim are the most evil and they fight with Qaim using Quran?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Please stay in the Topic. I am not going to reply to anything that has not to do with the topic, as that would derail the thread.

Have a Good Nite.

Perfectly on topic. When you write false statements about Shia Islam and continuously distort Shia traditions to propagate your agenda, you are forcing me to show the true tenants of Baha'ism so that people would understand the background you are coming from. As for your hatred towards the Shia clergy, well this also stems from Baha'u'llah who would refer to the Shia clergy as donkeys with big turbans:

“Protect yourself so that from the donkey enemies, those with large turbans do not turn you away from (Baha'ism)...” (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 2, no. 83, p. 504)​

 

[mojtaba]

Imam Sadiq(peace be upon him),
" Of the deaths of the true believers the one that Satan loves most is the death of a Faqih(a scholar that has a deep understanding of Islam), one who has very good understand of religion and its laws."
(Kafi, v1,p38)

Imam Sadiq(peace be upon him),
When the scholar dies it takes away his knowledge and after this the unjust ones come and they go astray and mislead people.
(Kafi,v1,p38)

Imam Sadiq(peace be upon him),
"When a true believer who is a Faqih, dies, it causes an irreparable damage in the Islamic system."
(Kafi, v1, p38)

Imam Baqir(peace be upon him),
"The true believing Fuqaha, people of proper understanding in religion and its laws are the strongholds of the Islamic system just as the fortress around a city is a stronghold for it."
(Kafi,v1,p38)

 

[mojtaba]

1. There is not just 1 or 2 Hadithes that denotes, The Day of Resurrection, is the Day of Rising of Qaim. There are Many Hadithes that shows Day of Resurrection Is Day of Rise of Qaim. How could one ignore all these Hadithes and claim that is weak?
It is reasonable to say when same concept is seen in different Hadithes, it cannot be called unreliable. Moreover, it is ultiumately dependent upon Qaim, to confirm if these Hadithes are true.

Please say the truth. Only 2 non-authentic Hadiths say that the Day of Resurrection is the day of rising of Qaim, while some other authentic Hadiths say that they are two different days.

Here is my answers to the issue in the related thread.

Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: The Resurrection of 'Dead' and Day of Judgment, post#6

Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: The Resurrection of 'Dead' and Day of Judgment, post#9

Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: The Resurrection of 'Dead' and Day of Judgment, post#12

2. There is not only 1 or 2 Hadithes tha shows Qaim is a Messenger. There are many of such Hadithes....

Point 1 and 2 are already discussed in previous threads and the links are available if you want to count the number of Hadithes.

Only there are one Hadith that I have answered to it here.

When the Mainstream Shia Clergy claims that all these Hadithes are false, or they have other meanings, How can people know if they are Not like, the Religious leaders who mislead people from accepting Jesus as a Prophet, or accepting Muhammad as a Prophet in the bygone Ages?
Did not the Jewish Religious Leaders misguided the Jewish people at their time from accepting the Truth of Messiah?
Did not those leaders at the time of Muhammad, misguided their people?

Now, does not Shia Hadithes states that the Religious leaders of the time of Qaim are the most evil and they fight with Qaim using Quran?

So, Shia scholars are better than your Prophet. Because according to your slander, Shia scholars chainge the meaning of the traditions. But your Prophet, Baha'ullah, not only changed the meaning of the traditions, but also made the fake Hadiths and claimed that they are in Shia sources of Hadiths. See, Baha'ullah and Bihar al-Anwar book

I believe because Shia Scholars was saying the truth to the people, so that Baha'ullah called them donkey and ordered his followers to protect themselves from them and do not hear to their sayings.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mojtaba has quoted the following Hadith, to show that the Qaim is supposed to conquer the World as Worldly Ruler through use of Weapons:



The Imams after me are 12, the first one of them is you, O Ali, and the last one is al-Qa'im who Allah Ta'ala will conquer all the east and the west of the earth by his[Qa'im] hands.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p378)



My reply:


Firstly, when did the Imams said, these Hadithes are to be interpreted literally?
Secondly, it was shown in the other Thread titled 'Kingdom of Qaim and Kingdom of Jesus', that the Kingdom of Qaim, just like Jesus is Not Worldy.



Now, Mojtaba emphasised that, in the Hadith, the Qaim concquers the World 'By His Hands' as a proof, that Qaim is a Worldy Conquarer.


Notice, that would be the case, only if one reads the Hadith literally, without considering other Hadithes that shows Qaim does not have a Worldy kingdom.


I quote 2 other Hadithes, that shows, by the term His hands is meant, His Spiritual power and Knowledge, and by the term Conquer it is meant, ''His Religion and Knowledge' conquers the World:



In Al-Kafi Vol 1:
H 21, Ch. 1, h 21

Abu Ja‘far (a.s) has said the following.

"When al-Qa’im, (the one who will rise with Divine Authority) the guardian, of our family will appear from occultation, Allah will place His hand over the heads of His servants and, thus, He place their intelligence together and complete their understanding."


Also, in Bihar recorded that, Imam Sadiq said:

“The Qaim from us will be aided by awe and helped with divine assistance. The earth will fold up for him and the treasures will be exposed for him. His dominions will be in the east and the west and through him will Allah, the Mighty and Sublime make His religion dominate over all religions even though the polytheists hate this. Then no ruin will remain in the earth, but that he will restore it. And the spirit of Allah, Isa bin Maryam (a.s.) will come down and pray behind him.



It is obvious, that from these Two Hadithes, it is the Religion of God that makes Progress in the east and west, as we are Witness, though Thousands of Mainstream Clergy raised against the Baha'I Faith, yet, it has been progressing in the east and west, and Day by Day, makes more progress.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

when did the Imams said, these Hadithes are to be interpreted literally?...

Again investigate truth is imposing his own interpretation on obvious Hadiths. He is following his leader Baha'u'llah who forged many Shia hadiths, distorted others, and when the hadith's explicitly contradicted his wishful interprerations or were incompatible with his beliefs, claimed that they should not be read 'literally'.

It is obvious, that from these Two Hadithes, it is the Religion of God that makes Progress in the east and west, as we are Witness, though Thousands of Mainstream Clergy raised against the Baha'I Faith, yet, it has been progressing in the east and west, and Day by Day, makes more progress.

I had good laugh at this. Baha'is have been caught again and again making false statements about Baha'i population and growth. There is a comprehensive study here where Abdu'l-Baha has been exposed:
https://books.google.com/books?id=L...e&q=exaggeration of Baha'i population&f=false

And current day exaggerations can be found here:
http://bahaicensusindia.blogspot.com/

Investigatetruth is simply following that same ruse here. In case you didn't know my dear friend, the Baha'i 'ENTRY BY TROOPS' has effectively turned into 'EXODUS BY TROOPS'

Good day and well wishes

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Perfectly on topic. When you write false statements about Shia Islam and continuously distort Shia traditions to propagate your agenda, you are forcing me to show the true tenants of Baha'ism so that people would understand the background you are coming from. As for your hatred towards the Shia clergy, well this also stems from Baha'u'llah who would refer to the Shia clergy as donkeys with big turbans:

“Protect yourself so that from the donkey enemies, those with large turbans do not turn you away from (Baha'ism)...” (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 2, no. 83, p. 504)​

Oh God, the Topic is really about the Qaim as described in Shia Books, and if the Shia Clergy view is consistent with Recoded Tradition of Imams.


What you have quoted, is how, the Anti-Baha'I Sites try to misrepresent the Baha'I Faith. I am not going to derail the thread, but in Baha'I Forums, that accusation and misreprentation was addressed:

http://bahaiforums.com/general-discussion/12283-my-take-controversy.html




My hope is that the Shia Clergy be able to become friends with Baha'is, and just because we have different beliefs, do not think of Baha'is as theri Enemies. In Western countries, though the majority of people are not Muslim and mostly Christians, yet, the Muslims can have their Mosques, teach their Faith, prectice it....but in Iran, unfortunately Baha'is are not given such rights, and are not treated equally.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Oh God, the Topic is really about the Qaim as described in Shia Books, and if the Shia Clergy view is consistent with Recoded Tradition of Imams.


What you have quoted, is how, the Anti-Baha'I Sites try to misrepresent the Baha'I Faith. I am not going to derail the thread, but in Baha'I Forums, that accusation and misreprentation was addressed:

http://bahaiforums.com/general-discussion/12283-my-take-controversy.html




My hope is that the Shia Clergy be able to become friends with Baha'is, and just because we have different beliefs, do not think of Baha'is as theri Enemies. In Western countries, though the majority of people are not Muslim and mostly Christians, yet, the Muslims can have their Mosques, teach their Faith, prectice it....but in Iran, unfortunately Baha'is are not given such rights, and are not treated equally.

"ANTI-BAHAI" the more you repeat that word, the weaker your arguments become. If you had any reasonable answer towards criticism, you could have provided it instead of shooting the messenger and calling them "anti-Baha'i". In fact, instead of addressing the argument you address the person making the argument.

BTW, the link you provided was meaningless. Of course I expected that attitude from you, continuously providing links claiming so and so has been proved there and when one refers to them it is observed that nothing has been proved...

 

[mojtaba]

I believe that the thread should be changed to Shia Qaim VS liar Bab.

1.According to numerous traditions, in both Shia and Sunni authentic sources, Qaim is an Arab. But Bab was an Iranian.

2.According to countless authentic traditions, Qaim is the son of Imam Hasan Askari. But Bab was not and he was the son of Muhammad Reza.

3.Qaim(son of Imam Hasan Askari) was born at 256AH, But Bab was born at 1235AH.

4.According to many traditions, Qaim is alive during his occultation and the begining of his minor occultation was 260AH. But Bab(1235AH-1266AH) was not born during occultation of Qaim, from 260AH to 1235AH.

And so on......

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mojaba worte: 1.According to numerous traditions, in both Shia and Sunni authentic sources, Qaim is an Arab. But Bab was an Iranian.

My Reply: True, Qaim is an Arab in a sense that His lineage goes to the Prophet through Imam Hussein. In another Words, His genealogy is a pure lineage, which goes back to the Prophet, who was Arab.

However Both Shia and Sunni have a Hadith that, the Prophet said the following:

"...I swear by the One in whose hand is my soul, if faith were to be suspended at the Pleiades some men from the Persians will attain it.”


Source: Islamic Republic of Iran and the End Times (Aakhir uz-Zaman) || Imam Reza (A.S.) Network


In Bihar it is recorded that, Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:

“There will be a very few Arabs with the Qaim (a.s.).”

Mohtaba wrote: 2.According to countless authentic traditions, Qaim is the son of Imam Hasan Askari. But Bab was not and he was the son of Muhammad Reza.

My Reply: True. However, all the Imams, were considered Son of Muhammad. The Term 'Son' in Hadithes, does not always mean literally the same Son as we understand according to biology. Otherwise how could, for example Imam Sadiq be considered Son of Muhammad?

That the Son of Imam Askari was called Qaim is true. However, At the time of reappearance, a new Person, who has identical spiritual power and qualities was to rise. I have already shown in the thread called 'In what kind of Rajat do you believe", that by reappearance of the Qaim, is meant, 'Reappearance of the same spiritual power' in a new Person.
The Imams did not say, they were speaking literally! Their Hadithes with regards to rise of Qaim are ambiguous. Did not the Imams say, Our Hadithes are extremely difficult, Only an angel from Heaven can understand....?

Mojtaba wrote: 3.Qaim(son of Imam Hasan Askari) was born at 256AH, But Bab was born at 1235AH.

My Reply: According to many Hadithes, the Qaim at the time of reappearance is a young man.
In the Holy Books, 'return' or 'reappearance' of a Prophet is in a spiritual sense. We have already seen an example of that. Elijah returned as John the Baptist.

You can read pages 40-47 of the following book for a list of Hadithes, that Qaim at the time of Rising is a younge man:

https://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/authors/gulpaygani/Kitab_Faraid_1_99.pdf

This proves, Return of Son of Imam Askari, is a spiritual return.

Mojtaba: 4.According to many traditions, Qaim is alive during his occultation and the begining of his minor occultation was 260AH. But Bab(1235AH-1266AH) was not born during occultation of Qaim, from 260AH to 1235AH.

My Reply: You are aware that the Imams said, the believers never die, and are always alive. That they have said Qaim, Son of Imam is alive, it is in a spiritual sense.
Notice, the Imams have said, the Qaim, has a long life, like Noah. However, the long life of Noah, is also spiritual. These are ambiguous verses and Hadithes.
The Purposes of the Prophet and Imams of speaking ambiguous, was to test Shias at the time of Qaim.
If these Hadithes were simply to be interpreted literally, why would the Imams say "Our Hadithes are extremely difficult, Only an Angel from Heaven can bear them"??

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You people fool no one by labeling any fact that contradicts your leaders claims as "spiritual" or "not to be read literally".
Oh well let's continue with some more scientific blunders from Baha'i leaders. Abdu'l-Baha didn't have a clue about physics and claims both concave and convex mirrors focus heat in a single real point:

“Like sunlight that does not have a complete effect on a flat mirror, but when it shines on a concave or convex mirror, all its heat is focused in a single point and the heat of that point will become stronger than fire,” `Abd al-Hamid Ishraq Khawari, Ayyam tis`a, p. 324​

So much for the fourth Baha'i principle of conformity of religion with science and reason...