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Shakespeare?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
When I was doing high school Shakespeare some of it was simply straightforward, and some I had to bog my way through, but perhaps the important thing is that I enjoyed it. I also had a sponge memory so I could take the parts I liked with me.
I read the passage then line by line or line-group by group, I paraphrased the lines with a moment or two's thought about how best to convey the intent of the words as I perceived it. It was considered, not instant, in other words, but it wasn't hard.

But above you said, "I cannot even tell what the movies are saying after the first couple of minutes".

If you don't mind my asking, did you have any problem with lectures? With the TV news? With your tech books? What kind of fiction do you like to read? In what areas is it a problem?

No, I have no problems with lectures (although I have not heard any in Elizabethan English). None with TV news. None with technical readings. I read less fiction than I used to, but I go from Umberto Ecco to Milan Kundera, to Octavia Butler. I am fine with the plays of Ibsen to those of Aeschylus. I enjoy Sam Shepard plays. I have never read much poetry, often finding it flat and unmoving or simply not meaningful.

Shakespeare is unusual because his writings are so singular in this.

I have a LOT of trouble understanding the words of music. It is rare that I know the words to a song, even one I enjoy. And I find that I have very little music seeking behavior. What I do listen to (infrequently) is instrumental (Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovaski). I don't like Bach very much, but that might be PTSD from early church experiences.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The other thing that commonly makes reading Shakespeare difficult is his choice of word order. He quite often changes the natural sentence order for one of two purposes -- to get words into the right "place" within the blank verse, or simply to add a bit of stress or tension. So, in Merchant for example (in the ante-penultimate scene), when Graziano says "That will I do," it is a change in putting the object of the sentence before the subject and verb (we would normally say, "I'll do that"). This is a very, very common Shakespeare construct, and again, it's surprising how easily you can get used to it, if you encounter it a few times.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I agree but you need both, I think. If you just see it performed, cold, a lot goes over your head first time round. We used to read scenes aloud in class, with different people taking different parts, then stop and go over it, analysing the main speeches and discussing the imagery. So one had the challenge of trying to read out the words as an actor would, injecting the right stress to make it make sense. (I had to do Juliet's speech before she takes the sleeping draught, I remember.....bloody Tybalt, yet green in earth lies festering in his shroud.....madly play with my forefathers' joints......) Active participation was very helpful. And then we'd go and see it performed (or watch the Zeffirelli film, which came out that year, - ooh Olivia Hussey:blueheart::blueheart::blueheart:.... That film is the only time I've been in the cinema and an audible sigh went up at the end of the first half, when the lights came up. )
Don't you mean, "ooh, Leonard Whiting?" Oh, wait, I'm the gay one. Never mind. :D
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I have no problems with lectures (although I have not heard any in Elizabethan English). None with TV news. None with technical readings. I read less fiction than I used to, but I go from Umberto Ecco to Milan Kundera, to Octavia Butler. I am fine with the plays of Ibsen to those of Aeschylus. I enjoy Sam Shepard plays. I have never read much poetry, often finding it flat and unmoving or simply not meaningful.

Shakespeare is unusual because his writings are so singular in this.

I have a LOT of trouble understanding the words of music. It is rare that I know the words to a song, even one I enjoy. And I find that I have very little music seeking behavior. What I do listen to (infrequently) is instrumental (Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovaski). I don't like Bach very much, but that might be PTSD from early church experiences.
Do you mind if I bounce this (with proper respect for your anonymity) off a friend of mine who has some expertise in the area?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I don't understand this at all. how are those feminine endings?



Yes, my problem is understanding what the words mean in context. Reading them out loud fails for me because I can never get enough of the sense to know what is going on. I find myself stumbling at every line with no comprehension to back up the words I am saying.
Feminine (or "weak") endings.

Remember the structure of blank verse - 10 syllables, 5 pairs of unstressed/stressed. de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM. If you add an extra syllable, that weakens the structure by ending it on an unstressed syllable.

Macbeth, when he hears that his Queen has died, replies:

"She should have died hereafter.
There would have been a time for such a word.

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty place from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time." (We'll do the rest later...)

That first line, you see, would normally be pronounced:

"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow"

See how that makes even the "ands" important? They are hightened so as to suggest the tediousness he's feeling at the moment. But the line itself drops off at the end, through the last unstressed syllable.

It's really very effective if you read it out.

Look up online for Ian McKellen's reading of that speech. It's fascinating.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Don't you mean, "ooh, Leonard Whiting?" Oh, wait, I'm the gay one. Never mind. :D
Haha, well I took Juliet's part in the sleeping draught speech - which I was disconcerted to be told I did very well - but my 14 yr old sexuality reasserted itself pretty rapidly. And I must say that in the first scene where you see Olivia Hussey: It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night, like a rich jewel in an Ethiop's ear.....she is so lovely...

But I was also Mercutio: "Why this love is like a great natural that runs lolling up and down to hide his bauble in a hole" and "A bawd a bawd soho" which, to much laughter, I read as "SOho", i.e, the seedy part of London full of prostitutes, rather than "soHO" the hunting cry. I think there is a school of thought that tries to claim Mercutio for the gay community, though I'm not sure I really see it.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Just for fun ... this is me playing Lorenzo (Merchant Of Venice) in 1964.

Lorenzo.jpg
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
And, out of curiosity, singing Count Von Asterburg in Sigmund Romberg's operetta "The Student Prince." (I was a tenor -- when I still had a voice.)
von Asterberg.jpg
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
This is basically what we did with A Doll's House (albeit not Shakspeare, obviously, but we did study Othello though I don't remember much about that).

A Doll's House -- great play! I love Ibsen. All his plays. And I do know them all.

There are some wonderful things about Othello -- ask me, but only if you're really interested.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, I have gone through about a quarter of this. I have had to go back numerous times to catch what was said, but it makes more sense than any other Shakespeare I have seen or read. So, for an hour of watching, I made it through 30 minutes of movie. But I am following it to at least some extent, which is itself a miracle.

I noticed, though, that the movie removes much from the writing. And, often, it is the part removed that bothers me when I attempt to read.
Honestly I’ve always had a better time watching/listening to the Bard’s plays than reading them.
If you get the right actor, I dunno the words just seem to make more sense to me.
(Alan Rickman reading Shakespeare is the best thing to ever happen, just FYI.)

I think it might help you to look up a YouTuber who actually helped me understand classical literature when I was in high school, lazing around online.
KyleKallgrenBHH. Formally Brows Held High. He used to (not so much anymore) do video essays exploring various aspects of classical literature and how it relates to modern media and their various adaptations.
He even has a playlist exploring Shakespeare through differing adaptations and why they work or don’t work.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjP6Gt_QLgX7Yw2YCem2G5lNoLAXO-Fn0
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The other thing that commonly makes reading Shakespeare difficult is his choice of word order. He quite often changes the natural sentence order for one of two purposes -- to get words into the right "place" within the blank verse, or simply to add a bit of stress or tension. So, in Merchant for example (in the ante-penultimate scene), when Graziano says "That will I do," it is a change in putting the object of the sentence before the subject and verb (we would normally say, "I'll do that"). This is a very, very common Shakespeare construct, and again, it's surprising how easily you can get used to it, if you encounter it a few times.


I know this is part of the difficulty, especially if the separation is more than a word or two.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Feminine (or "weak") endings.

Remember the structure of blank verse - 10 syllables, 5 pairs of unstressed/stressed. de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM. If you add an extra syllable, that weakens the structure by ending it on an unstressed syllable.

Macbeth, when he hears that his Queen has died, replies:

"She should have died hereafter.
There would have been a time for such a word.

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty place from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time." (We'll do the rest later...)

That first line, you see, would normally be pronounced:

"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow"

See how that makes even the "ands" important? They are hightened so as to suggest the tediousness he's feeling at the moment. But the line itself drops off at the end, through the last unstressed syllable.

I've always had a problem understanding stress in things like this. I really see no difference in the meaning based on what part you stress. I don't see an emotional impact either. One just seems more unnatural than the other. And, frankly, the 'blank verse' version seems *very* unnatural to me. I find it almost impossible to read that way.

It's really very effective if you read it out.

Look up online for Ian McKellen's reading of that speech. It's fascinating.

This was referenced in an earlier post. And, again, I *guess* I can see how what he says fits, but I have no idea how to get that out of what is written. And, in the last part, when he actually performs it, I find the previous explanations rather lost in the verbiage. You said it was a conversation, but it seems more to me like it is an internal reverie of being sad.

OK, and a bit more specific: why the word 'syllable'? I find it strangely off-putting. How is recorded time related to a syllable? I *think* I get the 'creeping' reference as related to the repetitiousness of time, but I'm not sure what to do with that. And that the 'last syllable' is just referring to the end of time, yes?

Come to think about it, this seems to say more about being bored than being sad: the repetitiousness and the pettiness of the place push in that direction. Which makes the whole thing seem very strange in context.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I've always had a problem understanding stress in things like this. I really see no difference in the meaning based on what part you stress. I don't see an emotional impact either. One just seems more unnatural than the other. And, frankly, the 'blank verse' version seems *very* unnatural to me. I find it almost impossible to read that way.
Well, here of course we are confronting one of the great monologues. These are often reveries by the character -- a way of expressing his thoughts to an audience. This is hard to do on stage (easier on film, as you can do close-ups -- did you ever see Death In Venice? Dirk Bogarde does more acting in the opening 5 minutes without ever saying a word!), in fact, it's impossible. So the actor says them out loud -- you get used to that, really.
This was referenced in an earlier post. And, again, I *guess* I can see how what he says fits, but I have no idea how to get that out of what is written. And, in the last part, when he actually performs it, I find the previous explanations rather lost in the verbiage. You said it was a conversation, but it seems more to me like it is an internal reverie of being sad.
Well, what he was talking about was really FOR actors, not for readers. This is how an actor prepares himself to BE the character when in front of an audience -- being aware of all those thoughts helps him express the character's thoughts more authentically, and this helps the audience to really understand what the character is feeling.
OK, and a bit more specific: why the word 'syllable'? I find it strangely off-putting. How is recorded time related to a syllable? I *think* I get the 'creeping' reference as related to the repetitiousness of time, but I'm not sure what to do with that. And that the 'last syllable' is just referring to the end of time, yes?
Elizabethans were more verbal than we are today. A person growing up in my decades was much more likely to read than to listen. So, if I want to break words down, I get down to letters, rather than syllables. But to a verbal audience, really the smallest part of a word is the syllable. So what he's trying to do is show time being broken down into little pieces, passing like the ticks of a clock.

This is all merely poetic allusion. Remember, an actor is standing on a stage with no moving pictures in the background, so the conveyance of nuance, shape, shadow and so forth is not readily expressible -- except in the word pictures that playwrite draws for us.
Come to think about it, this seems to say more about being bored than being sad: the repetitiousness and the pettiness of the place push in that direction. Which makes the whole thing seem very strange in context.
Well, in a sense you are quite right. Macbeth knows that he is going to face a fight just about immediately, and his hopes have been dashed by having the "prophecy" of the witches in Act One shown to be full of false hope -- so he also pretty much knows that he is going to die.

If that's the case, then I think we can read it that he is also feeling a bit "let's just get on with it, get it over with" sort of emotion.

And I think it's interesting that you picked up on that -- showing that it really is "built into" the language.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I really see no difference in the meaning based on what part you stress.

I used to not get poetry's meaning. My ability to see that meaning underwent a quantum leap upward because of acting classes I've taken. I started off reading in a monotone and little idea of the depth of meaning in the words.

And with everyone in the class reading the same poem, I learned how many different ways there are to find meaning in the words and as well how to communicate the meaning
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Taymor is something else, isn't she?

And Titus Andronicus is utterly brutal -- a lot of people have trouble with it. Taymor's handling of the brutalized Lavinia (Titus's daughter) is just gruesome. And Anthony Hopkins is brilliant in dealing with rapists Chiron and Demetrius (and serving up their heads cooked in a pie to their mother! (I confess, I loved it.)
Prospero as a woman makes so much sense. Too bad that people couldn't even consider this during Shakespeare's time.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Prospero as a woman makes so much sense. Too bad that people couldn't even consider this during Shakespeare's time.
Many years ago (1962, actually) I saw one of Canada's great actresses, Martha Henry (actually, she was born American, but made her career here) star as Miranda in The Tempest at the Stratford Festival (one of the world's best theatre companies). Quite wonderful.

BUT, just a couple of years ago, in 2018 before this beastly pandemic, she played Prospero at Stratford -- and it was bloody marvelous. I couldn't have asked for more. Chris Jones, theater critic for the Chicago Tribune, wrote "in all my years watching shows at this theater, a miragelike fountain of excellence ... I have never seen anything quite like the experience of watching Henry"
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Prospero as a woman makes so much sense. Too bad that people couldn't even consider this during Shakespeare's time.
I didn't think Helen Mirren's Prospero movie was anything special, though the musical score had memorable moments.

But of course back in Will's day, Miranda was played by a young male.
 
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