Sex, modesty and shame

[Estro Felino]

Honestly I have remarked that in the America founded by the Pilgrim Fathers, the culture of modesty is still predominant.
It's normal, because culture shapes our brains.

I have never had any kind of modesty or shame whenever it deals with speaking of sex because I was raised in a country where national TV has always legitimized and normalized shamelessness and any sort of immodesty, and maybe voyeurism.
Voyeurism is being curious about other people's sex life.
Female nudity, obscene language, ...that's what our Italian TV is all about.

For example...this is a TV show, a talk show, where the TV host asks the guests about their sex lives in detail. And she is very curious...she asks them to be as detailed as possible in the description of their own sex life, their sexual activities. And no guest shows shame or fear.

I think that Freud would say that repression causes transgression: he wrote the work Totem und Taboo, which is absolutely wonderful because it's a very thorough analysis on the relationship between psyche and sex.
The most negative passions and attitudes, like aggressivity and so on, are due to the repression and to the taboos that the society imposes.
Those taboos intensify our animalistic part that leads to transgression, to incest and to the most squalid uses of sex, like paraphilias and similar.

Unfortunately the today psychology has become Banality Fair...and most psychiatrists and psychologists have abandoned Freud...and prefer to trivialize very compex mechanisms, that depend on the neuro-science, on the endocrine system, and on the traumas.

What do you guys think?

 

[Estro Felino]

I psychanalyze my own psychologist.
Whenever I speak of sex, I see that she sweats, she looks and sounds awkward, she really becomes unwatchable.

No offense for her.

Once I asked her: Doctor M, but tell me: do you feel awkward whenever I speak of sex?

And she was shocked by my question, and admitted that she does, a littel bit.

So...I think psychology is going backwards...since even psychologists are ashamed of speaking of sex.

 

[JustGeorge]

I think it depends on the person. Some people do. (I do.) Some people are very open. Some people are very casual.

Why does it perplex you so that different people would be different?

 

[Estro Felino]

I think it depends on the person. Some people do.

You mean some people are very modest and so they don't speak of their own sex life?

Why does it perplex you so that different people would be different?

No, it doesn't. I was speaking of Freud's Totem and Taboo, and I was explaining how excessive modesty, excessive repression can have devastating consequences in the cultural framework of an entire civilization.

 

[JustGeorge]

You mean some people are very modest and so they don't speak of their own sex life?

Is it always modesty? Or could it be preference of topic?

No, it doesn't. I was speaking of Freud's Totem and Taboo, and he was explaining how excessive modesty, excessive repression can have devastating consequences in the cultural framework of an entire civilization.

Thanks for clarifying.

While I don't dismiss that excessive repression can have ill consequences, do you think excessive focus could also bring trouble?

 

[Estro Felino]

Is it always modesty? Or could it be preference of topic?

Don't you think it is cultural?
That is, Scandinavia (Europe in general, more or less) and US are totally different, culturally?

Thanks for clarifying.

You're welcome.

While I don't dismiss that excessive repression can have ill consequences, do you think excessive focus could also bring trouble?

Absolutely not.
The exact opposite, I'd say: speaking always of sex turns sex into something idealized, platonically speaking.
It's the catharsis Aristotle spoke of: sublimation of passions because we seek for something more and more perfect, sublime.
And sex is not seen as a bodily necessity. It's seen as something idealized.
My first time was when I was 23...because the males I was dating were not romantic enough.
And I wanted my first time to be the most romantic moment ever.

 

[Wu Wei]

I think it depends on the person. Some people do. (I do.) Some people are very open. Some people are very casual.

Why does it perplex you so that different people would be different?

And some people, such as myself, don't bloody care, are not impressed and find somebodies need to tell the world a ridiculous character flaw that shows a major need for attention that screams"Hey look at me" which tends to get a response from me of either "shut up", "who cares" "go way" "seek professional help" or any or all of the above

as for regular to over use of profanity, show level of intelligence...or more correctly a lack thereof..IMO

 

[JustGeorge]

Don't you think it is cultural?

No. I don't like to talk much of it, but I know lots of people(both women and men) who talk on it a lot.

On the flip side, not everyone here appreciates my toilet humor.

That is, Scandinavia (Europe in general, more or less) and US are totally different, culturally?

You're welcome.

Absolutely not.
The exact opposite, I'd say: speaking always of sex turns sex into something idealized, platonically speaking.
It's the catharsis Aristotle spoke of: sublimation of passions because we seek for something more and more perfect, sublime.
And sex is not seen as a bodily necessity. It's seen as something idealized.
My first time was when I was 23...because the males I was dating were not romantic enough.
And I wanted my first time to be the most romantic moment ever.

I wonder if perhaps how its idealized varies from culture to culture.

 

[Estro Felino]

No. I don't like to talk much of it, but I know lots of people(both women and men) who talk on it a lot.

In my opinion it's cultural also because my country was the founder of Roman paganism.
Sex was present in any cultural discussion, during the time f ancient Rome.
Even in Catullus' poems.

There wasn't the concept of privacy.
In Italian, there is no Italian word for "privacy". That is why we borrowed it from English. I am not kidding. We say: la privacy...feminine noun.
In ancient Rome nothing was private, because there was no modesty.

 

[Estro Felino]

And some people, such as myself, don't bloody care, are not impressed and find somebodies need to tell the world a ridiculous character flaw that shows a major need for attention that screams"Hey look at me" which tends to get a response from me of either "shut up", "who cares" "go way" "seek professional help" or any or all of the above

as for regular to over use of profanity, show level of intelligence...or more correctly a lack thereof..IMO

There is an Italian psychologists that says that the most modest cultures are the ones where people have sex the most.

 

[crossfire]

In my opinion it's cultural also because my country was the founder of Roman paganism.
Sex was present in any cultural discussion, during the time f ancient Rome.
Even in Catullus' poems.

There wasn't the concept of privacy.
In Italian, there is no Italian word for "privacy". That is why we borrowed it from English. I am not kidding. We say: la privacy...feminine noun.
In ancient Rome nothing was private, because there was no modesty.

Interesting. Here, there is a saying, "Without privacy, there can be no intimacy."

 

[JerusalemBull]

true

 

[Estro Felino]

Interesting. Here, there is a saying, "Without privacy, there can be no intimacy."

Interesting.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In Italian, there is no Italian word for "privacy".

That is a really interesting observation. Thanks.

 

[Stevicus]

Honestly I have remarked that in the America founded by the Pilgrim Fathers, the culture of modesty is still predominant.
It's normal, because culture shapes our brains.

I have never had any kind of modesty or shame whenever it deals with speaking of sex because I was raised in a country where national TV has always legitimized and normalized shamelessness and any sort of immodesty, and maybe voyeurism.
Voyeurism is being curious about other people's sex life.
Female nudity, obscene language, ...that's what our Italian TV is all about.

For example...this is a TV show, a talk show, where the TV host asks the guests about their sex lives in detail. And she is very curious...she asks them to be as detailed as possible in the description of their own sex life, their sexual activities. And no guest shows shame or fear.

I think that Freud would say that repression causes transgression: he wrote the work Totem und Taboo, which is absolutely wonderful because it's a very thorough analysis on the relationship between psyche and sex.
The most negative passions and attitudes, like aggressivity and so on, are due to the repression and to the taboos that the society imposes.
Those taboos intensify our animalistic part that leads to transgression, to incest and to the most squalid uses of sex, like paraphilias and similar.

Unfortunately the today psychology has become Banality Fair...and most psychiatrists and psychologists have abandoned Freud...and prefer to trivialize very compex mechanisms, that depend on the neuro-science, on the endocrine system, and on the traumas.

What do you guys think?

I think there are different groups with varying perspectives. There are still quite a number of puritan types in America, as you mentioned. But then there are those who go towards the opposite end of the spectrum and think that anything goes. The overriding notion is monetary-related in that sex sells. Even in some of the more puritanical areas, there might be churches on every corner and very pious people, but on the outskirts, you'll still see the strip clubs and other places of lesser repute. If it's out of town, it's out of sight, and out of mind. I don't know what Freud would have thought of that, where people are paragons of virtue and pillars of the community by day, but then crazed sex fiends at night. Sounds like the makings of a good scandal (and TV movie).

 

[Wu Wei]

There is an Italian psychologists that says that the most modest cultures are the ones where people have sex the most.

So then you are saying the Italian need to openly discuss such things on TV just means they do without more and talking about it so openly is over compensation for a lacking in their life

 

[Estro Felino]

I think there are different groups with varying perspectives. There are still quite a number of puritan types in America, as you mentioned. But then there are those who go towards the opposite end of the spectrum and think that anything goes. The overriding notion is monetary-related in that sex sells. Even in some of the more puritanical areas, there might be churches on every corner and very pious people, but on the outskirts, you'll still see the strip clubs and other places of lesser repute. If it's out of town, it's out of sight, and out of mind. I don't know what Freud would have thought of that, where people are paragons of virtue and pillars of the community by day, but then crazed sex fiends at night. Sounds like the makings of a good scandal (and TV movie).

Repression causes transgression, indeed.
If we all started to normalize the fact that sex is not something to be ashamed of...that would be less surprising.

 

[Estro Felino]

So then you are saying the Italian need to openly discuss such things on TV just means they do without more and talking about it so openly is over compensation for a lacking in their life

I am not saying that.
I am just quoting that psychologist, who may have based that on her professional experience. Pure anecdotal conjecture. Generalizing about a country is always wrong...because people are all different.
What I am saying is that speaking of sex is healthy.
It's healthier than to not speak of it, maybe.

 

[Nakosis]

Honestly I have remarked that in the America founded by the Pilgrim Fathers, the culture of modesty is still predominant.
It's normal, because culture shapes our brains.

I have never had any kind of modesty or shame whenever it deals with speaking of sex because I was raised in a country where national TV has always legitimized and normalized shamelessness and any sort of immodesty, and maybe voyeurism.
Voyeurism is being curious about other people's sex life.
Female nudity, obscene language, ...that's what our Italian TV is all about.

For example...this is a TV show, a talk show, where the TV host asks the guests about their sex lives in detail. And she is very curious...she asks them to be as detailed as possible in the description of their own sex life, their sexual activities. And no guest shows shame or fear.

I think that Freud would say that repression causes transgression: he wrote the work Totem und Taboo, which is absolutely wonderful because it's a very thorough analysis on the relationship between psyche and sex.
The most negative passions and attitudes, like aggressivity and so on, are due to the repression and to the taboos that the society imposes.
Those taboos intensify our animalistic part that leads to transgression, to incest and to the most squalid uses of sex, like paraphilias and similar.

Unfortunately the today psychology has become Banality Fair...and most psychiatrists and psychologists have abandoned Freud...and prefer to trivialize very compex mechanisms, that depend on the neuro-science, on the endocrine system, and on the traumas.

What do you guys think?

Can't escape my culture in some respects. Always feel uncomfortable when it comes to talking about sex.
Another thing I could blame them darn Christians for, American culture.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can't escape my culture in some respects. Always feel uncomfortable when it comes to talking about sex.
Another thing I could blame them darn Christians for, American culture.

I wonder how I escaped that so easily -- I have literally no problem at all discussing sex. At 76, the only thing that should be hard about sex isn't so much.