Religious Views of God and Omnipotence

[Levite]

What religions believe that God is benevolent but not omnipotent or are there any? Are there any religions that address the theodicy issue with the belief that God cannot prevent evil or at least prevent all evil?

The school of thought which is Jewish process theology chooses to prefer God's omnibenevolence at the expense of His omnipotence. I confess, I find it deeply unsatisfactory; but it does have a growing number of devotees of its theological views, especially as taught by Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson.

 

[Thanda]

Those aren't really limitations, as you can choose not to adhere to them. Are you saying that these are the kind of "limitations" on God? Is he free to disregard them at any moment, or is he actually bound by them?

The example by Guy is actually quite perfect for my view of God. I believe in objective morality. And I believe that morality is objective even from God's point of view. So God is a very powerful being but he has a choice as to what kind of character he would like to have (certainly God could not bestow on us something he doesn't have: i.e. free will). He chooses to be a loving, merciful and just being. Having made that choice he is bound by the requirements of that choice. If he never shows mercy then he is no longer merciful. If he does keep his promises then he is no longer just. So God has put limitations on himself because of the person he has decided he wants to be.

As for God knowing the future, I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to understand. I have a son, he is young but I already have an idea what he will do under certain situations. Now you can imagine that a being that is able to create and sustain the universe would be able to know the what many people would be able to do. And through his powers of reason he could be able to tell what the consequences of our actions would be; and he would be able to tell how each person would react to the consequences; and so on and so on as far as he would wish to see. So the future is known to him through the very same mechanism anyone else would be able to know the future. He just has the advantage of having access to all the data (not just a sample) including what we are currently thinking and how we are currently feeling.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That seems to scream of a confirmation bias to me, like you are trying to explain away the isssues that arise with omnipotence by removing God from anything that we are familiar with. Our minds are not capable of understanding the concept of a being outside of time/space, so it just seems like quite a convenient explanation. It ends there if its true. But, I am not convinced.

Why do you believe this to be the case specifically, apart from it filling in the blanks? Why can't God just be limited and, thus, not all-powerful?

because he created us, and everything we see around us, including the laws we are bound by.

 

[leibowde84]

because he created us, and everything we see around us, including the laws we are bound by.

This doesn't answer my question at all. In theory, all of these things could be done by a limited being just as much as they could be done with an unlimited being.

Why would this prevent him from being limited?

 

[leibowde84]

The example by Guy is actually quite perfect for my view of God. I believe in objective morality. And I believe that morality is objective even from God's point of view. So God is a very powerful being but he has a choice as to what kind of character he would like to have (certainly God could not bestow on us something he doesn't have: i.e. free will). He chooses to be a loving, merciful and just being. Having made that choice he is bound by the requirements of that choice. If he never shows mercy then he is no longer merciful. If he does keep his promises then he is no longer just. So God has put limitations on himself because of the person he has decided he wants to be.

As for God knowing the future, I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to understand. I have a son, he is young but I already have an idea what he will do under certain situations. Now you can imagine that a being that is able to create and sustain the universe would be able to know the what many people would be able to do. And through his powers of reason he could be able to tell what the consequences of our actions would be; and he would be able to tell how each person would react to the consequences; and so on and so on as far as he would wish to see. So the future is known to him through the very same mechanism anyone else would be able to know the future. He just has the advantage of having access to all the data (not just a sample) including what we are currently thinking and how we are currently feeling.

To your first point, do you believe that God can break his own rules and change his mind?

 

[leibowde84]

The example by Guy is actually quite perfect for my view of God. I believe in objective morality. And I believe that morality is objective even from God's point of view. So God is a very powerful being but he has a choice as to what kind of character he would like to have (certainly God could not bestow on us something he doesn't have: i.e. free will). He chooses to be a loving, merciful and just being. Having made that choice he is bound by the requirements of that choice. If he never shows mercy then he is no longer merciful. If he does keep his promises then he is no longer just. So God has put limitations on himself because of the person he has decided he wants to be.

As for God knowing the future, I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to understand. I have a son, he is young but I already have an idea what he will do under certain situations. Now you can imagine that a being that is able to create and sustain the universe would be able to know the what many people would be able to do. And through his powers of reason he could be able to tell what the consequences of our actions would be; and he would be able to tell how each person would react to the consequences; and so on and so on as far as he would wish to see. So the future is known to him through the very same mechanism anyone else would be able to know the future. He just has the advantage of having access to all the data (not just a sample) including what we are currently thinking and how we are currently feeling.

So, does he know the future precisely, or does he know the future in the way that you describe; merely knowing what should happen taking into consideration the present facts? It sounds like you are equating educated guessing with supernatural knowledge, but I may be wrong.

 

[Thanda]

To your first point, do you believe that God can break his own rules and change his mind?

Yes I believe he can. But what is comforting is that he won't.

 

[Thanda]

So, does he know the future precisely, or does he know the future in the way that you describe; merely knowing what should happen taking into consideration the present facts? It sounds like you are equating educated guessing with supernatural knowledge, but I may be wrong.

God knows his educated guesses are never wrong - mainly because he always has all the facts and he knows and understands all the variable. There are no hidden factors with him. Therefore he has no reason to doubt his own predictions. Therefore his knowledge of the future is best described as conclusions rather than educated guesses

 

[leibowde84]

Yes I believe he can. But what is comforting is that he won't.

What is comforting is not relevant to this discussion. So, God can break these rules and disregard these limits at any time for any reason? I just want to be clear.

 

[Thanda]

What is comforting is not relevant to this discussion. So, God can break these rules and disregard these limits at any time for any reason? I just want to be clear.

Yes he could. If he could not that would mean God gave you and me something he does not have: free will.

I don't know if you have a child. If you did I suspect you would never cut their head off. But the fact is you can - you just choose not to.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes he could. If he could not that would mean God gave you and me something he does not have: free will.

I don't know if you have a child. If you did I suspect you would never cut their head off. But the fact is you can - you just choose not to.

How is that related to what we are talking about?

 

[Thanda]

How is that related to what we are talking about?

If you don't understand then I can't help you.

 

[leibowde84]

If you don't understand then I can't help you.

That is pretty rude. I am asking what a parent's ability to cut off the head of their child has to do with omnipotence.

 

[Thanda]

That is pretty rude. I am asking what a parent's ability to cut off the head of their child has to do with omnipotence.

It has nothing to do with omnipotence. I was answering your question about God being able to break his rules and change his mind. I said God can but won't and I gave the example to illustrate the concept.

I did not mean to be rude but I couldn't understand why you suddenly lost track of our conversation.

 

[leibowde84]

It has nothing to do with omnipotence. I was answering your question about God being able to break his rules and change his mind. I said God can but won't and I gave the example to illustrate the concept.

I did not mean to be rude but I couldn't understand why you suddenly lost track of our conversation.

I just found it to be an irrelevant concept. With a parent, the kid dies. That's it. With God, there is no death. Whatever God does isn't as determinative or destructive. I don't think it's a fair comparison.

 

[Thanda]

I just found it to be an irrelevant concept. With a parent, the kid dies. That's it. With God, there is no death. Whatever God does isn't as determinative or destructive. I don't think it's a fair comparison.

I'm not sure I understand: are you saying God can't kill us?

 

[leibowde84]

I'm not sure I understand: are you saying God can't kill us?

I'm saying that God can take us into the kingdom after killing us, so we don't really die. To a parent, to the best of their knowledge, death is permanent. They might believe differently, but that's it.

 

[Thanda]

I'm saying that God can take us into the kingdom after killing us, so we don't really die. To a parent, to the best of their knowledge, death is permanent. They might believe differently, but that's it.

All in all my point is I believe God has chosen the kind of person he wants to be. And he doesn't change: why doesn't he change - because there would be no benefit for him to change. Something that is little spoken about concerning God is his emotions outside of anger and perhaps love. God is in fact a very happy person. He is very happy with himself and every decision he makes. For this reason he never changes - because he doesn't want to.

 

[leibowde84]

All in all my point is I believe God has chosen the kind of person he wants to be. And he doesn't change: why doesn't he change - because there would be no benefit for him to change. Something that is little spoken about concerning God is his emotions outside of anger and perhaps love. God is in fact a very happy person. He is very happy with himself and every decision he makes. For this reason he never changes - because he doesn't want to.

You sound so confident about these claims. What makes you feel this way?

 

[Thanda]

You sound so confident about these claims. What makes you feel this way?

In Mormon theology we have the phrase "As man is so God once was, as God is so man may become". Jesus told us to be like God. Jesus would have known that the most basic human goal is happiness. Therefore it stands to reason that if God is so eager for us to be like him while claiming to love us then he must be a happy man. He has found the path that leads to happiness and he is now eager to share that knowledge with anyone who wishes to be happy.

But just because God is happy it doesn't mean his life is easy. It is stressful enough having 1 child imagine having a few billion! And it is for this reason that his message is so often rejected and changed by people to suite their own needs. But to no man has God ever said it is easy to become like him - all he has said is that it will all be worth it.