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Qualified Observation and Spirituality

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
It often seems that people have great difficulty with accepting different ideas. Over the course of our lives we hear many different and intriguing ideas, some of which may outrage us or may enchant us and so on and some may confuse us. So what system can we use to determine which ideas are valid, which ones we should accept or reject? What system can we use?

When I speak of Scientific Method, I mean that in most instances scientists investigate problems by putting ideas to the test. Those that work are selected, those that don't work are rejected, and those that fail to produce enough data are held in abeyance. So the more information we have on things, the greater our ability to select or reject ideas.

For people who don't gain information, or investigate things, it becomes very hard to know what is relevant and what is not. There are many people, for example, who claim to have seen flying saucers or spaceships from another world. But how can we know? Are they sincere? Are they lying?

I don't think they're lying. But they are sincere a lot of the time.

But what they believe they have seen is not always accurate. People, in general, are not always accurate in describing information. We know, for example, that in many instances weather balloons have been interpreted as extra-terrestrial ships. We also know that, in certain conditions, part of an aircraft can be reflected on a cloud at an offset position like the wing or the fuselage. These have also been mistaken for spaceships.

The same can happen when people speak of spiritual experiences or events. They can sincerely believe what they're saying to us, but may not be accurately describing the information because they're unable to. They lack the relevant information in the areas of human biology, neurology, psychology, neuroscience and so on to be able to know of many strange medical and psychological conditions, or abnormalities in the brain, that might lead to an event that feels spiritual. That isn't to say that their experience isn't spiritual necessarily, but that they have no way of being able to select what is accurate information and what is not.

For example, a few years ago a number of people in the area of SoHo, New York reported hearing ghostly voices as they walked down the street. Such people could be dismissed as crazy, but in this case they actually were hearing voices.

There was, however, nothing 'paranormal' about the event. The voices were created using a technology. Holosonics is a company that creates a device called an 'Audio Spotlight' that directs ultrasonic waves at a spot near the ear of an individual or group (depending on distribution). The result is that only that person, or group, can hear whatever sound is being projected. Even if someone were stood next to you, you would hear the projected sound, and they would not (until they stood in the same spot).

This highlights the problem with descriptions and claims both paranormal and spiritual experiences. Those people may have sincerely believed that they had just had a paranormal or spiritual experience, but they only believe so because they're unaware of the Audio Spotlight created by Holosound. Someone who is aware of the Audio Spotlight may say 'Oh it's one of those holo sound things, it's not really ghosts,' and that may be more accurate than 'It was ghosts, I tell you!'.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Let me start by saying I am a believer in the so-called spiritual/paranormal. And yes, everything you say above are things I consider in forming my views. Even considering those things I still believe many times over that there is enough evidence to support belief in the spiritual/paranormal. I believe some experiences may have explanations in the physical but not all. For example, things like people possessing specific knowledge not reasonably explainable as having been guessed or learned through 'normal' channels is something I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt occurs. And that is just one example.

You are starting from the hypothesis that everything is physical/material and then want to make all the data fit the hypothesis. But the eastern/Indian spiritual hypothesis includes the material but goes on to be vastly broader and makes better sense of the experiences in my view. These spiritual/paranormal things are really part and parcel of their expanded view of nature. It is my opinion that that the hypothesis presented by those masters/sages with 'second attention' is the superior hypothesis after my investigation of the data and argumentation from all sides.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Even considering those things I still believe many times over that there is enough evidence to support belief in the spiritual/paranormal.

But without putting evidence to the test, you are not able to select whether your information is accurate or not.

You are starting from the hypothesis that everything is physical/material and then want to make all the data fit the hypothesis. But the eastern/Indian spiritual hypothesis includes the material but goes on to be vastly broader and makes better sense of the experiences in my view. These spiritual/paranormal things are really part and parcel of their expanded view of nature. It is my opinion that that the hypothesis presented by those masters/sages with 'second attention' is the superior hypothesis after my investigation of the data and argumentation from all sides.

As far as I am aware, the eastern/indian spiritualists have not put their ideas to test using scientific method and produced verifiable results. Their ideas are, simply, ideas. But without experiments, you can have no way of knowing whether what they say is accurate or not. You may choose to believe whatever you wish because it appeals to your worldview/ego, but those beliefs do not necessarily fit with actual reality.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But without putting evidence to the test, you are not able to select whether your information is accurate or not.

As far as I am aware, the eastern/indian spiritualists have not put their ideas to test using scientific method and produced verifiable results. Their ideas are, simply, ideas. But without experiments, you can have no way of knowing whether what they say is accurate or not. You may choose to believe whatever you wish because it appeals to your worldview/ego, but those beliefs do not necessarily fit with actual reality.
Now, you are asking for material proof through experiments of that which is posited to be beyond the material world currently known to science. That is not possible at this time in science.

I have concluded that things happen that don't fit and shouldn't happen in the standard materialist worldview (so-called 'paranormal' events). The standard materialist worldview must then be wrong or at least dramatically incomplete. A scientific mind then will consider hypotheses out there that might better explain the data by considering all the evidence in favor and against the hypotheses.

I am not claiming scientific proof but the most reasonable hypothesis out there.
 
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Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Now, you are asking for material proof through experiments of that which is posited to be beyond the material world currently known to science. That is not possible at this time in science.

So then we hold those claims in abeyance. Belief is not necessary. Sorted.

I have concluded that things happen that don't fit and shouldn't happen in the standard materialist worldview (so-called 'paranormal' events).

Are you fluent in all possible strange natural phenomena known to science to be able to eliminate normal causes behind 'paranormal' events. As well as neurological and psychological phenomena?

The standard materialist worldview must then be wrong or at least dramatically incomplete.
The view is always incomplete. That is why we make discoveries.

A scientific mind then will consider hypotheses out there that might better explain the data by considering all the evidence in favor and against the hypotheses.

A scientific mind then finds a way to test these hypotheses. If no test can be done, then they are held in abeyance.



I am not claiming scientific proof but the most reasonable hypothesis out there.

The most reasonable hypotheses to you. But you are not necessarily a qualified observer.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So then we hold those claims in abeyance. Belief is not necessary. Sorted.
Claims in abeyance beg for speculative thought. Science starts by proposing hypotheses. If the hypothesis is not testable by current science then it outside the scope of science at this time.

But science is not my only concern here; I understand it must move slowly and cautiously. The question that we all must ask ourselves is what do we believe is the most reasonable hypothesis given all the data and argumentation.



Are you fluent in all possible strange natural phenomena known to science to be able to eliminate normal causes behind 'paranormal' events. As well as neurological and psychological phenomena?
Nobody knows everything, but that is why we look not at just the subjective aspects of paranormal/spiritual experiences but also at objective evidence that something interesting is going on. For example, someone knowing detailed information that is not reasonable to believe came from fortunate guessing or normal channels of sensory input. Now an arch-skeptic of course can argue for hoaxing and lucky guesses by someone who makes thousands of guesses, etc,, etc.. Most of us are aware of these arguments but a body of strong cases can make the skeptic's argument less reasonable than the argument that something truly beyond the scope of science is occurring. Neither side can 'prove' their argument and it does come down to individual judgment of reasonableness.

The logical end of the direction of your argument is that we should have no theological/paranormal beliefs because science can't 'prove' them right.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Comparing the scientific method and religious experience is analogous to trying to compare apples and oranges...the first involves objective physical world replicative experiment which can be fully translated and conveyed conceptually, while religious experience involves a subjective spiritual domain unique experience that can not be properly translated and conveyed conceptually. I might add the many people who do think they have had a spiritual experience and are conveying it accurately, are deluded. I don't mean deluded in the sense of being nuts...just that they are ignorant in the sense of not being able to understand and differentiate input from the physical world sense perception and that from the spiritual domain higher intuitive faculty...the first is a conceptual comprehension, the latter a non-conceptual apprehension...
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Comparing the scientific method and religious experience is analogous to trying to compare apples and oranges...the first involves objective physical world replicative experiment which can be fully translated and conveyed conceptually, while religious experience involves a subjective spiritual domain unique experience that can not be properly translated and conveyed conceptually. I might add the many people who do think they have had a spiritual experience and are conveying it accurately, are deluded. I don't mean deluded in the sense of being nuts...just that they are ignorant in the sense of not being able to understand and differentiate input from the physical world sense perception and that from the spiritual domain higher intuitive faculty...the first is a conceptual comprehension, the latter a non-conceptual apprehension...
I agree, but there are two major ways this breaks down:

1. When what is interpreted as a spiritual experience runs afoul of what is know through scientific knowledge that the one who had the spiritual experience gets wrapped up in cognitive dissonance and denial.

2. When, despite full awareness of the issues of "being able to understand and differentiate input from the physical world sense perception and that from the spiritual domain higher intuitive faculty" deluded individuals plow on ahead anyway.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I agree, but there are two major ways this breaks down:

1. When what is interpreted as a spiritual experience runs afoul of what is know through scientific knowledge that the one who had the spiritual experience gets wrapped up in cognitive dissonance and denial.

2. When, despite full awareness of the issues of "being able to understand and differentiate input from the physical world sense perception and that from the spiritual domain higher intuitive faculty" deluded individuals plow on ahead anyway.
Wrt point 2...if they are deluded, they do not possess full awareness, if they possess full awareness, they are not deluded.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
But the odds are (at least in my experience) that they are deluded concerning their possession of full awareness.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It often seems that people have great difficulty with accepting different ideas.
I don't think they're lying. But they are sincere a lot of the time.

Ideas come and go.
We sort through them best we can.
Some of us have that innate ability...some struggle.

Science experiment cannot always be used.
Logic cannot always be applied.
Your senses can deceive you.

So......how do you knooooooooooow?

It's a blend.
use experiment on the physical things.
use logic on the reasoning items.
try to see beyond what lays in front of you.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
btw a lie is a lie.
You might mean well and believe what you say...but...
If you are speaking a non-truth....it's a lie.

Be not deceived.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
But the odds are (at least in my experience) that they are deluded concerning their possession of full awareness.
...agree....there is much truth in the Taoist adage about ultimate knowledge...he who says, does not know...he who knows, does not say..;)
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Correct. In my case it is just belief in the most reasonable position as being the most reasonable position.

You can't say that it's the most reasonable, you have no way of verifying it. What you can say is 'I believe this and to me, this seems reasonable.

But saying an untestable belief is reasonable is unreasonable in of itself.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
In that case we reject, or hold in abeyance ideas that cannot be tested.

Unless you adhere to a form of thought.....such as cause and effect.

My science teacher of grade school was adamant.
You can never have one and not the other.
No science experiment can be definitive without that association.

Some lines of logic run the same path.

Granted...some studies now desire to say....
Particles 'just' happen.

So much for cause and effect.
So much for testing the source of matter.

And the singularity that science has held before us for sooooooooooo long.....just happened.

If so, then all that is above you head and beneath your feet ....need not have a cause.
That includes you.

If so again, your existence has no purpose and is completely terminal.

Man is then a mystery without resolve.
and you are wasting your time here.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I think it's more recognising that they are just beliefs.

And you make a line drawn between....belief...truth.....certainty.....assuredness....

You believe in science?
science believes in dark matter....can't prove it.
science believes in dark energy....can't prove it.

Name something you're sure of....and can't prove it.
 
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