Origins of the Quran

[use_your_brain]

Believe what you want, it does not make it true because you have faith

If Quran were not true then I won't either believe or adhere it. What about you? If you able to prove that Quran is not true then I would reject Quran.
ready to accept this simple challenge? you don't need any kind of sophisticated historical knowledge. Simply show me the error the wrong thing in Quran.

 

[use_your_brain]

many things claimed in the book literally never to place. many of the so called prophets did not exist outside mythology.

As long as they able to back theirs with the tangible, comprehensive, scientific, historical proof then we have to accept and believe and respect theirs. Otherwise it merely remains as the unknown myths.

 

[outhouse]

If Quran were not true then I won't either believe or adhere it. What about you? If you able to prove that Quran is not true then I would reject Quran.
ready to accept this simple challenge? you don't need any kind of sophisticated historical knowledge. Simply show me the error the wrong thing in Quran.

People like moses and Abraham and noah factually have no historicity as ever existing. Academically they are literary creations.

But I don't want to change your faith, nor should you gamble it.

 

[use_your_brain]

People like moses and Abraham and noah factually have no historicity as ever existing. Academically they are literary creations.

But I don't want to change your faith, nor should you gamble it.

Moses, Abraham, Noah have graves in the Middle East.

 

[YmirGF]

Moses, Abraham, Noah have graves in the Middle East.

You might want to alert the numerous academics and scholars. They might just offer you a reward of some kind.

 

[use_your_brain]

You might want to alert the numerous academics and scholars. They might just offer you a reward of some kind.

what does it mean?

 

[Augustus]

Plagiarism is not a problem it is history that has repeated itself for thousands of years, most every religion that has ever existed plagiarized concepts and claimed them as their own.

You seem to be oversimplifying the process by which aspects of one group's history becomes part of another group's history, especially in the ancient world.

To use 'plagiarise' implies the specific and deliberate actions of a given person acting dishonestly and in bad faith. The reality is that it is part of a long process of assimilation and modification. It is grey and fuzzy, not sharply defined and black and white.

It's a bit of a silly way to look at history really.

Seems a bit pointless to use a polemical and misleading term, rather than more accurate and less loaded one: The Quran contains aspects of Biblical and para-Biblical traditions, accurate and non-controversial.

 

[Augustus]

You might want to alert the numerous academics and scholars. They might just offer you a reward of some kind.

This is Noah's grave in Lebanon. He was a tall thin chap apparently:

 

[outhouse]

Moses, Abraham, Noah have graves in the Middle East.

No they do not.

They have no historicity as being such, its a faith based claim with no credibility sir

 

[outhouse]

To use 'plagiarise' implies the specific and deliberate actions of a given person acting dishonestly and in bad faith.

No it does not imply dishonesty.

These people thought their own conscious thoughts were from god, so they thought they were doing he right thing.

All religious belief evolved from previous traditions. No difference here

 

[outhouse]

The Quran contains aspects of Biblical and para-Biblical traditions, accurate and non-controversial.

The koran does not have "all" accurate information. It copied biblical mythology its followers still think is real, which matches YEC literal view we all know did not take place.

 

[David M]

David M said: ↑
Typical BS claim. Plagiarism is copying without acknowleding the source, Islam is clear on the point that it does source ideas and concepts from Judaism and Christianity so its not plagiarism.

Thanks for agreeing on the point.
Regards

You are welcome. I am an atheist but I want to see arguments based on facts. Islam clearly identifies itself as arising from the Abrahamic tradition.

 

[David M]

The fact they changed biblical text, is plagiarism in itself.

No its not, for someone who claims to hold academia in regard you don't seem to know what plagiarism actually entails.

If I take a whole hunk of text and add to it and change part of it no plagiarism occurs as long as the original source is acknowledged, which Islam does,

 

[David M]

No it does not imply dishonesty.

Yes it does, that is why it is considered a bad thing to do.

 

[outhouse]

If I take a whole hunk of text and add to it and change part of it no plagiarism occurs as long as the original source is acknowledged, which Islam does,

There are two parts to the definition of plagiarism

Plagiarism is not a problem it is history that has repeated itself for thousands of years, most every religion that has ever existed plagiarized concepts and claimed them as their own.

If the koran was not plagiarized, it would be called the bible.

islam is passing the copied text off as its own divine revelation, but that is not an academic position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)


Please notice the key phrase ITS OWN

pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]
VERB

1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.

 

[outhouse]

Yes it does, that is why it is considered a bad thing to do.

#1 Did islam incorporate biblical mythology and text ? factually yes it did that qualifies this part of the definition ""take (the work or an idea of someone else) "

#2 What does islam claim is the origin of the text? factually they claim the origin is their own divine revelation from god through the angel Gabriel directly to muhammad, correcting corrupt biblical text. "" pass it off as one's own. ""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)

 

[Augustus]

No it does not imply dishonesty.

Of course it does.

The koran does not have "all" accurate information. It copied biblical mythology its followers still think is real

You misunderstood the point.

"Seems a bit pointless to use a polemical and misleading term, rather than more accurate and less loaded one: [Saying] The Quran contains aspects of Biblical and para-Biblical traditions, [ is more] accurate and non-controversial. [than saying it plagiarises them]"

This is why it is a feature of anti-Islam polemics, but not academic literature on the topic. There is a reason for this.

 

[sun rise]

People like moses and Abraham and noah factually have no historicity as ever existing. Academically they are literary creations.

But I don't want to change your faith, nor should you gamble it.

The first sentence is not 100% correct - there are tombs which might or might not contain the historical Abraham or Noah - this cannot be proven or disproven with the archaeological findings we now have. So it would be fair to write that there is no academically verified evidence of their existence which is not proof that they are necessarily literary creations.

Are you aware of the study that showed where the Biblical reference to Moses parting the sea might have come from - the reed sea? This points out a number of things - first that some translations of the Bible say "sea of reeds" so there's an issue in translation. Secondly some things that are considered to be literary creations might have a basis in physical, verifiable fact. And that in this case the logic is ternary - proven true, proven false or not proven.

 

[McBell]

If Quran were not true then I won't either believe or adhere it. What about you? If you able to prove that Quran is not true then I would reject Quran.
ready to accept this simple challenge? you don't need any kind of sophisticated historical knowledge. Simply show me the error the wrong thing in Quran.

Kent?
Kent Hovind?
Is that you?

 

[outhouse]

Are you aware of the study that showed where the Biblical reference to Moses parting the sea might have come from - the reed sea?

Are you aware we already know where and when the mythology started?

The Israelite edition islam copied, was forst copied by the Israelites. Bet you didn't know that.


We first have this mythology starting after a real river flood attested to 2900BC with King Ziusudra. Later we have Akkadians and their river flood mythology. Later we have the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh that turned the river flood into a sea deluge, then much later we have the Israelite version that turned the sea deluge into a global flood. Much later we islams copied version.

All have similar wording and storylines that are similar because they all go back to Mesopotamian river floods