Origins and reasons for spirituality

[Lucidarian]

I've been thinking about reality, existence and spirituality for a long time and I've come to a few realizations towards it that I'd like to discuss and debate.
I believe our lives are just a process of remediation as we try to reconcile a vast, strange and largely unknowable world with an external world of other people doing the same thing that we struggle to understand or push away. It's this process that forms the base of spirituality and changes as we experience the losses and gains of life.

I'd argue that because of this we often conflate our belief and experiences with our existences, to challenge belief is to challenge existence and this is why the shared beliefs in a organized religion often cause them to become aggressive toward those who have different beliefs. I would further argue that everyone is spiritual, because they universally search for identity, alone or as part of a larger group and conflate this with their existence.

Because of this I think that the only difference between the sciences and religion is that the former seeks to systematically explain an external world and use it to explain the internal world and the latter seeks to systematically use the internal world to explain the external world while both seek to understand themselves in relation to an external world.

Interested in what you think, looking forward to some different ideas.

 

[Quintessence]

I think that you've got some very insightful kernels of thought that have much to unpack.

There are many perspectives on the origins of religion/spirituality, and you might find it interesting to study the various theories proposed by social sciences, such as in anthropology, psychology, and sociology. One of the things I've found interesting in my limited delving into that literature is that academics who study religion/spirituality do not really have any agreement as to what those things are. If nothing else, perhaps it can be said that it's a complex phenomena with many faces, and how we go about categorizing what does and does not fall under those terms will greatly impact how we regard its origins and reasons. The way in which Westerners regard and think about religion, for example, is not representational of the phenomena as a whole, and is part of why the terms "religion" and "spirituality" ended up becoming non-synonymous fairly recently.

Could you give an example of conflating belief and experience with existence?

How are you understanding and defining terms like "religion" and "spirituality?"

 

[George-ananda]

Interested in what you think, looking forward to some different ideas.

I think Consciousness is the fundamental basis of existence. The physical universe is the play of Consciousness. The pure Consciousness/God/Brahman is the core in all of us shining through our finite forms. Pure Consciousness has best been described as pure being-bliss-awareness. In the finite form these become the drive to exist, survive and be happy (these drives exist in all properly functioning beings). Spirituality is derivative of these drives by striving for eternal existence and eternal happiness which ultimately is our true nature.

 

[outhouse]

. It's this process that forms the base of spirituality and changes as we experience the losses and gains of life.

This aspect has probably been at the origin since humans began. Parental love combined with what we don't understand. Ancient men didn't know how lightning formed and attributed it to mythological constructs. same for earthquakes and volcanos and tsunamis, to al aspects of nature they had no clue about its true origin.

I know burial spirituality possibly goes back to Neanderthals.

Rainbow serpent in Aborigine cultures over 10,000 years.

 

[Lucidarian]

Could you give an example of conflating belief and experience with existence?

For example, one cannot be aware they exist without identifying themselves, and what they are in relation to other things. They do this by giving themselves an identity and giving identities to other things. What they believe the world to be changes how they view themselves in relation to it, when other people challenge the things we believe we lose parts of our identities, we lose what we thought we understood of the world and what we knew of ourselves in relation to it until we once again believe we understand the world and ourselves. For many when too many of their beliefs are lost or abandoned they undergo an identity or existential crisis to understand themselves again because for them what they are is the same as if they are at all, because losing the essence of the individual brings into question the existence of it as well.

How are you understanding and defining terms like "religion" and "spirituality?"

When I say religion I mean an organized social institution with beliefs that traditionally binds it's members together under what today would be considered supernatural ideas. I believe spirituality is the deepest values and meanings by which people live.

 

[Thief]

I've been thinking about reality, existence and spirituality for a long time and I've come to a few realizations towards it that I'd like to discuss and debate.
I believe our lives are just a process of remediation as we try to reconcile a vast, strange and largely unknowable world with an external world of other people doing the same thing that we struggle to understand or push away. It's this process that forms the base of spirituality and changes as we experience the losses and gains of life.

I'd argue that because of this we often conflate our belief and experiences with our existences, to challenge belief is to challenge existence and this is why the shared beliefs in a organized religion often cause them to become aggressive toward those who have different beliefs. I would further argue that everyone is spiritual, because they universally search for identity, alone or as part of a larger group and conflate this with their existence.

Because of this I think that the only difference between the sciences and religion is that the former seeks to systematically explain an external world and use it to explain the internal world and the latter seeks to systematically use the internal world to explain the external world while both seek to understand themselves in relation to an external world.

Interested in what you think, looking forward to some different ideas.

I lean to science and it's speech about a beginning.
I cross the story line with Spirit.
because of science I believe in cause and effect.
substance does not move of it's own volition.....therefore....
Spirit first.

 

[Quintessence]

When I say religion I mean an organized social institution with beliefs that traditionally binds it's members together under what today would be considered supernatural ideas. I believe spirituality is the deepest values and meanings by which people live.

Interesting. By such measures, my religion is not a religion, and may other religions are not religions either! What you're calling "spirituality" I just call "religion." To be honest, I rather hate the word "spirituality" and refuse to use it, partly because I've studied too much in comparative religion to

For example, one cannot be aware they exist without identifying themselves, and what they are in relation to other things. They do this by giving themselves an identity and giving identities to other things. What they believe the world to be changes how they view themselves in relation to it, when other people challenge the things we believe we lose parts of our identities, we lose what we thought we understood of the world and what we knew of ourselves in relation to it until we once again believe we understand the world and ourselves. For many when too many of their beliefs are lost or abandoned they undergo an identity or existential crisis to understand themselves again because for them what they are is the same as if they are at all, because losing the essence of the individual brings into question the existence of it as well.

I think that the extent to which this happens depends on how one anchors one's worldview, but on the whole, this is very insightful. There was an episode of Druidcast I listened to recently that dealt with a similar idea, but the memory is just not coming to the fore right now. Regardless, it is critical to be aware of the power of ideas, or of worldview. It is a power that is all too often underestimated in my culture, or so it seems. We wander unaware of how the lenses we wear bias everything, and then do not craft our lenses with deliberate care.

 

[Thief]

Interesting. By such measures, my religion is not a religion, and may other religions are not religions either! What you're calling "spirituality" I just call "religion." To be honest, I rather hate the word "spirituality" and refuse to use it, partly because I've studied too much in comparative religion to



I think that the extent to which this happens depends on how one anchors one's worldview, but on the whole, this is very insightful. There was an episode of Druidcast I listened to recently that dealt with a similar idea, but the memory is just not coming to the fore right now. Regardless, it is critical to be aware of the power of ideas, or of worldview. It is a power that is all too often underestimated in my culture, or so it seems. We wander unaware of how the lenses we wear bias everything, and then do not craft our lenses with deliberate care.

please repost you last line as an op.

 

[Quintessence]

please repost you last line as an op.

I'm not sure I really want to start a thread about that, but if you want to use it as a springboard, consider permission granted to quote me in a new thread. I might choose to expand on that a bit in there.