Omnipotence: The long con

[Sir Doom]

I have mentioned in a few posts that I don't believe in ominpotence for a number of reasons. I thought I might make a thread to list these reasons and get everyone's feedback. Thus, I learn and grow!

First, the purely selfish reason:
Omnipotence, by definition, must be unique. If there is more than one omnipotent being then they cancel out each other's omnipotence as they would each be something the other could not control. For this reason, I know that if omnipotence is real I am definitely not it and can't ever be. This is unacceptable to my ego. There should not be any level of power in the universe that I can't obtain (at least in theory).
Second, the boring existence reason:
As an omnipotent being, you can do everything. Not only can you do everything, but you have done everything. Not only have you done everything, but you've done everything an infinite number of times. Not one single action that could ever be conceived of has gone undone into infinity. Every single possible outcome of every single action has been seen and seen and seen again. And all of this happened the instant you thought about it. So now what? There is only one thing left to do. Self-destruction or at least the destruction of omnipotence which is just as good. This is the only thing that would have a unique effect on the omnipotent being's existence. The only thing it could only do once. So, either there is no such thing as omnipotence, or if there ever was its been gone since the start. Either way, no omnipotence.
Third, predestination and the meaninglessness of us:
This one is a bit selfish as well, but basically if there is an omnipotent being then all things are simply following its undeniable instructions. Therefore, my life and the lives of my fellow human beings would amount to little more than those circular cards you put in your viewmaster and look at pictures of the Grand Canyon on. I like this horrible, messed up planet and I like to think it has taken a lot of work on our part to get it here. I can't conciously cheapen all of that suffereing and progress by equating it to nothing more than some cosmic gag-reel. Every choice I've agonized about would be agony for agony's sake since the choice was made long before I existed. And for what? What could any of my struggles possibly gain for such a being? Nothing at all. I am willing to concede that life might be meaningless with or without this being, but its DEFINITELY meaningless WITH it and I refuse to purposefully choose meaninglessness.

So, there's my reasons if anyone cares Feel free to tear them to pieces I have a thick skin
I would like to mention that I do actually still believe in god despite all of this, I'm just convinced it isn't omnipotent. Probably nowhere near it. But that's just speculation.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I have mentioned in a few posts that I don't believe in ominpotence for a number of reasons. I thought I might make a thread to list these reasons and get everyone's feedback. Thus, I learn and grow!

First, the purely selfish reason:
Omnipotence, by definition, must be unique. If there is more than one omnipotent being then they cancel out each other's omnipotence as they would each be something the other could not control. For this reason, I know that if omnipotence is real I am definitely not it and can't ever be. This is unacceptable to my ego. There should not be any level of power in the universe that I can't obtain (at least in theory).

I disagree. There's nothing impossible for an omnipotent being, thus what's stopping it from creating another omnipotent being? Logic? Math? None of those things are relevant to the omnipotent being, they apply to reality, the universe.

Also, it's not extremely impossible as you think, sure there may be paradoxes with having two or more omnipotent creatures, but there's paradoxes in omnipotence itself.

Second, the boring existence reason:
As an omnipotent being, you can do everything. Not only can you do everything, but you have done everything. Not only have you done everything, but you've done everything an infinite number of times. Not one single action that could ever be conceived of has gone undone into infinity. Every single possible outcome of every single action has been seen and seen and seen again. And all of this happened the instant you thought about it. So now what? There is only one thing left to do. Self-destruction or at least the destruction of omnipotence which is just as good. This is the only thing that would have a unique effect on the omnipotent being's existence. The only thing it could only do once. So, either there is no such thing as omnipotence, or if there ever was its been gone since the start. Either way, no omnipotence.
Third, predestination and the meaninglessness of us:
This one is a bit selfish as well, but basically if there is an omnipotent being then all things are simply following its undeniable instructions. Therefore, my life and the lives of my fellow human beings would amount to little more than those circular cards you put in your viewmaster and look at pictures of the Grand Canyon on. I like this horrible, messed up planet and I like to think it has taken a lot of work on our part to get it here. I can't conciously cheapen all of that suffereing and progress by equating it to nothing more than some cosmic gag-reel. Every choice I've agonized about would be agony for agony's sake since the choice was made long before I existed. And for what? What could any of my struggles possibly gain for such a being? Nothing at all. I am willing to concede that life might be meaningless with or without this being, but its DEFINITELY meaningless WITH it and I refuse to purposefully choose meaninglessness.

So, there's my reasons if anyone cares Feel free to tear them to pieces I have a thick skin
I would like to mention that I do actually still believe in god despite all of this, I'm just convinced it isn't omnipotent. Probably nowhere near it. But that's just speculation.

I think the early people who created the concept of an omnipotent being (God) misunderstood the concept of how an omnipotent being would behave.

 

[Sir Doom]

I disagree. There's nothing impossible for an omnipotent being, thus what's stopping it from creating another omnipotent being? Logic? Math? None of those things are relevant to the omnipotent being, they apply to reality, the universe.

Also, it's not extremely impossible as you think, sure there may be paradoxes with having two or more omnipotent creatures, but there's paradoxes in omnipotence itself.

Well, I didn't mean to say that it was impossible for an omnipotent being to create another omnipotent being, just that it would destroy omnipotence to do so. I'm fine with this outcome as well. I'll take two nearly omnipotent beings over one omnipotent being any day.

I think the early people who created the concept of an omnipotent being (God) misunderstood the concept of how an omnipotent being would behave.

That's true, otherwise they might have left it out

We used to be okay with other people worshiping different gods and just said, "Our god is more powerful because of X" then the other people would say, "Nu uh, our god can do X and Y!" and then some yahoo came up with an unbeatable god that did everything.

Its like the kid who plays "Rock, Paper, Scissors" but somehow gets to use explosive rocks because he hates to lose.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you understand the difference between not believing in something and not liking it?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

In my experience the concepts of omnipotence is simply a huge semantic word game. I am not sure for example that it's in any way logical to believe an omnipotent being can do anything including what is rationally impossible. Omnipotence should simply mean, 'all that is possible'.

Talking on such a subject is just going to boil down to a children's game of who can come up with the best rule-lawyering set of imaginary super powers. And for a life-long Dungeons and Dragons player to ***** out something like that, you know it must be bad

 

[Sir Doom]

Do you understand the difference between not believing in something and not liking it?

There is a difference? Why do you let that happen?

 

[Sir Doom]

In my experience the concepts of omnipotence is simply a huge semantic word game. I am not sure for example that it's in any way logical to believe an omnipotent being can do anything including what is rationally impossible. Omnipotence should simply mean, 'all that is possible'.

Ah, but the distinction between rationally impossible and rationally possible would be a rationally possible thing for the omnipotence to create. In other words, any limitations on what the omnipotence can or cannot do are self-imposed limitations.

Even considering that, the limitations (self-imposed or not) destroy the idea that I'm against anyway. The type of "limited" omnipotence that you suggest is something I am perfectly fine with.

Talking on such a subject is just going to boil down to a children's game of who can come up with the best rule-lawyering set of imaginary super powers. And for a life-long Dungeons and Dragons player to ***** out something like that, you know it must be bad

I certainly hope we can all remain civil and adult. It is a pretty silly conversation to begin with, and I hope it remains light-hearted at worse. I will say however, that anything outside the bounds of scientific knowledge (and likely many things within it) could easily be boiled down to the same childish game you describe.

That being said, it is sort of the point. I hope that someone can come up with a better rule-lawyering set of imaginary super powers so that I can replace my own inferior version with it. No belief stands in the face of a better belief. Not in my brain, anyway.

 

[idav]

So, there's my reasons if anyone cares Feel free to tear them to pieces I have a thick skin
I would like to mention that I do actually still believe in god despite all of this, I'm just convinced it isn't omnipotent. Probably nowhere near it. But that's just speculation.

Is anything possible in the universe and couldn't god tap into this potential? I do agree that there would be limits if it isn't truly infinite but I could be mistaken.

 

[Sir Doom]

Is anything possible in the universe and couldn't god tap into this potential? I do agree that there would be limits if it isn't truly infinite but I could be mistaken.

If I understand your question right, then yes.

If you reduce the universe to something like 'all possibilities' than the universe itself would be a sort of 'default' omnipotence kind of like Heathen Hammer is suggesting with the 'rationally possible' explanation of omnipotence.

This would suggest that any being that could consciously cause any change (us for example) is tapping into this 'omnipotential' (which may just be the most pretentious thing I've ever typed). And of course, if a being was in full cognitive control of the omnipotential it would be functionally omnipotent.

This isn't real omnipotence under my definition but that is just semantics as Heathen Hammer pointed out. This type of god I'm okay with as well, though. It really suggests that god is not much different than I am which is definitely my cup of tea.

 

[Storm]

There is a difference? Why do you let that happen?

Yes there is. Who lets what happen?

 

[Sir Doom]

Yes there is. Who lets what happen?

How did you come to believe something you didn't like to believe, and now that you know you don't like to believe it, why do you continue to believe it?

EDIT: I suppose you could also find a reason to like the belief you have as opposed to believing something else, but that probably depends on the belief itself.

 

[Me Myself]

First, the purely selfish reason:
Omnipotence, by definition, must be unique. If there is more than one omnipotent being then they cancel out each other's omnipotence as they would each be something the other could not control. For this reason, I know that if omnipotence is real I am definitely not it and can't ever be. This is unacceptable to my ego. There should not be any level of power in the universe that I can't obtain (at least in theory).

look at it this way, if omnipotence is real, then only "one" will directing it. Then if you become omnipotent and you direct it, your will has become identical than the will which was originally omnipotent. So there ends up being no problem there.

Remember that if omnipotence is part of it, there is no free will, because if I cannot choose your will, then there is a power I do not have.

Second, the boring existence reason:
As an omnipotent being, you can do everything. Not only can you do everything, but you have done everything. Not only have you done everything, but you've done everything an infinite number of times. Not one single action that could ever be conceived of has gone undone into infinity. Every single possible outcome of every single action has been seen and seen and seen again. And all of this happened the instant you thought about it. So now what? There is only one thing left to do. Self-destruction or at least the destruction of omnipotence which is just as good. This is the only thing that would have a unique effect on the omnipotent being's existence. The only thing it could only do once. So, either there is no such thing as omnipotence, or if there ever was its been gone since the start. Either way, no omnipotence.

OR you just decide to keep doing everything infinitely just because. Remember that if you are omnipotent, then you also have unlimited power of your level of entertainment. In other words, you are infinitely happy unless you choose not to be

Third, predestination and the meaninglessness of us:
This one is a bit selfish as well, but basically if there is an omnipotent being then all things are simply following its undeniable instructions. Therefore, my life and the lives of my fellow human beings would amount to little more than those circular cards you put in your viewmaster and look at pictures of the Grand Canyon on. I like this horrible, messed up planet and I like to think it has taken a lot of work on our part to get it here. I can't conciously cheapen all of that suffereing and progress by equating it to nothing more than some cosmic gag-reel. Every choice I've agonized about would be agony for agony's sake since the choice was made long before I existed. And for what? What could any of my struggles possibly gain for such a being? Nothing at all. I am willing to concede that life might be meaningless with or without this being, but its DEFINITELY meaningless WITH it and I refuse to purposefully choose meaninglessness.

For what? Divine masochism of course You are God bored of feeling omnipotent, so he felt it would be fun to trick himself into thinking he is not omnipotent and trick himself to feel he is not enjoying this in the deepest level...


Ta -DA!

 

[Storm]

How did you come to believe something you didn't like to believe, and now that you know you don't like to believe it, why do you continue to believe it?

Because neither belief nor preference have any effect on reality. Reality is not always pleasant.

 

[Sir Doom]

look at it this way, if omnipotence is real, then only "one" will directing it. Then if you become omnipotent and you direct it, your will has become identical than the will which was originally omnipotent. So there ends up being no problem there.

Remember that if omnipotence is part of it, there is no free will, because if I cannot choose your will, then there is a power I do not have.

I'm not sure how the new omnipotent being is bound to become identical to the first. If the two beings act exactly the same and never disagree than they are really just one being. If on the other hand they disagree on anything this eliminates omnipotence and we're back to something I can handle

OR you just decide to keep doing everything infinitely just because. Remember that if you are omnipotent, then you also have unlimited power of your level of entertainment. In other words, you are infinitely happy unless you choose not to be

Yeah but happiness isn't the problem, its change. You'd be infinitely happy either way.

For what? Divine masochism of course You are God bored of feeling omnipotent, so he felt it would be fun to trick himself into thinking he is not omnipotent and trick himself to feel he is not enjoying this in the deepest level...

Perfectly okay with this too! If god puts himself in my body to see what human feels like, than he has limited himself and therefore destroyed omnipotence. I am not capable of being omnipotent at will meaning I can't "take it back" once it's done. I am now human as opposed to omnipotent. No omnipotence!

 

[Sir Doom]

Because neither belief nor preference have any effect on reality. Reality is not always pleasant.

I believe that I prefer to type that you are wrong about this. And reality is born!

I love to believe in scientific facts. A lot of these suck but the overarching idea that science is at least a semi-accurate predictor of reality makes me sleep better at night. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Me Myself]

I'm not sure how the new omnipotent being is bound to become identical to the first. If the two beings act exactly the same and never disagree than they are really just one being. If on the other hand they disagree on anything this eliminates omnipotence and we're back to something I can handle




Yeah but happiness isn't the problem, its change. You'd be infinitely happy either way.




Perfectly okay with this too! If god puts himself in my body to see what human feels like, than he has limited himself and therefore destroyed omnipotence. I am not capable of being omnipotent at will meaning I can't "take it back" once it's done. I am now human as opposed to omnipotent. No omnipotence!

You are the infinite experiencing the 4 and trying to say you are limited .

the 4 is limited, but you are still infinite

I guess I could just sum all this up with I am a determinist monist xD

 

[idav]

If I understand your question right, then yes.

If you reduce the universe to something like 'all possibilities' than the universe itself would be a sort of 'default' omnipotence kind of like Heathen Hammer is suggesting with the 'rationally possible' explanation of omnipotence.

This would suggest that any being that could consciously cause any change (us for example) is tapping into this 'omnipotential' (which may just be the most pretentious thing I've ever typed). And of course, if a being was in full cognitive control of the omnipotential it would be functionally omnipotent.

This isn't real omnipotence under my definition but that is just semantics as Heathen Hammer pointed out. This type of god I'm okay with as well, though. It really suggests that god is not much different than I am which is definitely my cup of tea.

I'm with you on all that. With your 'omnipotential' (nice word) I wonder if that doesn't already make god omnipotent. Does God have to actually use all of his omnipotence or does only potential need to be there? He would at least need to be able to act on the potential if god desired to do so.

 

[Storm]

I believe that I prefer to type that you are wrong about this. And reality is born!

I love to believe in scientific facts. A lot of these suck but the overarching idea that science is at least a semi-accurate predictor of reality makes me sleep better at night. Wouldn't you agree?

WTF are you talking about?

If I don't like rainbows, to the point of denying they exist, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Sir Doom]

WTF are you talking about?

If I don't like rainbows, to the point of denying they exist, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Try it, you might be surprised.

I've never actually tried to will anything out of existence as I am pretty much in love with the universe's physical properties and would rather have them dictate the majority of reality since I don't really know what I'm doing. In addition to that, I wouldn't even know where to begin to not like something that I like just for an argument. I assume you will have similar difficulty.

I suppose you could say something like, "Rainbows don't exist. Its just refracted light creating an optical illusion. And they're ugly, too!" And then start some world wide campaign to abolish the idea of rainbows from everyone's mind. Quite a lot of effort, but not inconceivable.

 

[Sir Doom]

You are the infinite experiencing the 4 and trying to say you are limited .

the 4 is limited, but you are still infinite

I guess I could just sum all this up with I am a determinist monist xD

I suppose you are right. Ultimately you would still be the infinite being or what have you. In order for the experience to be genuine, though you'd have to be just like everyone else, and therefore unable to return to the infinite without some outside catalyst (death for example).