Near Death Experiences

[challupa]

I wasn't sure where to put something of this nature, so if it's in the wrong spot, please feel free to move it admin.

Around 12 years of age I turned my back on a very rigid Christian church that my parents were part of and joined the ranks of people who do not believe there is a God. For a better part of my life I have not seen anything to change my mind about that. However, after reading quite a few near death experiences, I slowly became less sure and now am more agnostic. I just don't know.

But in the past few months I have come across 2 near death experiences that have really resonated with me. One book "Dying to be Me' by Anita Moorjani and the other being the 'Backwards' series by Nanci L. Danison.

The reason why these two have resonated with me is because of my meditation practice. I started to meditate to control chronic pain after an injury and life started to change for me and become less clear in the realm of spirituality. I started to receive what I call 'insights' during meditation. I never thought much of them and wrote some of them down and put them away. They did start an interest in studying the religions of the world and writing a book about that subject. However, my belief was still, God cannot be proven and my 'insights' were not given a lot of weight.

Then I read these two books and they both stated many of the things I had been getting in my meditation time. This has effected me in two ways. One is confusion and unsettled because they don't exactly match what my beliefs have been, and the second response if excitement. It made me wonder how my insights I received during meditation came so close to the experiences of these two women during their NDE? Was there any truth to any of it.

So this thread is to explore that. I am hoping others can help me sort out some of what is bothering me and also give me insights you may have. Has anyone read these books and is so, what did you think of them? In general, what do you feel the NDE is all about?

I would like to say that no matter what my beliefs have been as an atheist and now an agnostic, the traditional idea of who God is, is not part of my belief set. I do not believe there is such a God as the traditional religions think of as God. That's not meant to be offending, but rather to give you further insight into where I am at in my journey.

Look forward to hearing other's thoughts.

 

[George-ananda]

Interesting post to me. I became an atheist at about the age you did and it was near-death experiences that a few years later sparked my interest in spiritual matters.

I personally believe there is spiritual truth to the near-death experiences for a variety of reasons. (I’ve wasted countless hours on RF debating with the hard-core skeptics who’ll argue there is nothing to this but hallucination).

From there I became interested in other seemingly paranormal issues and came to the belief that the atheist-materialist view of the human experience is DRAMATICALLY incomplete. And later I came to accept the teachings of eastern (Hinduish) spiritual teachers to whom this paranormal stuff is normal and part of a grander universe than the one currently understood by western science.

 

[challupa]

Interesting post to me. I became an atheist at about the age you did and it was near-death experiences that a few years later sparked my interest in spiritual matters.

I personally believe there is spiritual truth to the near-death experiences for a variety of reasons. (I’ve wasted countless hours on RF debating with the hard-core skeptics who’ll argue there is nothing to this but hallucination).

From there I became interested in other seemingly paranormal issues and came to the belief that the atheist-materialist view of the human experience is DRAMATICALLY incomplete. And later I came to accept the teachings of eastern (Hinduish) spiritual teachers to whom this paranormal stuff is normal and part of a grander universe than the one currently understood by western science.

Interesting. It has resonated for you too then. I have been studying the various religions in the last decade, their history and origins and have found it interesting. By far the Eastern philosophy is more interesting to me. It's been an interesting journey. I still don't know what I believe, but I am willing to study it further now.

 

[JayJayDee]

Haven't you got to ask why, if there is a spiritual realm, we are born as material beings on an extremely small material planet in a vast material universe?

If the spiritual realm is the superior one, where all end up anyway, what is the point of this life and all the tragedy it brings whilst we live here? What is death, if we go on living?

Who occupies the spirit realm and what relationship do they have with us material beings? Why do good spirits and bad spirits exist?

What do NDE tell us? Why do only some people have them?

If you can answer those questions, then you're onto something. :yes:

 

[George-ananda]

I believe in eastern (Hindu) religious concepts and reincarnation so my answers come from that perspective.

Haven't you got to ask why, if there is a spiritual realm, we are born as material beings on an extremely small material planet in a vast material universe?

We choose to experience a physical life to allow us to grow spiritually through the challenges of human and physical existence.

If the spiritual realm is the superior one, where all end up anyway, what is the point of this life and all the tragedy it brings whilst we live here?

To provide challenge for growing experiences. We can only appreciate that spiritual realm as far as we have grown. A younger cruder soul does not have the appreciation of higher things.

What is death, if we go on living?

Just the soul dropping its outermost shell, the physical body. It will absorb the lessons of that physical experience on a spiritual plane and, until liberation, return again in a new body.

Who occupies the spirit realm and what relationship do they have with us material beings? Why do good spirits and bad spirits exist?

Deceased humans temporarily occupy this realm but humans are just a tiny tiny sliver of all the beings on the many layers of the spiritual planes. Bad spirits are just good spirits in a temporary state of confusion.

What do NDE tell us?

That there are planes more beautiful and loving than this physical plane.

Why do only some people have them?

In death the spiritual bodies lose their ability to maintain a connection to the physical body (because of damage to the physical form). Everybody has this experience at true death. This trigger stimulus for releasing is more sensitive in certain people who are more apt to have NDEs.

If you can answer those questions, then you're onto something. :yes:

You be the judge of that. Well that’s my two cents.

 

[Zanuku]

I believe near death experiences are created from possibly head trauma, oxygen starvation or a simple deep dream created from the unconsciousness of being near-death and in no way are related to anything to do with gods or the supernatural.

 

[gilligan8914]

The author of this topic says nothing about a belief in gods or the supernatural, only insights. Read the last two lines.

 

[Zanuku]

The author of this topic says nothing about a belief in gods or the supernatural, only insights. Read the last two lines.

Sorry, it was mostly aimed toward George posting about the possibility of spiritual truth to near-death experiences.

 

[JayJayDee]

I believe in eastern (Hindu) religious concepts and reincarnation so my answers come from that perspective.

I come from a Biblical perspective (obviously) and from what I have read, many have been turned off Christianity by the false teachings of Christendom.

I do not believe in reincarnation for the simple reason that I believe that death is actually death. I do not subscribe to the notion of an immortal soul in man that survives the death of the body. The Bible does not teach this.

God put 'life or death' before his people, not 'heaven or hell'.

When Adam disobeyed, he was sentenced to death, which meant going 'back to the dust'. There was no mention of heaven or hell or any other kind of afterlife.

In order for humans to live again, God said he would restore them to life by means of a resurrection. All the resurrections that were performed by Jesus and his apostles, all were restored back to life on earth, reunited with their grieving families. This is what God promised. (John 5:28, 29)

We choose to experience a physical life to allow us to grow spiritually through the challenges of human and physical existence.

Seems strange that any intelligent spirit entity would choose to come to earth through the violent act of rape or as the unfortunate consequence of a one night stand.

I have no reason to believe that any human has lived before.

I have reason to believe that the first lie told in Eden, that disobeying God did not really mean death, but that they 'surely would not die', is perpetuated by the notion that death is not death at all, just the transition to another life in another unseen place.

To provide challenge for growing experiences. We can only appreciate that spiritual realm as far as we have grown. A younger cruder soul does not have the appreciation of higher things.

Who told you that? Isn't life itself a continuous learning curve. We die with our life experiences finished. We do not get another shot at getting it right, only to take another shot without memory of past mistakes. What of infants who die? How is no life experience beneficial for learning?

We make choices and sometimes we live or die by those choices. I don't believe that this life is a rehearsal for another life, even if that seems appealing to many people.

Just the soul dropping its outermost shell, the physical body. It will absorb the lessons of that physical experience on a spiritual plane and, until liberation, return again in a new body.

Again, who told you that? If there is no soul that continues living after death, then reincarnation falls flat on its face. What proof do you have that spirits are the souls of diseased humans?

The meaning of the word soul from the Biblical perspective is a living being. It breathes, has blood in its veins and experiences life in the physical realm. In Eden, God did not "give" Adam a soul...he breathed life into him and Adam "became" a living soul. Man IS a soul. When man dies, the soul dies too. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Deceased humans temporarily occupy this realm but humans are just a tiny tiny sliver of all the beings on the many layers of the spiritual planes. Bad spirits are just good spirits in a temporary state of confusion.

Deceased humans, according to the Bible, occupy nothing but their graves. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10) There is no conscious activity there. Humans do not live beyond the grave until the foretold resurrection takes place in the future. Jesus will then call all the dead out of their sleep state, just like he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28, 29: John 11:11)

That there are planes more beautiful and loving than this physical plane.

I have no doubt about that, but this is not a place for disembodied humans. There is no such thing as a disembodied human according to the Bible.

Spirit beings occupy the spirit realm, material beings occupy the material realm. That is the way God made things. I don't believe that Earth was ever intended to be a training ground for heaven.

In death the spiritual bodies lose their ability to maintain a connection to the physical body (because of damage to the physical form). Everybody has this experience at true death. This trigger stimulus for releasing is more sensitive in certain people who are more apt to have NDEs.

There is a reasonable medical explanation for NDE's. There is also the fact that wicked spirits will target us at our most vulnerable times. Deception is their stock in trade....so why not perpetuate the lie that we do not really die?
"The angel of light" trick has worked for the adversary and his minions for millenniums.

Well that’s my two cents.

Thank you.

Just as a side note and a bit off topic....I am naturally repelled by any form of idolatry, so any religion that relies on imagery to depict their gods has nothing to offer me personally.

Since most former Christians know that the God of the Bible forbids the making of images to be used in worship, how do they accommodate such things without that nagging feeling that it is wrong?

Just curious, if any here were a former Christians.

 

[George-ananda]

I come from a Biblical perspective (obviously) and from what I have read, many have been turned off Christianity by the false teachings of Christendom.

I do not believe in reincarnation for the simple reason that I believe that death is actually death. I do not subscribe to the notion of an immortal soul in man that survives the death of the body. The Bible does not teach this.

God put 'life or death' before his people, not 'heaven or hell'.

When Adam disobeyed, he was sentenced to death, which meant going 'back to the dust'. There was no mention of heaven or hell or any other kind of afterlife.

In order for humans to live again, God said he would restore them to life by means of a resurrection. All the resurrections that were performed by Jesus and his apostles, all were restored back to life on earth, reunited with their grieving families. This is what God promised. (John 5:28, 29)



Seems strange that any intelligent spirit entity would choose to come to earth through the violent act of rape or as the unfortunate consequence of a one night stand.

I have no reason to believe that any human has lived before.

I have reason to believe that the first lie told in Eden, that disobeying God did not really mean death, but that they 'surely would not die', is perpetuated by the notion that death is not death at all, just the transition to another life in another unseen place.



Who told you that? Isn't life itself a continuous learning curve. We die with our life experiences finished. We do not get another shot at getting it right, only to take another shot without memory of past mistakes. What of infants who die? How is no life experience beneficial for learning?

We make choices and sometimes we live or die by those choices. I don't believe that this life is a rehearsal for another life, even if that seems appealing to many people.



Again, who told you that? If there is no soul that continues living after death, then reincarnation falls flat on its face. What proof do you have that spirits are the souls of diseased humans?

The meaning of the word soul from the Biblical perspective is a living being. It breathes, has blood in its veins and experiences life in the physical realm. In Eden, God did not "give" Adam a soul...he breathed life into him and Adam "became" a living soul. Man IS a soul. When man dies, the soul dies too. (Ezekiel 18:4)



Deceased humans, according to the Bible, occupy nothing but their graves. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10) There is no conscious activity there. Humans do not live beyond the grave until the foretold resurrection takes place in the future. Jesus will then call all the dead out of their sleep state, just like he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28, 29: John 11:11)


I have no doubt about that, but this is not a place for disembodied humans. There is no such thing as a disembodied human according to the Bible.

Spirit beings occupy the spirit realm, material beings occupy the material realm. That is the way God made things. I don't believe that Earth was ever intended to be a training ground for heaven.



There is a reasonable medical explanation for NDE's. There is also the fact that wicked spirits will target us at our most vulnerable times. Deception is their stock in trade....so why not perpetuate the lie that we do not really die?
"The angel of light" trick has worked for the adversary and his minions for millenniums.



Thank you.

Just as a side note and a bit off topic....I am naturally repelled by any form of idolatry, so any religion that relies on imagery to depict their gods has nothing to offer me personally.

Since most former Christians know that the God of the Bible forbids the making of images to be used in worship, how do they accommodate such things without that nagging feeling that it is wrong?

Just curious, if any here were a former Christians.

I didn't realize you were a Jehovah Witness. Did your religion field say JW earlier today or did you just change it to that?

 

[JayJayDee]

I didn't realize you were a Jehovah Witness. Did your religion field say JW earlier today or did you just change it to that?

I changed it some time ago. Does it make a difference? I was not raised a JW, but chose to become a Witness after much study.

 

[The Wizard]

I wasn't sure where to put something of this nature, so if it's in the wrong spot, please feel free to move it admin.

Around 12 years of age I turned my back on a very rigid Christian church that my parents were part of and joined the ranks of people who do not believe there is a God. For a better part of my life I have not seen anything to change my mind about that. However, after reading quite a few near death experiences, I slowly became less sure and now am more agnostic. I just don't know.

But in the past few months I have come across 2 near death experiences that have really resonated with me. One book "Dying to be Me' by Anita Moorjani and the other being the 'Backwards' series by Nanci L. Danison.

The reason why these two have resonated with me is because of my meditation practice. I started to meditate to control chronic pain after an injury and life started to change for me and become less clear in the realm of spirituality. I started to receive what I call 'insights' during meditation. I never thought much of them and wrote some of them down and put them away. They did start an interest in studying the religions of the world and writing a book about that subject. However, my belief was still, God cannot be proven and my 'insights' were not given a lot of weight.

Then I read these two books and they both stated many of the things I had been getting in my meditation time. This has effected me in two ways. One is confusion and unsettled because they don't exactly match what my beliefs have been, and the second response if excitement. It made me wonder how my insights I received during meditation came so close to the experiences of these two women during their NDE? Was there any truth to any of it.

So this thread is to explore that. I am hoping others can help me sort out some of what is bothering me and also give me insights you may have. Has anyone read these books and is so, what did you think of them? In general, what do you feel the NDE is all about?

I would like to say that no matter what my beliefs have been as an atheist and now an agnostic, the traditional idea of who God is, is not part of my belief set. I do not believe there is such a God as the traditional religions think of as God. That's not meant to be offending, but rather to give you further insight into where I am at in my journey.

Look forward to hearing other's thoughts.

Meditation was what dragged me kicking and screaming out of the materialistic mind set. I was into objectivism and atheism for about 10 plus years before. But, my whole world changed, eventually. Too many experiences to even contemplate. Too many insights. Too many jaw dropping things beyond belief... Too many things in front of my face that wasn't supposed to exist..

Actually, from experience... if one is a sincere atheist on the quest for truth they usually have a whopper waiting for them. If not, then they are probably doing it wrong. And, I mean such things sincerely, if I weren't an atheist I would of never found what I was searching for...

 

[1137]

Strange, I became an atheist as well until things like NDEs sparked my interest in psychology. Meditation as well, the brain is so fantastically amazing.

 

[George-ananda]

I changed it some time ago. Does it make a difference? I was not raised a JW, but chose to become a Witness after much study.

No doesn't affect my answers. I just like to tailor my reply to concepts familiar to the reader. Best wishes.

 

[George-ananda]

I believe near death experiences are created from possibly head trauma, oxygen starvation or a simple deep dream created from the unconsciousness of being near-death and in no way are related to anything to do with gods or the supernatural.

As it was my post that prompted this comment: My guess is that you were just quick to accept these explanations as they are compatible with atheism.

Things like knowledge of events that couldn't have been known through normal means are much better documented than atheists are willing to realize.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As it was my post that prompted this comment: My guess is that you were just quick to accept these explanations as they are compatible with atheism.

Things like knowledge of events that couldn't have been known through normal means are much better documented than atheists are willing to realize.

We've gone through this in several other threads. Every time you've been challenged to provide this documentation, what you do provide has always come up lacking, and your claims have been shown to be either unsupported or demonstrably false.

Do you have anything better this time?

 

[George-ananda]

We've gone through this in several other threads. Every time you've been challenged to provide this documentation, what you do provide has always come up lacking, and your claims have been shown to be either unsupported or demonstrably false.

Do you have anything better this time?

Oh..oh......enter the Penguin

What I came up with did not come up lacking. You always fashioned your own version of what happened. Blind people knowing about clothes colors, and on and on.

There is no such thing as an unchallengeable anecdotal story! How can there ever be?

No sense repeating ourselves.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh..oh......enter the Penguin

What I came up with did not come up lacking. You always fashioned your own version of what happened. Blind people knowing about clothes colors, and on and on.

Come again?

The only instance I can think of that was even remotely like that was when you gave us a story of a woman who "saw" details of her operating room, supposedly while clinically dead. You put this forward claiming that she had no way to know these details without her seeing them as part of an NDE. I read the actual account of the woman's procedure and found that she had been brought into the operating room while conscious and only then was she anesthatized.

But based in your track record, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at more misrepresentation of the facts.

There is no such thing as an unchallengeable anecdotal story! How can there ever be?

No sense repeating ourselves.

Yes, anecdotal evidence is generally poor evidence. But this problem doesn't go away just because you acknowledge it.

 

[1137]

Oh..oh......enter the Penguin

What I came up with did not come up lacking. You always fashioned your own version of what happened. Blind people knowing about clothes colors, and on and on.

There is no such thing as an unchallengeable anecdotal story! How can there ever be?

No sense repeating ourselves.

In every NDE thread you all but say your beliefs hold no merit. Just go all the way already, NDEs are fully explainable.

 

[George-ananda]

In every NDE thread you all but say your beliefs hold no merit. Just go all the way already, NDEs are fully explainable.

Dude, that's exactly the opposite of where I've been headed.

When I said 'There is no such thing as an unchallengeable anecdotal story!' I didn't mean that they should then be discarded...We can have very strong reasonable evidence but we cannot have inarguable 'proof' like the Penguin is asking for. Give him a story and he'll find a challenge. Anyone can do the same. My point is after doing that enough times he loses reasonableness.

Get it?