Muslims Celebrate US Recognition of Same-Sex Marriage

[gsa]

So reports The Daily Beast:

Novelist Nafisa Haji, an American living in Turkey, was celebrating. She told the Daily Beast: “I am thrilled at the news today, as a human being, as a woman, as a Muslim. My grandfather, who was a learned and pious Muslim, always said that marriage in Islam is merely a contract. And that Islam is a force for liberation and love. Those principles are evolutionary as well as revolutionary. They mean that the definition of everything social is subject to change. And this—the right of all Americans to form a contract based on love—is a change I celebrate.”

While this may constitute a small minority, it is still an interesting development, demonstrating the way in which religion can change and morph as a result of cross-cultural experiences, including immigration.

 

[Sabour]

So reports The Daily Beast:


While this may constitute a small minority, it is still an interesting development, demonstrating the way in which religion can change and morph as a result of cross-cultural experiences, including immigration.

That doesn't represent Islam. We as people are in no position to change what Islam stands for.

 

[gsa]

That doesn't represent Islam. We as people are in no position to change what Islam stands for.

I do not think it is representative of Islam today. It may be representative of Islam's trajectory in the US, and its future among Muslims everywhere. Christians and Jews opposed to change said the same thing in the past, and say it today. That doesn't mean that the religion is static.

 

[Sabour]

I do not think it is representative of Islam today. It may be representative of Islam's trajectory in the US, and its future among Muslims everywhere. Christians and Jews opposed to change said the same thing in the past, and say it today. That doesn't mean that the religion is static.

Islam is not static in a way that it is suitable and adjustable for every time and every place. However there are basics and foundations that will never change.

Islam is based from Quraan, the direct revelation from God, and the Sunnah, the actions of the way the prophet lived. These two will not change with time and Islam is Islam. So what you are saying will never be the case. That is the way I see it.

 

[Glaurung]

Christians and Jews opposed to change said the same thing in the past, and say it today. That doesn't mean that the religion is static.

And those Christians and Jews are absolutely right. The precise mechanisms of religious discipline may be subject to change, but the moral principles underlining authentic religion simply aren't. Any Christian who supports the sanctioning of mortal sin is as good as an apostate. It doesn't matter if the vast majority become blind to the gravity of sin, the road to Hell is wide and it's paved all the way with good intentions.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

And those Christians and Jews are absolutely right. The precise mechanisms of religious discipline may be subject to change, but the moral principles underlining authentic religion simply aren't. Any Christian who supports the sanctioning of mortal sin is as good as an apostate. It doesn't matter if the vast majority become blind to the gravity of sin, the road to Hell is wide and it's paved all the way with good intentions.

Well I guess Christians should stop claiming they're the largest religious group in the States then. Because by your argument they aren't any more.

 

[Glaurung]

Well I guess Christians should stop claiming they're the largest religious group in the States then. Because by your argument they aren't any more.

And?

21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

It really is an all or nothing proposition. Those Christians who support gay marriage may well have good intentions, but good intent does not trump the moral law which God has revealed by both revelation and natural law. Any Christian who puts his own personal sentiment of right and wrong ahead of his moral obligations to God, puts his soul in serious risk.

This isn't really just about gay marriage in of itself; gay marriage and all the moral evils of our day are only a symptom of a much deeper problem. It's the loss of faith and the consequential, and deepening debauchery of western civilisation. As a Catholic, I take heed of the warnings that Our Lady has given us through various apparitions (particularly Faitma). God isn't blind, and he isn't going to let things slide forever.

 

[Shad]

And?

It really is an all or nothing proposition. Those Christians who support gay marriage may well have good intentions, but good intent does not trump the moral law which God has revealed by both revelation and natural law. Any Christian who puts his own personal sentiment of right and wrong ahead of his moral obligations to God, puts his soul in serious risk.

This isn't really just about gay marriage in of itself; gay marriage and all the moral evils of our day are only a symptom of a much deeper problem. It's the loss of faith and the consequential, and deepening debauchery of western civilisation. As a Catholic, I take heed of the warnings that Our Lady has given us through various apparitions (particularly Faitma). God isn't blind, and he isn't going to let things slide forever.

Same standard rhetoric spouted by every doomsayer in history. God never stepped in to stop any of the massive wars of the last century nor preceding centuries but he is going to get all hot and bother that people are going to the exact same thing they have always done in history, including in the history of your scripture when it was convenient. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Glaurung]

Same standard rhetoric spouted by every doomsayer in history. God never stepped in to stop any of the massive wars of the last century nor preceding centuries but he is going to get all hot and bother that people are going to the exact same thing they have always done in history, including in the history of your scripture when it was convenient. I won't hold my breath.

There will always be conflict so long as humans are subject to their fallen natures. You can't seriously blame God for the wars that human beings start for the sake of their own selfish ambitions. Human beings have free agency, even to the point of starting wars. God is not some cosmic referee of human political affairs.

The approved apparitions (of which belief is not required) never warn of doomsday, actually it's the other way around. What they do predict is a near utter collapse of faith and a moral degradation that will reach unprecedented levels. That just when the Christian faith is at the brink of being utterly blotted out God will intervene with chastisement which will leave no question about God and the reality of his law. Every living human being will see it. (What it will be exactly we don't know). Whether or not you put any stock in the apparitions and various visions of the saints, the end of the world isn't what is being talked about.

The fact that an increasing multitude gloat in the declining of Christianity and Christian principles is in no way unexpected for me. I'm fully expecting its almost total abandonment by the west, but I'm reassured by Christ's promise to Peter:

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

One way or the other, God will win in the end. A century is a blink of an eye for God.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There will always be conflict so long as humans as subject to their fallen natures. You can't seriously blame God for the wars that human beings start for the sake of their own selfish ambitions. Human beings have free agency, even to the point of starting wars. God is not some cosmic referee of human political affairs.

The approved apparitions (of which belief is not required) never warn of doomsday, actually it's the other way around. What they do predict is a near utter collapse of faith and a moral degradation that will reach unprecedented levels. That just when the Christian faith is at the brink of being utterly blotted out God will intervene with chastisement which will leave no question about God and the reality of his law. Every living human being will see it. (What it will be exactly we don't know). Whether or not you put any stock in the apparitions and various visions of the saints, the end of the world isn't what is being talked about.

The fact that an increasing multitude gloat in the declining of Christianity and Christian principles is in no way unexpected for me. I'm fully expecting its almost total abandonment by the west, but I'm reassured by Christ's promise to Peter:

One way or the other, God will win in the end. A century is a blink of an eye for God.

Very well put, brother.

 

[Nietzsche]

There will always be conflict so long as humans are subject to their fallen natures. You can't seriously blame God for the wars that human beings start for the sake of their own selfish ambitions. Human beings have free agency, even to the point of starting wars. God is not some cosmic referee of human political affairs.

Your God makes the claim of Omnipotence, and that he is 'our Shepard'. An omnipotent being can do all things, not just everything, all things. A shepherd protects his flock to the best of his ability, both from outside conflict and internal conflict. This draws three possible conclusions.

1. Your God is willing but not able. That's fine. Odin isn't omnipotent. But he doesn't claim it, either.
2. Your God is not willing but able. That too is fine. But don't call yourself a shepherd if you just go have a wank while the flock tramples itself because they're sheep.

And third;. Your God doesn't exist. I don't have the authority, or if I'm honest the knowledge, to flat-out say your God doesn't exist. So I'm not. I'm just positing this as the third possibility.

The approved apparitions (of which belief is not required) never warn of doomsday, actually it's the other way around.

Why is it when you see things they're messages from, or at least of God, but when a friend of mine does they're delusional hallucinations and he needs therapy & medicine? And when Odin is in my presence, why is that just assumed to be either the former(delusions), misinterpretations or flat-out "Satan did it"?

What they do predict is a near utter collapse of faith and a moral degradation that will reach unprecedented levels. That just when the Christian faith is at the brink of being utterly blotted out God will intervene with chastisement which will leave no question about God and the reality of his law.

Most people would call this "neglect".

Every living human being will see it. (What it will be exactly we don't know). Whether or not you put any stock in the apparitions and various visions of the saints, the end of the world isn't what is being talked about. The fact that an increasing multitude gloat in the declining of Christianity and Christian principles is in no way unexpected for me.

Wait. What is a "Christian Principle"? Because most of the stuff Christians claim to be moral are found throughout the world, predating the Israelites, let alone the Nazarene.

God will win in the end. A century is a blink of an eye for God.

I'd hope so. But you sure it'll be just a century? People have been saying the End is Nigh for literally forever, or at least as long as we've had people. And yet this stubborn, if unremarkable, little iron orb with its blue-green coat of paint keeps making revolutions around its equally unremarkable, equally average star.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There will always be conflict so long as humans are subject to their fallen natures. You can't seriously blame God for the wars that human beings start for the sake of their own selfish ambitions. Human beings have free agency, even to the point of starting wars.

Your god could have forgiven any successive generation of the sins of Adam & Eve and healed them of their 'fallen' nature. Why? He's all-powerful, apparently, and doesn't need a reason let alone an excuse. He could forgive humanity at any time but does not. And apparently we'll be subject to eternal suffering for it. Besides, it's because of your deity's scheme of metaphysical entrapment that we're 'fallen' in the first place.

God is not some cosmic referee of human political affairs.

Except for the times he has interfered in human affairs, political and otherwise, certainly. He's supported kings then withdrawn that support if the OT is to be believed, he's assisted in the rise of nations and then their fall (Babylon), he's meddled vicariously in the affairs of Egypt, he's committed global genocide at least once, he's confounded the people building the Tower of Babel, presumably destroying their respective cultures in the process. So yeah, apart from all those times he doesn't interfere.

 

[fantome profane]

Any Christian who supports ....

I don't think anybody is asking for your support for anything. Your support is neither required nor desired. Just get out of the way.

 

[metis]

And those Christians and Jews are absolutely right. The precise mechanisms of religious discipline may be subject to change, but the moral principles underlining authentic religion simply aren't. Any Christian who supports the sanctioning of mortal sin is as good as an apostate. It doesn't matter if the vast majority become blind to the gravity of sin, the road to Hell is wide and it's paved all the way with good intentions.

But to a very large extent this relates to how one views the scriptures themselves. A person who questions the concepts of "divine inspiration" and "inerrancy" is likely to draw some different conclusions that the fundamentalists who firmly believe in both.

 

[psychoslice]

That doesn't represent Islam. We as people are in no position to change what Islam stands for.

That is so sad.

 

[Shad]

There will always be conflict so long as humans are subject to their fallen natures. You can't seriously blame God for the wars that human beings start for the sake of their own selfish ambitions. Human beings have free agency, even to the point of starting wars. God is not some cosmic referee of human political affairs.

I never blamed God for our wars unless he commanded it in the Bible. However I can hold God responsible for his inaction while doomsayers hold up the internet version of card board signs with "The end is night!" on it. You point is a strawman, nothing more.

The approved apparitions (of which belief is not required) never warn of doomsday, actually it's the other way around. What they do predict is a near utter collapse of faith and a moral degradation that will reach unprecedented levels. That just when the Christian faith is at the brink of being utterly blotted out God will intervene with chastisement which will leave no question about God and the reality of his law. Every living human being will see it. (What it will be exactly we don't know). Whether or not you put any stock in the apparitions and various visions of the saints, the end of the world isn't what is being talked about.

It is still doomsaying.

The fact that an increasing multitude gloat in the declining of Christianity and Christian principles is in no way unexpected for me. I'm fully expecting its almost total abandonment by the west, but I'm reassured by Christ's promise to Peter:

I think it is the liberal forms of Christanity which will die out. Evangelicals, fundamental Protestants and the RCC will survive for a number of reasons. I am not sure of Orthodox given it varies. I could see the Russian Orthodox Church surviving as it has ties with the government.

One way or the other, God will win in the end. A century is a blink of an eye for God.

More doomsaying

 

[LuisDantas]

That doesn't represent Islam. We as people are in no position to change what Islam stands for.

That is doubly sad to hear. I'm so sorry.

 

[LuisDantas]

And those Christians and Jews are absolutely right. The precise mechanisms of religious discipline may be subject to change, but the moral principles underlining authentic religion simply aren't. Any Christian who supports the sanctioning of mortal sin is as good as an apostate. It doesn't matter if the vast majority become blind to the gravity of sin, the road to Hell is wide and it's paved all the way with good intentions.

Such as the intention to keep true to tradition, even if it means being oblivious to the demands of basic decency?

 

[Glaurung]

Such as the intention to keep true to tradition, even if it means being oblivious to the demands of basic decency?

My conscience before God is far more important than what political establishment dictates as 'decency'. It's not my place from stopping people from doing what they want, but no matter how much they whine they will never get my sanction for what I believe to be intrinsically immoral.

I never blamed God for our wars unless he commanded it in the Bible. However I can hold God responsible for his inaction while doomsayers hold up the internet version of card board signs with "The end is night!" on it. You point is a strawman, nothing more.

What end am I predicting exactly? The Bible explicitly states that the end is unknowable but by God alone. All I said that I take heed in Fatima, which simply affirms what the Scripture teaches. Human beings for the love of their own desires will do their utmost to escape the reality of God. But such an attempt will ultimately prove futile. Like it or not your heart is going to stop beating one day. And anyone who has yet to find peace with God is going to be in for a very rude shock.

But to a very large extent this relates to how one views the scriptures themselves. A person who questions the concepts of "divine inspiration" and "inerrancy" is likely to draw some different conclusions that the fundamentalists who firmly believe in both.

I frankly have more respect for those who just admit their dislike of religion and become disbelievers (at least they're honest) than the pretence that is liberal religion. We can discus the nuances of Scripture, but there's no getting around the sinfulness of homosexual acts.

For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

As much as they may try, the fundamental moral stance of the Catholic faith cannot be 'updated' to suit the sentimentalities of modern political thought.They were true when Christ gave St Peter his keys, and they will be true so long as this world exists.

 

[LuisDantas]

My conscience before God is far more important than what political establishment dictates as 'decency'. It's not my place from stopping people from doing what they want, but no matter how much they whine they will never get my sanction for what I believe to be intrinsically immoral.

Interestingly, that is exactly what I say as well. Except for the lesse part that I do not believe there is a God to examine my conscience, but that really changes nothing.