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Missionaries At My Door

WeberHome

Member
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My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and naïve, and thus assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water who came down the driveway was a fellow Christian. But when I talked this over with a Protestant church elder he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William J. Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I would not be surprised if it still does.

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards steered towards another book titled Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of classes sponsored by a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The instructor (call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watch Tower Society system for near three decades and was a wide-area manager before terminating his association with the Society; so he knew the ins and outs of its doctrines pretty good.

Pete pioneered a small organization in San Diego dedicated to de-programming and re-educating ex Witnesses. It was a challenge. The ex JW's with whom Pete worked were often very depressed with feelings of betrayal and disillusionment-- not to mention the humiliation and the despondence they were experiencing from letting themselves be duped by the Society's ingenious sophistry --and found it nigh impossible to trust ecclesiastical authority. Pete said that had he not been an ex Witness himself; many of his students would never have listened to him.

Pete didn't train us to defeat the Society's missionaries in a discussion because even if you best them scripture for scripture, rebuttal for rebuttal, and refute for refute, they will not give up on the Society. Their mind's unflinching premise is that the Society is right even when it can be easily proven wrong. No, he trained us to do seven things:

1• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it with you.

2• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately put them on the defensive with your own questions, thus denying them control of the conversation

3• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas, Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon which Christ was crucified, service in the military, and that sort of thing.

4• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not let them turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking.

5• Do not permit them to butt in and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly, insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

6• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They will sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

7• It's very important to show them the Bible not in ways they've already seen, but in ways they've never imagined.

The goal is to simply show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only interpretation out there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because they say so.

Later on, I read a book titled Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses by Ted Dencher and eventually purchased a copy of the Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to use in my discussions with missionaries because it is the one Bible that they cannot challenge; nor dare to challenge. I also read and studied the Society's little brown book titled Reasoning From The Scriptures.

From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in Society-think than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and oranges going by the same names. So your first challenge in dealing with a Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself is an Herculean task.

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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
the Society's missionaries in a discussion because even if you best them scripture for scripture, rebuttal for rebuttal, and refute for refute, they will not give up on the Society.
That has not been my experience with them. They've been rather, I don't know, understanding, maybe, when I tell them no, I'm not interested, or when I'm at a friend's house and they come knocking.
From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although the Watchtower Society uses many of Christianity's standard terms and phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in Society-think than what you'd expect. It is genuinely a case of apples and oranges going by the same names. So your first challenge in dealing with a Watch Tower missionary is to scale the semantics barrier; and that by itself is an Herculean task.
If that were the case, then every denomination that came after Catholicism is merely using Christian terms and phrases, especially if you are a Protestant and a follower of that heretical Martin Luther.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I like to talk to the JW's when they knock at my door, I just let them know how I see God, most of them will listen but some look like they want out, to me its a two way discussion, not a one way, or their way.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and naïve, and thus assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water who came down the driveway was a fellow Christian.

At the bare minimum, you'd agree that you were dealing with a fellow theist, correct?

But when I talked this over with a Protestant church elder he became alarmed; and urged me to read a little book titled 30 Years A Watchtower Slave by William J. Schnell;

30 Years A Watchtower Slave. Soon to be a major motion picture from director Steve McQueen!

After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards steered towards another book titled Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

Could you do me a favor and explain how one might go about differentiating between a cult and a "legitimate" religion?

...

Your post was quite interesting to me. As I read it, I couldn't help but notice how seamlessly one could substitute practically any religious organization in lieu of the Jehovah's Witnesses:

"The ex- _____s with whom Pete worked were often very depressed with feelings of betrayal and disillusionment-- not to mention the humiliation and the despondence they were experiencing from letting themselves be duped by the _______'s ingenious sophistry etc etc etc."

The Clergy Project is a great place to read similar stories.

...

Additionally, each of your bullet points can be (and - in the case of skeptics - probably should be) applied to any and all religious types that might come knocking on one's door:

1• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it with you.

Handing out literature is a fairly typical door-to-door sales technique, isn't it?

2• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately put them on the defensive with your own questions, thus denying them control of the conversation

I once asked a door-to-door missionary if he'd lend as much credence to the Qurʾan as he'd lend to the Bible. When he affirmed that he would (he wanted me to lend credence to his sales pitch after all), I thanked him for his time and announced that the session was concluded.

3• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas, Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon which Christ was crucified, service in the military, and that sort of thing.

I typically ask Christians to explain their religious views on slavery. Something like: "Since the Bible nowhere speaks against owning other human beings as property, would you agree that the United States' fall away from God's Favor began with the abolition of slavery?"

4• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not let them turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking.

By the time I'm done with them, missionaries are typically itching to move on.

5• Do not permit them to butt in and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly, insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

This goes back to the point above about not ceding control of the conversation, but it's a point that bears repeating.

6• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions.

See: "Slavery, would you agree that the United States' fall away from God's Favor began with the abolition of."

They will sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable.

Helpful Hint: If the missionary at your door is wearing anything flashier than a priest's collar, or if they're sporting Vatican Level Bling ... start a pot of water boiling for tea before you open the door. That way you have an excuse to close the door when they start explaining how transubstantiation works (again).

When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

I think we need a National Do-Not-Proselytize Registry to go with the National Do-Not-Call Registry.

...

Great post. Thanks for writing it.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
it seems rather narrow minded to attack someones beliefs just because they are different
While I don't agree with JWs, they are not bad or evil minded people. Half my family are JWs and personally been in Kingdom Halls and conventions numerous times in my young adult years. It's really a rather pleasant religion as it plays out, but has some unfavorable traits like aggressive prostelyzing habits and shun disfellowshipped members that can in cases tear apart families.
 

WeberHome

Member
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At the bare minimum, you'd agree that you were dealing with a fellow theist, correct?

Demons are theists (Jas 2:19) but I do not accept them as fellows.

Could you do me a favor and explain how one might go about differentiating between a cult and a "legitimate" religion?

Webster's defines a cult as-- among other things --a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous.

If we were to use traditional Christianity as a baseline, then non traditional forms of Christianity would fall into the cult category. Non traditional forms of Christianity need not always be dangerous to qualify as a cult: they just need to be extreme.

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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If we were to use traditional Christianity as a baseline, then non traditional forms of Christianity would fall into the cult category. Non traditional forms of Christianity need not always be dangerous to qualify as a cult: they just need to be extreme.
The Romans considered Christianity a cult. Actually, in the most technical definition, all religions are a cult as they require adherence to a dogma and prescribed beliefs and behaviors.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Well I'm generally polite to people who come to my door.. If they are JW, Mormon.. I explain, "We're Baha'is here...".. They usually leave.
 
I let them speak at the door and they at most times get the pamphlet in my hand and tell me they will be back. I usually hand back the pamphlet when they are done talking. I let them know that they shouldn't waste their hard earned money on me as I am not interested. I then tell them it is not out of disrespect but consideration to others that may benefit from these pamphlets. They usually are appreciative of my forthright approach.

When I was a teen i was quite mischievous with these visitors.
 

WeberHome

Member
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Well I'm generally polite to people who come to my door.

I'm glad you're courteous because Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes regard rejection of what they stand for as hatred for Jehovah's Witnesses. It's hard for some of them to see any difference between themselves and their religion.

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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
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I'm glad you're courteous because Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes regard rejection of what they stand for as hatred for Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am always happy to let them in an talk with them, not because I care about their feelings, but because I really like to talk about the various beliefs in God.

It's hard for some of them to see any difference between themselves and their religion.

I do not think that it is true for JW only. When I make fun of someone's god, usually that someone gets offended too, for some reason, even if he is not JW.
I always wondered why.

Ciao

- viole
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
In general they were very nice with me. I always accept their litterature but just avoid to speak to them because it's endless talk and i know they want me to accept their religion or go to their church or come back again for another talk.
 

WeberHome

Member
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I do not think that it is true for JW only. When I make fun of someone's god, usually that someone gets offended too, for some reason, even if he is not JW. I always wondered why.

We let our core values define us. It can't be helped; that's just the way human nature works. Hence; it is very difficult, if not nearly impossible, to correct someone's core values because to do so means tampering with their identity; which they will quite naturally defend to their dying breath even to the point of becoming hostile, obstinate, unreasonable, evasive, and/or outright dishonest. That explains, at least to some extent, why the average Catholic is so sensitive whenever somebody dares to say anything negative about their religion and/or its hierarchy and its venerated personages. I think that what we're talking about here is actually ego.

Most people like to think of themselves as intelligent human beings. When we criticize their core values, they respond to the criticism as an attack upon what they think of themselves and become emotional and reactive instead of rational and objective; thus demonstrating by their behavior that in reality, they're a bit fragile in so far as their opinion of themselves.

A truly confident person doesn't go ballistic, doesn't go into denial, or become hostile, defensive and/or emotional and reactive when their core values are under attack. Truly confident people are very tolerant of attacks upon their core values, and actually pretty good at turning the other cheek; which has somehow gone out of vogue in Christian circles.

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Unification

Well-Known Member
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We let our core values define us. It can't be helped; that's just the way human nature works. Hence; it is very difficult, if not nearly impossible, to correct someone's core values because to do so means tampering with their identity; which they will quite naturally defend to their dying breath even to the point of becoming hostile, obstinate, unreasonable, evasive, and/or outright dishonest. That explains, at least to some extent, why the average Catholic is so sensitive whenever somebody dares to say anything negative about their religion and/or its hierarchy and its venerated personages. I think that what we're talking about here is actually ego.

Most people like to think of themselves as intelligent human beings. When we criticize their core values, they respond to the criticism as an attack upon what they think of themselves and become emotional and reactive instead of rational and objective; thus demonstrating by their behavior that in reality, they're a bit fragile in so far as their opinion of themselves.

A truly confident person doesn't go ballistic, or become hostile, defensive and/or emotional and reactive when their core values are under attack. Truly confident people are very tolerant of attacks upon their core values, and actually pretty good at turning the other cheek; which has somehow gone out of vogue in Christian circles.

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Yes, and when ones territory, habitat is questioned, invaded, the beast within comes out. The animal nature that is supposed to be died to, defeated within... Is somehow still there. I suppose that's what happens when the mythogical beast is out there somewhere rather than within the being themselves. But this is universal, within all individuals, no dogma/doctrine or with dogma/doctrine.
 

WeberHome

Member
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According to Watch Tower Society theology, Jesus Christ's crucified body did not recover from death; and its remains are squirreled away in a condition, and a location, known only to God.

One of the reasons given for their theology is located on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watch Tower magazine; where it's stated: "If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be taking his sacrifice off God's altar."

In other words: it is the Society's belief that Christ's crucified body has to remain dead in order to be an effective atonement, and it has to stay on earth. What's wrong with that?

Well according to the Society, human life is entirely physical. In other words; when people die they go completely out of existence. So then, since Jesus Christ's body is still dead, then Jesus Christ no longer exists as a human being.

Q: What about Christ's alleged post resurrection appearances?

A: According to the Society; those were not actually Christ. Those were an angel named Michael disguised in a human avatar that was, in all respects, a perfect, fully functioning knock-off of the real Christ.

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