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Magic

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
What do Sikhs of it? Did any of the Guru's have any opinion of magic, spells, rituals, ect. I haven't seen or heard of one Sikh that practices it. But it shouldn't matter too much whether it's forbidden or not since Abrahamic religions aren't really supposed to, yet there are some that practice it anyway.
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
The mainstream Sikh Rehat Maryada (Code of Conduct) says, at Section Four, Chapter X [my comments in square brackets]:

A Sikh's living, earning livelihood, thinking and conduct should accord with the Guru's tenets. The Guru's tenets are:
...
d. Not believing in ... magic, spells, incantations, omens, auspicious times, days and occasions, influence of stars, horoscopic dispositions, [lots of Hindu rituals listed]. The reason is that the old rituals and practices, continued to be observed by large numbers of Sikhs even after their conversion from their old to the new faith and a large bulk of the Sikh novices were Hindu converts. Another reason for this phenomenon was the strangle-hold of the Brahmin priest on Hindus secular and religious life which the Brahmin priest managed to maintain even on those leaving the Hindu religious fold, by his astute mental dexterity and rare capacity for compromose. That the Sikh novitiates include a sizable number of Muslims in shown by inclusion in this clause of the taboos as to the sanctity of graves, shirni, etc.]

Not believing in or according any authority to Muslim seers, Brahmins holiness, soothsayers, clairvoyants, oracles, promise of an offering on the fulfillment of a wish, offering of sweet loaves or rice pudding at graves on the fulfillment of wishes....​

Source Sikh Rehat Maryada in English | Official Website of Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, Sri Amritsar

The SGPC is the governing body for mainstream Sikhs.
 
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Treks

Well-Known Member
Despite the above, some Sikhs (particularly 3HO ones) talk about the 'power of Gurbani' and that if you repeat certain shabads a certain number of times that it produces certain changes.

A "good" example of this Tera Naam - Sopurkh

I've also known non 3HO Sikhs who swear by the power of certain shabads, will play them in the background at certain times for particular effects.

Sure, this sort of thing can have an influence on the person who believes in it, no problems. When people believe it has an affect on their environment is where it gets close to what some would recognise as 'magic'.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Gurus are not please with offense (unless there is a dharmic need for it).

"Nanak Naam Chardi Kala, teraa bhane sarbat da bhala."
Nanak, with Naam comes Chardi Kala and with your blessings, peace for everyone.
To put this in very concise and clear language, the term invokes the Sikh to request, prays and asks the Almighty for the well-being of all of humanity, prosperity for everyone in the worldwide community, global peace for the entire planet.
Sarbat da bhala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
I often wondered because I don't think I've ever seen a Sikh wizard or spell caster. I'd imagine their rituals would be different but there are even Abrahamic religions that practiced it and I wondered why I've never heard of a single Sikh that practiced such things, and if they did, what kind of magic they practiced.

I wonder if they believe in abilities like telepathy or telekinesis.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Generally it depends which version of the Dungeon Master's Guide they're playing by. :p

it does depend, but Sikh wizards are excellent against fighting trolls and orcs. :p

In all seriousness I just always found it strange that I've never seen or heard of a single Sikh adherent that practiced magic or energy work. Even if their doctrine frowns upon it, there can always be others that practice it anyway, like with the Abrahamic faiths. But really you can find any magic practitioner within almost any faith even if their religion disapproves of it.
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
Regard "energy work", you will find this prevalent among the 3HO Sikh community. They also practice Kundalini Yoga.

I don't know too much about Sikhs and magic in Punjab. Perhaps @Aupmanyav can give you more information about that.

But as I said before, certain repetitions of shabads is probably as close to magic (a Western idea of magic, anyway) as you'll get.

Sikhism is a pragmatic way of life. Sikhs are encouraged to do their best, and accept the rest. Sikhs will fight, they will campaign, they will do everything they physically can, while trying to maintain a sense of acceptance and contentment. In this way, magic is not necessary. Nor is petitionary prayer. In fact, Sikhs are cautioned against praying for anything other than Naam (Naam is a perspective on reality).

Hopefully this puts things into more context.
 

Satnaam

Conquer your mind
In fact, Sikhs are cautioned against praying for anything other than Naam (Naam is a perspective on reality).

Read Bhagat Dhannas Aarta.

Sikhs are allowed to pray for basic necessities of life to survive. Even some of the Gurus had lavish lifestyles, there is nothing wrong with that either (or working towards it).

Once a Maratha saint, Samarth Ramdas During his rambles in Northern India, Samarth Ramdas met Guru Hargobind at Srinagar in about 1634. Fully armed and riding a horse, the Guru had just returned from an excursion.

“I had heard that you occupied the Gaddi of Guru Nanak”, said Swami Ramdas.

“Guru Nanak was a Tyagi sadhu - a saint who had renounced the world. You are wearing arms and keeping an army and horses. You allow yourself to be addressed as Sacha Patshah, the True King. What sort of a sadhu are you?” asked the Maratha saint.

Guru Hargobind replied, “Internally i am a hermit, and externally i am a prince. Arms mean protection to the poor and destruction of the tyrant. Baba Nanak had not renounced the world but had renounced Maya, i.e. self and ego.

These words of Guru Hargobind found a ready response in the heart of Samartha Swami Ramdas who, as quoted in Pothi Panjak Sakhian, spontaneously said, “this appealeth to my mind - Yeh hamare man bhavti hai”.
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
There is a Gurbani passage that makes it clear that Sikhs should only pray for Naam. I'll find it and share it with you, I'd like to hear your perspective on it. :)
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
Voila, from panna 958:

ਮਃ
Mėhlā 5.
Fifth Mehl:

ਵਿਣੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਿ ਮੰਗਣਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੁਖਾ ਕੈ ਦੁਖ
viṇ ṯuḏẖ hor jė mangṇā sir ḏukẖā kai ḏukẖ.
To ask for any other than You, Lord, is the most miserable of miseries.

ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ
Ḏėh nām sanṯokẖī▫ā uṯrai man kī bẖukẖ.
Please bless me with Your Name, and make me content; may the hunger of my mind be satisfied.

ਗੁਰਿ ਵਣੁ ਤਿਣੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਕੀਤਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਮਨੁਖ ॥੨॥
Gur vaṇ ṯiṇ hari▫ā kīṯi▫ā Nānak ki▫ā manukẖ. ||2||
The Guru has made the woods and meadows green again. O Nanak, is it any wonder that He blesses human beings as well? ||2||​
 
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Treks

Well-Known Member
Another example, from panna 258:

ਪਉੜੀ
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:

ਮਮਾ ਮਾਗਨਹਾਰ ਇਆਨਾ
Mamā māganhār i▫ānā.
MAMMA: The beggar is so ignorant -

ਦੇਨਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁਜਾਨਾ
Ḏenhār ḏe rahi▫o sujānā.
the Great Giver continues to give. He is All-knowing.

ਜੋ ਦੀਨੋ ਸੋ ਏਕਹਿ ਬਾਰ
Jo ḏīno so ekėh bār.
Whatever He gives, He gives once and for all.

ਮਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਕਹ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ
Man mūrakẖ kah karahi pukār.
O foolish mind, why do you complain, and cry out so loud?

ਜਉ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਤਉ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਬੀਆ
Ja▫o māgėh ṯa▫o māgėh bī▫ā.
Whenever you ask for something, you ask for worldly things;

ਜਾ ਤੇ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਾਹੂ ਥੀਆ
Jā ṯe kusal na kāhū thī▫ā.
no one has obtained happiness from these.

ਮਾਗਨਿ ਮਾਗ ਏਕਹਿ ਮਾਗ
Māgan māg ṯa ekėh māg.
If you must ask for a gift, then ask for the One Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪਰਹਿ ਪਰਾਗ ॥੪੧॥
Nānak jā ṯe parėh parāg. ||41||
O Nanak, by Him, you shall be saved. ||41||​
 
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Satnaam

Conquer your mind
First read Bhagat Dhannas Aarti. You can't base Gurmat on one tuk or two tuks, it is important to read Gurbani in its entirity and this will broaden your perspective and knowledge. I am aware of all the shabads you quote, there are a few more with similar meanings.

I refer to Panna 695, Bani Bhagat Dhanna.
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the reminder to read Gurbani in its entirety.

Does this mean we have a contradiction within the Gurbani? Guru Arjan Sahib Ji recommends against asking for anything other than Naam, and Bhagat Dhanna is praying for a 'fine Turkesian horse' (i.e. a really nice car) and fine clothes. I feel that the bulk of Gurbani teaches that everything is impermanent, only Naam is with us to the end, and if you have the eternal Naam then you don't necessarily need a fast car and hip clothes, because you will be content with Naam.

So if the majority of Gurbani teaches not to bother with worldly things and to strive for Naam and contentment, that is the clear guidance.
 

Satnaam

Conquer your mind
That is the thing, there is no contradiction but Gurmat is not black and white, nor can one tuk be simply taken as THE rule leaving all other tuks aside. There is no such rule as 'abrogation' (unlike for the Quran). All pangtis need to be read, contemplated upon to grasp the meaning of Gurbani.

I feel that the bulk of Gurbani teaches that everything is impermanent, only Naam is with us to the end

Yes, but if we stretch that mindset we could as well retire to jungles and leave householder life? Because at the end spouse, children don't matter either? I know it is not the correct logic, but I am giving an example that if all this is impermanent why bother marrying, coping with your spouse, caring for them, raising children because at the end its impermanent and of no use?

if you have the eternal Naam then you don't necessarily need a fast car and hip clothes, because you will be content with Naam.

* Historically some of the Gurus had lavish lifestyles and I proved it with that sakhi of 6th Guru which conveys this beautifully and also

* Anyways to answer your query Bhagat Dhanna is not asking for luxury, luxury in those time would be elephants, gold, silver, money, power and what not, he is asking for basic necessities such as fine clothes (he doesn't say expensive) & food.

But all this was just to you saying that Bani disallows us from asking anything but Naam.

Conclusion: Asking for more when you already have is discouraged, but it is okay to supplicate for basic necessities and you are allowed to work hard and achieve big things in life. Heck Sikhs are as prosperous as Jews in the UK (in some aspects such as house ownership etc) and the most prosperous community in India. Kirat Kamayi.
 
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Treks

Well-Known Member
I agree with you that no one tuk can be taken as the rule, leaving all other tuks aside. This leads me to think that since the majority of Gurbani encourages us to pray for Naam, that there is something curious about Bhagat Dhanna's shabad that needs to be considered in the context of the rest of the Gurbani.

Gurbani itself reiterates again and again that your spouse and children won't go with you in the end. It encourages us not to fixate on them. The impression I get from Gurbani is to work hard, to maintain detachment, to be rational, and to accept death. It is not that spouse and children don't matter; we should treasure them, obviously. But they are not the be-all and end-all. We need to become Naam-dependent and not co-dependent on impermanent things in this life, and guard against getting wrapped up in complexities that will fade away.

This has nothing to do with prayer, or praying for things.

Yes, some of the Gurus had lavish lifestyles. They don't tell us not to. They don't tell us to pray for it. They tell us to work hard and be content.

'Fine clothes' usually means expensive, lovely, luxurious. Perhaps we should study the Gurmukhi and understand the original word as it may provide clarity.

We may need to agree to disagree with regards to prayer for physical needs/benefits from a Gurbani perspective. I think this shabad from panna 10 say a lot, but happy to continue comparing and discussing:

ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ
Rāg gūjrī mėhlā 5.
Raag Goojaree, Fifth Mehl:

ਕਾਹੇ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਉਦਮੁ ਜਾ ਆਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਿਆ
Kāhe re man cẖiṯvahi uḏam jā āhar har jī▫o pari▫ā.
Why, O mind, do you plot and plan, when the Dear Lord Himself provides for your care?

ਸੈਲ ਪਥਰ ਮਹਿ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥੧॥
Sail pathar mėh janṯ upā▫e ṯā kā rijak āgai kar ḏẖari▫ā. ||1||
From rocks and stones He created living beings; He places their nourishment before them. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਜੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸੁ ਤਰਿਆ
Mere māḏẖa▫o jī saṯsangaṯ mile so ṯari▫ā.
O my Dear Lord of souls, one who joins the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, is saved.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੂਕੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਹਰਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Gur parsāḏ param paḏ pā▫i▫ā sūke kāsat hari▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
By Guru's Grace, the supreme status is obtained, and the dry wood blossoms forth again in lush greenery. ||1||Pause||

ਜਨਨਿ ਪਿਤਾ ਲੋਕ ਸੁਤ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਕੋਇ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਧਰਿਆ
Janan piṯā lok suṯ baniṯā ko▫e na kis kī ḏẖari▫ā.
Mothers, fathers, friends, children and spouses-no one is the support of anyone else.

ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸੰਬਾਹੇ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਮਨ ਭਉ ਕਰਿਆ ॥੨॥
Sir sir rijak sambāhe ṯẖākur kāhe man bẖa▫o kari▫ā. ||2||
For each and every person, our Lord and Master provides sustenance. Why are you so afraid, O mind? ||2||


ਊਡੇ ਊਡਿ ਆਵੈ ਸੈ ਕੋਸਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਾਛੈ ਬਚਰੇ ਛਰਿਆ
Ūde ūd āvai sai kosā ṯis pācẖẖai bacẖre cẖẖari▫ā.
The flamingoes fly hundreds of miles, leaving their young ones behind.

ਤਿਨ ਕਵਣੁ ਖਲਾਵੈ ਕਵਣੁ ਚੁਗਾਵੈ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਕਰਿਆ ॥੩॥
Ŧin kavaṇ kẖalāvai kavaṇ cẖugāvai man mėh simran kari▫ā. ||3||
Who feeds them, and who teaches them to feed themselves? Have you ever thought of this in your mind? ||3||

ਸਭਿ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਦਸ ਅਸਟ ਸਿਧਾਨ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਰ ਤਲ ਧਰਿਆ
Sabẖ niḏẖān ḏas asat sidẖān ṯẖākur kar ṯal ḏẖari▫ā.
All the nine treasures, and the eighteen supernatural powers are held by our Lord and Master in the Palm of His Hand.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਸਦ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਪਾਰਾਵਰਿਆ ॥੪॥੫॥
Jan Nānak bal bal saḏ bal jā▫ī▫ai ṯerā anṯ na parāvari▫ā. ||4||5||
Servant Nanak is devoted, dedicated, forever a sacrifice to You, Lord. Your Expanse has no limit, no boundary. ||4||5||​
 

Satnaam

Conquer your mind
Well do you agree that Bhagat Dhanna, if the translation is correct, is asking for basic things and not luxury?
Food, clothes, transport and a spouse. He did not wish for elephants, gold, silver or kingdoms.

The word mentioned with clothes is 'neeka' the translation ranges from 'good', 'fine' to 'beautiful' (according to Mahan Kosh and another dictionnary). If we go with 'good clothes' logic, it doesn't necessarily mean expensive, luxurious or whatever.

There are alot of people like you (especially the missionaries) who contest the meanings of the Bhagat Dhanna shabad. While some say the shabad is written from the perspective of general people who ask for worldly things, that seems a very implausible explanation.

I still feel there is a context to every shabad and ardas for worldy things when you have everything already is frowned upon but not when you need it. And mind you, sometimes one may work very hard but still not achieve things, won't a prayer then be good?

You were the one saying Gurbani doesn't disallow the use of alcohol even when I gave you shabads, so it was a bit strange to see you being in favor of the more extreme pov where it is forbidden to ask for anything but naam.

Here is just a small example of how context matters:

ਖਾਤ ਪੀਵਤ ਹਸਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਅਉਧ ਬਿਤੀ ਅਸਾਰ ॥
Eating, drinking, laughing and sleeping, life passes uselessly.

And at another place:

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥੨॥
While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||
 
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