Looking for a Sanskrit word

[Satyamavejayanti]

I was wondering if anyone can help me to find a Sanskrit word that has been translated in Vatsyanas Kama Sutra, Im looking for the actual Sanskrit word for "eunuch".

I am reading a translation and trying to understand the Kama Sutras and the openness of the works.

I know a lot of people tend to consider the kama sutra as not "Hindu", they are as much as "Hindu", as the Vedas to me. I would say it is quite "Dharmic" in nature.

So far what strikes me is the actual modernity of some of the ideas portrayed, and also the fact that Kama is advised to be practiced coupled with Dharma and Artha, and Kama without Dharmah is not advised.

Anyways, please help.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Here a quote from the Sutra, to put it into context.

THERE are two kinds of eunuchs, those that are disguised as males, and those that are disguised as females. Eunuchs disguised as females imitate their dress, speech, gestures, tenderness, timidity, simplicity, softness and bashfulness. The acts that are done on the jaghana or middle parts of women, are done in the mouths of these eunuchs, and this is called Auparishtaka. 1 These eunuchs derive their imaginable pleasure, and their livelihood from this kind of congress, and they lead the life of courtesans. So much concerning eunuchs disguised as females.
Eunuchs disguised as males keep their desires secret, and when they wish to do anything they lead the life of shampooers. Under the pretence of shampooing, a eunuch of this kind embraces and draws towards himself the thighs of the man whom he is shampooing, and after this he touches the joints of his thighs and his jaghana, or central portions of his body. Then, if he finds the lingam of the man erect, he presses it with his hands and chaffs him for getting into that state. If after this, and after knowing his intention, the man does not tell the eunuch to proceed, then the latter does it of his own accord and begins the congress. If however he is ordered by the man to do it, then he disputes with him, and only consents at last with difficulty.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Before any passer by starts to demean the Kama Sutras, here is a quote i liked.

'A girl who is much sought after should marry the man that she likes, and whom she thinks would be obedient to her, and capable of giving her pleasure. But when from the desire of wealth a girl is married by her parents to a rich man without taking into consideration the character or looks of the bridegroom, or when given to a man who has several wives, she never becomes attached to the man, even though he be endowed with good qualities, obedient to her will, active, strong, and healthy, and anxious to please her in every way. 1 A husband who is obedient but yet master of himself, though he be poor and not good looking, is better than one who is common to many women, even though he be handsome and attractive. The wives of rich men, where there are many wives, are not generally attached to their husbands, and are not confidential with them, and even though they possess all the external enjoyments of life, still have recourse to other men. A man who is of a low mind, who has fallen from his social position, and who is much given to travelling, does not deserve to be married; neither does one who has many wives and children, or one who is devoted to sport and gambling, and who comes to his wife only when he likes. Of all the lovers of a girl he only is her true husband who possesses the qualities that are liked by her, and such a husband only enjoys real superiority over her, because he is the husband of love.'

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

What the hell, im reading it now, might as well some more quotes.. enjoy.

'The extent of the love of women is not known, even to those who are the objects of their affection, on account of its subtlety, and on account of the avarice, and natural intelligence of womankind.'

'Women are hardly ever known in their true light, though they may love men, or become indifferent towards them, may give them delight, or abandon them, or may extract from them all the wealth that they may possess.

'When a man is excessively attached to a woman, he is afraid of her coming into contact with other men; he does not then regard or notice her faults and he gives her much wealth through fear of her leaving him.'

 

[Aupmanyav]

क्लिब् klib f. accomplishment
क्लिबते { क्लीब् } klibate { klIb } verb be timorous or modest or unassuming
क्लिबते { क्लीब् } klibate { klIb } verb be impotent
क्लिबते { क्लीब् } klibate { klIb } verb behave like a eunuch
क्लीबयते { क्लीब् } klIbayate { klIb } verb be unmanly or timorous
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=kleeb&trans=Translate&direction=AU


Eunuch, s. छिन्नमुष्कः, हृतपुंस्त्वः. Chinnamushkah, hrtpumstva (without manliness).
2 वर्षवरः, स्थापत्यः, कंचुकिन् m., सौविदः, साविदल्लः.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/aequery/index.html

8 klIb cl. 1. A1. %{klibate} , to be impotent , behave like a eunuch Pa1n2. 3-1 , 11 Pat. ; to be timorous or modest or unassuming Dha1tup. x , 18: cl. 10. A1. %{klIbayate} , to be unmanly or timorous MBh. vi , 4334 (v.l.) Katha1s. civ , 126.
9 klIba mf(%{A4})n. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , 11 Va1rtt. 3) impotent , emasculated , a eunuch AV. VS. TS. S3Br. Mn. &c. ; unmanly , timorous , weak , idle , a coward MBh. Mr2icch. BhP. &c. ; having no water (as a cloud) Das3. ; (in lexicography) of the neuter gender ; (%{am}) n. (in lexicography) the neuter gender.
10 klIbarUpa (%{-ba4-}) mfn. similar to a eunuch AV. viii , 6 , 7.
11 klIbAya Nom. A1. %{-yate} , to behave like a eunuch Vop. xxi , 7.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/tamil/index.html

 

[Aupmanyav]

Women are hardly ever known in their true light, though they may love men, or become indifferent towards them, may give them delight, or abandon them, or may extract from them all the wealth that they may possess.

Are men ever known in their true light? We all have our little secrets, men or women.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Aupmanyav

Dhanyavad mate.

Eunuch, s. छिन्नमुष्कः, हृतपुंस्त्वः. Chinnamushkah, hrtpumstva (without manliness).
2 वर्षवरः, स्थापत्यः, कंचुकिन् m., सौविदः, साविदल्लः.
AE Query

8 klIb cl. 1. A1. %{klibate} , to be impotent , behave like a eunuch Pa1n2. 3-1 , 11 Pat. ; to be timorous or modest or unassuming Dha1tup. x , 18: cl. 10. A1. %{klIbayate} , to be unmanly or timorous MBh. vi , 4334 (v.l.) Katha1s. civ , 126.
9 klIba mf(%{A4})n. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , 11 Va1rtt. 3) impotent , emasculated , a eunuch AV. VS. TS. S3Br. Mn. &c. ; unmanly , timorous , weak , idle , a coward MBh. Mr2icch. BhP. &c. ; having no water (as a cloud) Das3. ; (in lexicography) of the neuter gender ; (%{am}) n. (in lexicography) the neuter gender.
10 klIbarUpa (%{-ba4-}) mfn. similar to a eunuch AV. viii , 6 , 7.
11 klIbAya Nom. A1. %{-yate} , to behave like a eunuch Vop. xxi , 7.
Sanskrit and Tamil Dictionaries

Ok so taking it in context it could more likely mean "Homosexual", in modern words, can i assume this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It talks about unmanliness, cowardliness but not about homosexuality. No where, that is a surprise.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

It talks about unmanliness, cowardlyness but not about homosexuality. No where, that is a surprise.

I think it does, not so much as homosexuality as we know today, as reading further on there is this quote.

'The male servants of some men carry on the mouth congress with their masters. It is also practised by some citizens, who know each other well, among themselves. Some women of the harem, when they are amorous, do the acts of the mouth on the yonis of one another, and some men do the same thing with women. The way of doing this (i.e. of kissing the yoni) should be known from kissing the mouth. When a man and woman lie down in an inverted order, i.e. with the head of the one towards the feet of the other and carry on this congress, it is called the "congress of a crow".'

Plus i am unsure of what is meant when replacing the word "Eunuch", with the Sanskrit क्लिबते or klibate and its intended meaning. then the beginning of the chapter says there are "klibate disguised as male and female",.

Plus the following details of what the Klibate desguised as males do, i think there is some acknowledgement of the homosexual ideals.

When, holding the man's lingam with his hand, and placing it between his lips, the eunuch moves about his mouth, it is called the 'nominal congress'.
When, covering the end of the lingam with his fingers collected together like the bud of a plant or flower, the eunuch presses the sides of it with his lips, using his teeth also, it is called 'biting the sides'.

Anyways, thanks for your help.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The male servants of some men carry on the mouth congress with their masters. It is also practised by some citizens, who know each other well, among themselves. Some women of the harem, when they are amorous, do the acts of the mouth on the yonis of one another, and some men do the same thing with women. The way of doing this (i.e. of kissing the yoni) should be known from kissing the mouth. When a man and woman lie down in an inverted order, i.e. with the head of the one towards the feet of the other and carry on this congress, it is called the "congress of a crow".

Seems, by the time of Vatsyayana, we had come to know of these things. "Vātsyāyana is the name of a Hindu philosopher in the Vedic tradition who is believed to have lived around 3rd century CE." Whom should we blame for it? Yavanas, Shakas, Kushanas, Parasus or Pakthas?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Seems, by the time of Vatsyayana, we had come to know of these things. "Vātsyāyana is the name of a Hindu philosopher in the Vedic tradition who is believed to have lived around 3rd century CE." Whom should we blame for it? Yavanas, Shakas, Kushanas, Parasus or Pakthas?

What do you mean by Blame???

What i find more amazing is the "Klibate" are treated as being a somewhat normal tendency/kama and not looked down upon by the writers of the Kama Sutra, but more discussion is on the actual "Mouth congress", and why it is not appropriate or why it is appropriate in some situations.

Nowhere are the "klibate", seen as Adharmic, but just a description of what are the Kama of a Klibate disguised as a male and female is discussed.

The idea that sex with the same gender being wrong does not creep into the kama Sutra, many places vatsyana says that it is up to the time and place and the consent of the individual.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

More quotes, this one is Long, as the context is that women should learn these sciences along with the Kama Sutra.
Ill put these on 2 post for readability.

A female, therefore, should learn the Kama Shastra, or at least a part of it, by studying its practice from some confidential friend. She should study alone in private the sixty-four practices that form a part of the Kama Shastra. Her teacher should be one of the following persons: the daughter of a nurse brought up with her and already married, 2 or a female friend who can be trusted in everything, or the sister of her mother (i.e. her aunt), or an old female servant, or a female beggar who may have formerly lived in the family, or her own sister who can always be trusted.
The following are the arts to be studied, together with the Kama Sutra:
• Singing
• Playing on musical instruments
• Dancing
• Union of dancing, singing, and playing instrumental music
• Writing and drawing
• Tattooing
• Arraying and adorning an idol with rice and flowers
• Spreading and arranging beds or couches of flowers, or flowers upon the ground
• Colouring the teeth, garments, hair, nails and bodies, i.e. staining, dyeing, colouring and painting the same
• Fixing stained glass into a floor
• The art of making beds, and spreading out carpets and cushions for reclining
• Playing on musical glasses filled with water
• Storing and accumulating water in aqueducts, cisterns and reservoirs
• Picture making, trimming and decorating
• Stringing of rosaries, necklaces, garlands and wreaths
• Binding of turbans and chaplets, and making crests and top-knots of flowers
• Scenic representations, stage playing Art of making ear ornaments Art of preparing perfumes and odours
• Proper disposition of jewels and decorations, and adornment in dress
• Magic or sorcery
• Quickness of hand or manual skill
• Culinary art, i.e. cooking and cookery
• Making lemonades, sherbets, acidulated drinks, and spirituous extracts with proper flavour and colour
• Tailor's work and sewing
• Making parrots, flowers, tufts, tassels, bunches, bosses, knobs, etc., out of yarn or thread
• Solution of riddles, enigmas, covert speeches, verbal puzzles and enigmatical questions
• A game, which consisted in repeating verses, and as one person finished, another person had to commence at once, repeating another verse, beginning with the same letter with which the last speaker's verse ended, whoever failed to repeat was considered to have lost, and to be subject to pay a forfeit or stake of some kind
• The art of mimicry or imitation
• Reading, including chanting and intoning
• Study of sentences difficult to pronounce. It is played as a game chiefly by women, and children and consists of a difficult sentence being given, and when repeated quickly, the words are often transposed or badly pronounced
• Practice with sword, single stick, quarter staff and bow and arrow
• Drawing inferences, reasoning or inferring
• Carpentry, or the work of a carpenter
• Architecture, or the art of building
• Knowledge about gold and silver coins, and jewels and gems
• Chemistry and mineralogy
• Colouring jewels, gems and beads
• Knowledge of mines and quarries

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

cont..

• Gardening; knowledge of treating the diseases of trees and plants, of nourishing them, and determining their ages
• Art of **** fighting, quail fighting and ram fighting
• Art of teaching parrots and starlings to speak
• Art of applying perfumed ointments to the body, and of dressing the hair with unguents and perfumes and braiding it
• The art of understanding writing in cypher, and the writing of words in a peculiar way
• The art of speaking by changing the forms of words. It is of various kinds. Some speak by changing the beginning and end of words, others by adding unnecessary letters between every syllable of a word, and so on
• Knowledge of language and of the vernacular dialects
• Art of making flower carriages
• Art of framing mystical diagrams, of addressing spells and charms, and binding armlets
• Mental exercises, such as completing stanzas or verses on receiving a part of them; or supplying one, two or three lines when the remaining lines are given indiscriminately from different verses, so as to make the whole an entire verse with regard to its meaning; or arranging the words of a verse written irregularly by separating the vowels from the consonants, or leaving them out altogether; or putting into verse or prose sentences represented by signs or symbols. There are many other such exercises.
• Composing poems
• Knowledge of dictionaries and vocabularies
• Knowledge of ways of changing and disguising the appearance of persons
• Knowledge of the art of changing the appearance of things, such as making cotton to appear as silk, coarse and common things to appear as fine and good
• Various ways of gambling
• Art of obtaining possession of the property of others by means of muntras or incantations
• Skill in youthful sports
• Knowledge of the rules of society, and of how to pay respect and compliments to others
• Knowledge of the art of war, of arms, of armies, etc.
• Knowledge of gymnastics
• Art of knowing the character of a man from his features
• Knowledge of scanning or constructing verses
• Arithmetical recreations
• Making artificial flowers
• Making figures and images in clay
A public woman, endowed with a good disposition, beauty and other winning qualities, and also versed in the above arts, obtains the name of a Ganika, or public woman of high quality, and receives a seat of honour in an assemblage of men. She is, moreover, always respected by the king, and praised by learned men, and her favour being sought for by all, she becomes an object of universal regard. The daughter of a king too as well as the daughter of a minister, being learned in the above arts, can make their husbands favourable to them, even though these may have thousands of other wives besides themselves. And in the same manner, if a wife becomes separated from her husband, and falls into distress, she can support herself easily, even in a foreign country, by means of her knowledge of these arts. Even the bare knowledge of them gives attractiveness to a woman, though the practice of them may be only possible or otherwise according to the circumstances of each case. A man who is versed in these arts, who is loquacious and acquainted with the arts of gallantry, gains very soon the hearts of women, even though he is only acquainted with them for a short time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I were looking for all this, I would have remained a bachelor all my life.
Too much expectations. I followed my grandmother's advice (my father's maternal aunt) when she said that a certain girl will be good for me when I was 14. I married her after 10 years and have no (real) complaints.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

If I were looking for all this, I would have remained a bachelor all my life.
Too much expectations. I followed my grandmother's advice (my father's maternal aunt) when she said that a certain girl will be good for me when I was 14. I married her after 10 years and have no (real) complaints.

It is a long list of recommendations for women and men, but i guess the caliber of women and men were expected to be higher in those days, much more then these days. I don't see it as being impossible to learn or even master all these sciences, it could have taken a long time, but the end result was a more intelligent and civilized society.

Seems being of the Vaishya Varna Ashram Dharmah was not just being merchants or other simplified meanings that have been given when translating the word, the requirements and obligations at least at the time of the Kama Sutras was quite demanding.

 

[Vinayaka]

Gives hints to our glorious past, that's for sure.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Gives hints to our glorious past, that's for sure.

Yes, it to me portrays a past not influenced/poisoned by Abrahamic thought, and there were many other civilizations with similar liberalness and open mindedness (Modern) as the Dharma ones.

Today "Kama", or desire/pleasure/contentment whatever you want to call it, is too much attached to just the physical transitory sensory enjoyment, and so the Kama Sutra may bee seen by some as a book about Lust and sex, rather then what i think it actually is, which is the art of love making and being content yet not attached to the physical, and practiced in conformance with the principals integral to Dharma such as Ahinsa.

Why do i think so, it is because in the vary beginnings of the Sutras there is this reason given for writing about Kama, when the objection is posed that kama is practiced even by animals and therefore does not require to be studied.

Some learned men say that as Dharma is connected with things not belonging to this world, it is appropriately treated of in a book; and so also is Artha, because it is practised only by the application of proper means, and a knowledge of those means can only be obtained by study and from books. But Kama being a thing which is practised even by the brute creation, and which is to be found everywhere, does not want any work on the subject.

This is not so. Sexual intercourse being a thing dependent on man and woman requires the application of proper means by them, and those means are to be learnt from the Kama Shastra. The non-application of proper means, which we see in the brute creation, is caused by their being unrestrained, and by the females among them only being fit for sexual intercourse at certain seasons and no more, and by their intercourse not being preceded by thought of any kind.

And this quote where a objection is raised about Dharmic Practices, and Vatsyana supports Dharmah.

The Lokayatikas say: Dharmic ordinances should not be observed, for they bear a future fruit, and at the same time it is also doubtful whether they will bear any fruit at all. What foolish person will give away that which is in his own hands into the hands of another? Moreover, it is better to have a pigeon today than a peacock tomorrow; and a copper coin which we have the certainty of obtaining, is better than a gold coin, the possession of which is doubtful.

It is not so. 1st. Shruti, which ordains the practice of Dharma, does not admit of a doubt.

2nd. Sacrifices such as those made for the destruction of enemies, or for the fall of rain, are seen to bear fruit.

3rd. The sun, moon, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies appear to work intentionally for the good of the world.

4th. the existence of this world is effected by the observance of the rules respecting the four classes of men and their four stages of life.

5th. We see that seed is thrown into the ground with the hope of future crops.

Vatsyayana is therefore of opinion that the ordinances of religion must be obeyed.

And this final quote, puts a seal on the intent of the Kama Sutra.

'This work is not intended to be used merely as an instrument for satisfying our desires. A person, acquainted with the true principles of this science, and who preserves his Dharma, Artha, and Kama, and has regard for the practices of the people, is sure to obtain the mastery over his senses.'

'In short, an intelligent and prudent person, attending to Dharma and Artha, and attending to Kama also, without becoming the slave of his passions, obtains success in everything that he may undertake.'

Dhanyavad.

OHM TATH SATH