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Laika vs. Eddi - Religion and Socialism

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
This is in One-on-One debates.
Only @Laika and @Eddi may post here.
If you post in here and you are not Laika or Eddi I will report you to the Moderators! :eek:

However, observers may react using the various ratings that are available, like a roaring crowd as the two gladiators fight to the death...

This is the subject of the debate:

Can one be a true socialist and also religious?

Eddi will argue "Yes" and Laika will argue "No"

I shall make an opening post shortly after I have finished typing this OP...​
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Question: Can one be a true socialist and also religious?

Yes, absolutely!

Indeed to me Socialism and my religion (Christianity) are pretty much the same thing

For the time being I am going to limit myself to Christianity when discussing religions, but I may at some point bring some other faith into the debate, we’ll see…

I see my personal belief system as being simultaneously Christian and Socialist and consider myself to be both a Socialist and a Christian

Allow me to set up some definitions to inform our debate. These are from the dictionary on my computer. Socialism is:

Socialism
noun [ mass noun ]
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
• policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
• (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

By “True Socialist” I mean any person whose activities advance the Socialist cause and/or who wants to see the Socialist cause advanced.

And Christianity is:

Christianity
noun [ mass noun ]
the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus Christ, or its beliefs and practices.

I think that one can practice Christianity in such a way as it becomes a form of Socialism!

To me, the symbol of socialism is the crucifix, rather than the dreaded hammer and sickle :D

Christianity and Socialism each contain a utopian element:

The secular socialist positively values the ideal of Communism: which they seek to work towards and against which they judge present conditions

But the Christian socialist looks forward to Heaven

The two states are I would say extremely similar: Total equality, a lack of scarcity, a freedom in which to be happy and to flourish as an individual whilst enjoying peaceful fellowship with other humans

The main difference is that Heaven is real yet Communism is but a dream and always will be as no such society could exist without the direct intervention of God

In class struggle, Christians can be on the side of the workers. Indeed high-ranking clerics can be on the side of the workers:

Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara (1909-1999) famously said: "When I feed the poor they call me a saint. When I ask why so many people are poor they call me a communist.”

The Archbishop acted like a socialist should (concern for the poor’s standard of living) and thought as a socialist should (seeing poverty as not a God-mandated state but instead as an undesirable symptom of capitalism) therefore we must consider him a socialist. A true socialist, even!

If he behaves like a socialist and thinks like a socialist then he is a TRUE socialist!

And I see no reason do doubt that the is religious, I would say that it is impossible for a Catholic Archbishop to be not religious.

But Socialism is not just about fighting social ills and seeking to improve conditions, it is also a commitment to class struggle to empower and benefit the working class at the expense of the Capitalist class, and I believe that the “liberation theology” of Câmara et. al. does indeed amount to a commitment to class struggle: on the side of the workers.

In his famous quote he said that the bourgeoisie were happy with him when he fed the victims of capitalism (to reduce their revolutionary tendencies and make the system seem more compassionate and fair) but that they resented any criticism of the capitalist system, and any effort to challenge or even reform it.

I believe that the aim of the Christian Socialist is not to bring about into existence a state of Communism. I believe that his or her aim should be to make this world a much better and fairer place in which to live and to empower all of the marginalised and oppressed, to make the world as good a possible a place whilst we look forward to life in the next world, the world that exists beyond the grave, knowing that we have fulfilled the imperative to feed and care for the poor and disadvantaged.

In Luke 6:20 Jesus said “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God” - I think this is Jesus telling us that poverty is merely a transient state and that once one enters Heaven everything will be OK.

However, I believe Christians have a moral imperative to eradicate poverty and make the Earth as Peaceful, Free, and Developed as possible. And in my mind, implementing World Socialism would achieve this (indeed is the only thing that can achieve this) and we can then enjoy the best of both worlds, knowing we have done the right thing here in our lifetimes.

At the end of the day, it is a matter of right and wrong.

I believe that the meaning this of life is to make this world as good a place as possible in which to live, as doing so is a way to become good people, through choosing the morally right action.

I believe this life is an environment in which we can show God how much we care for our fellow humans - something which we can only do by advocating and advancing Socialism. And were one to commit to doing this then one would be a true Socialist!
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Question: Can one be a true socialist and also religious?

Yes, absolutely!

Indeed to me Socialism and my religion (Christianity) are pretty much the same thing

I. Religion Versus Socialism?​

The Marxist view of religion has been that belief in God and in the supernatural is ultimately incomparable with Socialism where the "means of production, distribution and exchange" are "owned and regulated by the community as a whole."

It is true to say that the earliest forms of the socialist aspirations of ordinary people have been religious in nature and drawn direct inspiration from religious authority and scriptures. For nearly all of human history prior to the 19th and 20th centuries, religion and politics were united, with religious arguments either serving to defend or criticise political authority. Marxism believes that departing from this religious consciousness is essential to a free, socialist society.

There are a huge number of directions this debate could go in, so I'm going to keep it as broad as possible and let the chips fall where they may.

II. Atheism and Freedom​

The belief that politics and religion could be separate was never as certain or automatic as it is today, but was born out of philosophical and political debates. The English Civil War represented a conflict over legitimate political authority between King Charles I and Parliament. One group, the Levellers, articulated early arguments for the rule of the people. Among many of the movements that developed was the Diggers who argued for a form of Christian Socialism and common ownership. During the Restoration, Robert Filmer wrote "Patriarcha" as a defence of the Divine Right of Kings. John Locke responded with his Two Treatise on Government that developed the idea of a "social contract" where government was based on consent. These debates all contain a basic common theme of whether the government and society are organised by God or by the will, intent and design of human beings.

It's worth keeping this in mind as the question of whether God's existence is compatible with Mankind's ability to govern itself is likely to be a theme in this debate. The struggle for Atheism is the struggle for freedom since if God exists and created the universe, it comes loaded with the implication that God can create society and dictate our economic, political, legal and moral systems. If however, Man created God and God doesn't exist, then man is the architect of his social organisation. Man is thus capable of freedom, of self-government and of designing and building a society that satisfies his needs: socialism.

Atheism wasn't a quirk in Marxism, but based on the belief that man created god in his own image, and that god has consistently served as a symbolic defender of every exploiting class and exploiting society. If you are going to overthrow the ruling class, you are going to have to go to war with their version of God that defends and justifies oppression and exploitation. The big question is whether all conceptions of god are incompatible with man's freedom and self-government or if a socialist society could create a religion of it's own. Marxism has thus overwhelmingly taken the view that a socialist society cannot be religious or accept god. That being said, taking a more agnostic view to religious belief and wanting to find ways for socialism to replace religion, or "god-building", has been a persistent, if heretical, theme in communism's history.

III The Origins of Socialism as a Secular Ideology​

The birth of Socialism as a secular political ideology can be traced back to the French Revolution where Francois-Noel Babeuf led the "Conspiracy of Equals" as a failed coup attempt against the Directory of the French Republic by the most radical egalitarian branch of the Jacobins. This was after the development of deistic and secular ideas around the "Cult of Reason" and the "Cult of the Supreme Being" in the French Revolution as ruptures with traditional Christian belief.

There is some debate amongst historians over whether the Marquis De Sade, known for his sexual perversions and giving his name to "sadism", was a proto-socialist with atheistic and anti-religious beliefs. De Sade's observations about the meaning of freedom, the hostility towards organised religion, the nature of aristocratic power and it's propensity for cruelty as a basis for justifying it's radical redistribution, have an uneasy place in socialism's history especially given the violence of the twentieth century. Certain Atheistic ideas were also expressed by the "French Materialists" of the 18th century and were of interest to Karl Marx. Socialist ideas were then later developed by a number of thinkers including Charles Fourier, Saint-Simon and Robert Owen.

Out of a series of disputes over the philosophy of Fredrich Hegel in Germany, came a series of anti-religious authors such as David Straus (who denied the divinity of Jesus in The Life of Jesus in 1835), Bruno Bauer (who wrote early forms of biblical criticism) and Ludwig Feuerbach who wrote The Essence of Christianity in 1841, where he advocated an atheist and materialist understanding of Christian belief and, by implication, of religious belief more generally.

IV Marxism's "Scientific Socialism"​

Amidst this climate of anti-religious criticism were Karl Marx and Fredrich Engels, whose intellectual partnership was responsible for founding Marxism. They developed a materialist philosophy of history which denied the existence of god and the supernatural and insisted that the development of history would eventually lead to Socialism through class struggle.

With the publication of Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" in 1859, Religion came under a sustained assault. In treating man as part of nature and human history as an extension of natural history, Marxism was part of the wider acceptance of Social Darwinism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Marxism's decline in recent decades, reflects an increasingly pessimistic assessment of science's ability to understand human beings and society as a response to the moral catastrophe of twentieth century history. Both Nazism and Stalinism serve as warnings to what happen when we replace religion's roles in politics, with science (or "pseudo-science" depending on your view).

The dangers of using evolutionary theory to understand social conflict and the struggle for power are much clearer to us now than they were to Marx, yet doing so is critical to Marxism's ability to sustain a consistent atheist and materialist understanding of the world and our place in it. There is pretty much no way of avoiding the conclusion that by equating freedom with power, and that as there was no god that could over-rule our actions or veto our decisions should we abuse power, Marxism contributed to a greater scope of political power and range moral problems in a "totalitarian" state not previously known in human history that haunts us to this day.

V. After the Fall: Was Atheism Communism's Original Sin?​

The debate over the relationship between Religion and Socialism is essentially retracing this journey from beginnings of Socialism in French Revolution in the 1790s to the development of Marxism in the 1830s and 1840s. These strands of Socialism, Atheism, Materialism and the criticism of religion came to be combined in Marxism which went on to become the most consequential atheist and anti-religious movement for the 20th century. Religious forms of socialism never completely disappeared (e.g. the Liberation Theology from Latin America in the 1960s) but it wasn't able to compete and many religious people either openly opposed Communism or were unwilling to associate with it.

The main contention of Marxism is that being atheist is a better (or "truer") basis for Socialism because religion is ultimately a conservative force even when it takes a more benign guise in "Christian Socialism". Through perpetuating ignorance, falsehood and superstition, religion keeps man a prisoner within exploiting societies like capitalism and has so often served to defend the chains man has tried to escape from in order to be free. In this respect, Christian Socialism might be considered self-defeating.

The problem of course is that the twentieth century gave us such a dark vision of what human beings might do with this power and the freedom it entails, we've become very used to wanting to stick with capitalism. The risk of building a new world without god is the only person who can stop us from committing evil is ourselves. We are just not brave enough to attempt it again, especially because we may not survive what we find out about ourselves and our species.

As Fredrich Nietzsche eloquently put it of Atheism, so it could well be said of Marxism-Leninism and the carnage it unleashed upon the world:

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"
 
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Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Hello, @Laika :D

There are some things you have said that I would like to interrogate:

I. Religion Versus Socialism?
So, you say Religion and Socialism are different things?

Can I ask: Do you mean "different" as in mutually exclusive? Or just different as in separate phenomena that may co-exist?

It is true to say that the earliest forms of the socialist aspirations of ordinary people have been religious in nature and drawn direct inspiration from religious authority and scriptures.
So, since those days what has changed so that socialism is no longer religious? Has something happened to Socialism? Are you alluding to Marx/Engels? And their various works?

If that is the case, wouldn't that mean that Marxism and Socialism are different things - All Marxism is Socialism but not all Socialism is Marxism!

SandM.png

It must be possible to be a socialist without being a Marxist, if there were socialists who pre-dated Marx? As you have freely acknowledged in your previous post

Question: Or does a Socialist have to be a Marxist in order to be an authentic, "true" socialist?

I see Marxism as being strongly anti-human and collectivist whereas less "scientific" and "revolutionary" forms of Socialism are more human-affirming - as are most religions, I would say :D

The belief that politics and religion could be separate was never as certain or automatic as it is today
I think that it is true that today religion and government and the state are now mostly separate and that most people want this, in most advanced nations. Even here in the UK where we have an established church I would say there is a distinction between the secular fabric and the spiritual fabric of the state.

However, I should imagine that a great many politicians/public figures are deeply spiritual and that their spirituality influences their public life and their politics.

And I believe that many such religiously motivated politicians would strongly believe in a separation between church and state

I don't see the separation of church and state to be a particularly socialist thing either. The American constitution is hardly socialist.

One can be religious but also secular!

It's worth keeping this in mind as the question of whether God's existence is compatible with Mankind's ability to govern itself is likely to be a theme in this debate. The struggle for Atheism is the struggle for freedom since if God exists and created the universe, it comes loaded with the implication that God can create society and dictate our economic, political, legal and moral systems. If however, Man created God and God doesn't exist, then man is the architect of his social organisation. Man is thus capable of freedom, of self-government and of designing and building a society that satisfies his needs: socialism.
I think that man can be "the architect of his social organisation" whilst being a Socialist Christian and that most Socialist Christians would favour a socialist system rather than a theocracy. I am a Christian socialist and I don't want theocracy, I want a politically organised secular socialist system!

I present myself as Exhibit A!

Socialism and Theocracy are completely different, even if people involved in Socialism hold private religious views and let these influence how they govern

And I think Christian-inspired Socialism is more a matter of values and concerns being addressed rather than dogma being imposed

We must not forget that just like in politics religion has its left wing and its right wing!

The debate over the relationship between Religion and Socialism is essentially retracing this journey from beginnings of Socialism in French Revolution in the 1790s to the development of Marxism in the 1830s and 1840s.
I think it has to be said that just because you disapprove of (how you see) the role religion plays in society doesn't mean that the religious claims are untrue.

The main contention of Marxism is that being atheist is a better (or "truer") basis for Socialism because religion is ultimately a conservative force even when it takes a more benign guise in "Christian Socialism".
I see Jesus Christ as being a revolutionary figure rather than a conservative one!

Christian Socialism might be considered self-defeating.
Pleas unpack this for me :)

Through perpetuating ignorance, falsehood and superstition, religion keeps man a prisoner within exploiting societies like capitalism and has so often served to defend the chains man has tried to escape from in order to be free. I
The same could be said about Soviet Russia and their civic religion of Leninism

Yes, I would say that in the USSR Leninism and (later) Stalinism both functioned as religions function in Capitalist societies - under the guise of "Dialectic Materialism"

If you want me expand on this then let me know :)

So, in the past, organised Marxist Socialism in socialist systems has been functionally similar to religion in Capitalist systems - or even in Feudalist systems perhaps???

In short: Marxism is a religion

The logic can speak for itself:

Premise 1: Marxism is a religion (true)
Premise 2: Marxism is a kind of Socialism (true)
Conclusion: One can be a Socialist and also an adherent of a religion (a valid deduction and a sound argument)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The same could be said about Soviet Russia and their civic religion of Leninism. Yes, I would say that in the USSR Leninism and (later) Stalinism both functioned as religions function in Capitalist societies - under the guise of "Dialectic Materialism".

... So, in the past, organised Marxist Socialism in socialist systems has been functionally similar to religion in Capitalist systems - or even in Feudalist systems perhaps??? In short: Marxism is a religion

Oh, you just had to go there didn't you? :D

This is such a big point of controversy, I'm going to side step this one and we can come back to it later. I'm certain it will come up.

But at it's most appallingly crude, Marxism claims to be a science and thus "true", whilst it insists religion is "false". Hence because Marxism is true, it cannot be a religion. The major problem is that, having made this claim, Marxists haven't been very good at detailing precisely why Marxism is a science and how they know it is true, which makes the foundations they've built it on very shaky.

So, you say Religion and Socialism are different things? Can I ask: Do you mean "different" as in mutually exclusive? Or just different as in separate phenomena that may co-exist?

Religion and Socialism overlap and have co-existed in the past and still do today. They are obviously differences in that Religion focuses on the spiritual and the supernatural, whilst Socialism is principally an economic system. But that doesn't mean religion and atheism can be treated equally in relation to Socialism.

So, since those days what has changed so that socialism is no longer religious? Has something happened to Socialism? Are you alluding to Marx/Engels? And their various works?

The claim that was made was that Marxism was a scientific worldview and not a religion. Thus they asserted that a "change" has taken place in developing Marxism that drew a line between it and the religious (and non-marxist) forms of socialism that went before it.

If that is the case, wouldn't that mean that Marxism and Socialism are different things - All Marxism is Socialism but not all Socialism is Marxism! It must be possible to be a socialist without being a Marxist, if there were socialists who pre-dated Marx? As you have freely acknowledged in your previous post.

Yes. You can be a socialist without being a Marxist and they are different things to a point.

Question: Or does a Socialist have to be a Marxist in order to be an authentic, "true" socialist?
I see Marxism as being strongly anti-human and collectivist whereas less "scientific" and "revolutionary" forms of Socialism are more human-affirming - as are most religions, I would say :D

I think Marxists would certainly argue you have to be a Marxist to be an "authentic" and "true" Socialist.

One can be religious but also secular!

Now, this is where I think Marxism is going to go totally off the rails and defy the conventional liberal wisdom as the evidence suggests Marxists-Leninists strongly disagreed. Their conception of secularism was an Atheist state where religion had no place in either politics or in public life. Though this wasn't originally apparent in Marx, Engels or even Lenin, by the time of Stalin the debate on whether the state had to be anti-religious or simply "neutral" was resolved in favour of the former by the 1930's.

...I should imagine that a great many politicians/public figures are deeply spiritual and that their spirituality influences their public life and their politics. And I believe that many such religiously motivated politicians would strongly believe in a separation between church and state.

Yes, this is true in Western countries. But in the Soviet Union the Communist Party was atheist and monopolised power. So (in theory) the state was monopolised by atheists and ever politician and public figure was meant to be an atheist. That is not a western or liberal understanding of secularism by any means, but it was the Soviet understanding of it.

I don't see the separation of church and state to be a particularly socialist thing either. The American constitution is hardly socialist.

This is sort of the problem and why the Soviets had their own "socialist" version of secularism. Based on the belief that religion was capitalist and served the interests of the ruling class, secularism in the United States meant giving the capitalist class the "religious freedom" to spread religious belief amongst the masses. The Soviets meanwhile were closer to view atheism as being in the interests of the working classes and hence "religious freedom" meant actively spreading atheism amongst the people and rooting out religious belief where possible.

I think it has to be said that just because you disapprove of (how you see) the role religion plays in society doesn't mean that the religious claims are untrue.

I agree and I think this a really important point to emphasise. I could easily disapprove of religion even if it is true and conversely, you could approve of religion even if it was false.

However, the Soviets believed that religion was untrue AND they disapproved of it's role in society. The relationship between the two probably exists, but I'm not 100% clear on it beyond arguing that religion is a form indoctrination in to accepting class rule.

I think that man can be "the architect of his social organisation" whilst being a Socialist Christian and that most Socialist Christians would favour a socialist system rather than a theocracy. I am a Christian socialist and I don't want theocracy, I want a politically organised secular socialist system!

Well, this is an interesting one. If man can create Socialism without God, why would you argue that you need religion (or a belief in God) in order to have Socialism? Isn't religion just an optional extra here and you have already conceded that Socialism is a humanistic doctrine that can exist without God?

Assuming you are not and you do believe God has a role, does that mean you believe in a non-interventionist God and your understanding of Christian Socialism is predicated on God not intervening to address the injustices of society or help the oppressed?

I will be interested to hear your response on that one as I actually don't know what you're going to say. :D
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
If man can create Socialism without God, why would you argue that you need religion (or a belief in God) in order to have Socialism?
Because God exists and wants socialism: Consider Heaven - that sounds a lot like a state of communism to me. I think that the Christian utopia is very similar to the Communist utopia. And that this shows us that ultimately they have similar values. If they both have basically the same idea of what paradise would be like!

There is an old West German joke from the Cold War:

Q: Why are Adam and Eve Russian?

A: Because they have no home, no vote, no property, and believe that they live in paradise!

Isn't religion just an optional extra here and you have already conceded that Socialism is a humanistic doctrine that can exist without God?
Not at all - religion can be the motivating factor behind wanting to implement a Socialist system. I want socialism for two reasons: Religious reasons (a moral imperative), and because I recognise that it is in my rational self-interest

So my socialism is not entirely based upon religious reasons, my own class consciousness is also a factor

There is more than one thing at work in me

Also, to me God is my Lord. And if you have someone as your Lord then you follow them and obey them. And I believe that God wants a socialist system to be implemented, here on Earth

And no human-being will ever be my Lord - God is the only being who can be anyone's Lord

does that mean you believe in a non-interventionist God and your understanding of Christian Socialism is predicated on God not intervening to address the injustices of society or help the oppressed?
I believe in a God who intervenes in human affairs by inspiring individual humans

(although I do believe that in the past he has intervened more directly)

Regarding addressing injustices and helping the oppressed: I don't believe he intervenes directly but that he may intervene in the lives of people to inspire them.

I believe that one can have a personal relationship with God and that an outcome of having such a relationship is an enlarged social conscience and a great concern for one's fellow humans

Basically, I believe I an interventionist God who works upon the world through human agency.

An example of this would be him sending Jesus. In Luke 4:18 Jesus quotes Isiah (making that text apply to himself) and says:

The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free

I'd say that the person of Jesus Christ is an uncommon and extraordinary instance of God directly intervening in human affairs

I believe that he inspires people to make Luke 4:18 happen - to improve the condition of the poor and liberate the oppressed

Indeed I believe that Luke 4:18 is a duty for all Christians

They are obviously differences in that Religion focuses on the spiritual and the supernatural, whilst Socialism is principally an economic system
I'd say that Religion does more than just that, I see it as a way in which social conduct is regulated - that it is all about how we live together in a society as different individuals with a shared common interest

I believe Socialism is also how we can best live together in a society as different individuals with a shared common interest
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Because God exists and wants socialism: Consider Heaven - that sounds a lot like a state of communism to me. I think that the Christian utopia is very similar to the Communist utopia. And that this shows us that ultimately they have similar values. If they both have basically the same idea of what paradise would be like!

There is an old West German joke from the Cold War:

Q: Why are Adam and Eve Russian?

A: Because they have no home, no vote, no property, and believe that they live in paradise!


Not at all - religion can be the motivating factor behind wanting to implement a Socialist system. I want socialism for two reasons: Religious reasons (a moral imperative), and because I recognise that it is in my rational self-interest

So my socialism is not entirely based upon religious reasons, my own class consciousness is also a factor

There is more than one thing at work in me

Also, to me God is my Lord. And if you have someone as your Lord then you follow them and obey them. And I believe that God wants a socialist system to be implemented, here on Earth

And no human-being will ever be my Lord - God is the only being who can be anyone's Lord


I believe in a God who intervenes in human affairs by inspiring individual humans

(although I do believe that in the past he has intervened more directly)

Regarding addressing injustices and helping the oppressed: I don't believe he intervenes directly but that he may intervene in the lives of people to inspire them.

I believe that one can have a personal relationship with God and that an outcome of having such a relationship is an enlarged social conscience and a great concern for one's fellow humans

Basically, I believe I an interventionist God who works upon the world through human agency.

An example of this would be him sending Jesus. In Luke 4:18 Jesus quotes Isiah (making that text apply to himself) and says:

The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free

I'd say that the person of Jesus Christ is an uncommon and extraordinary instance of God directly intervening in human affairs

I believe that he inspires people to make Luke 4:18 happen - to improve the condition of the poor and liberate the oppressed

Indeed I believe that Luke 4:18 is a duty for all Christians


I'd say that Religion does more than just that, I see it as a way in which social conduct is regulated - that it is all about how we live together in a society as different individuals with a shared common interest

I believe Socialism is also how we can best live together in a society as different individuals with a shared common interest

Marxism-Leninism has been responsible for an awful amount of death, suffering and atrocity. Christianity has its own share of problems to deal with like many religions: the Salem witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, the crusades and various holy wars, the violence of the protestant reformation, christianity’s long history of anti-semitism and its deference to slavery.

As an atheist, yes, this is all appalling. But I can say this is the fault of imperfect human beings and there many vices, rather than of a God. It doesn’t make me happy but of the two, I find putting the blame on man the more plausible and reassuring of the two (because at least Stalin died and people could try to recover- God doesn’t die and could well do it all over again without humanity having a veto or say in it).

Assume for a moment that in 1917, the Russian Empire collapsed and a Christian Socialist state had been built in its place rather than Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Why would Christian Socialism, when Christianity has been used by the powerful to justify violence and oppression for nearly two thousand years (arguably as much as Marxism), be any better at building a Communist Utopia in the twentieth century than Marxism-Leninism?

In practical terms, what would have changed and why would it have been better?
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Hello, @Laika :)

Why would Christian Socialism, when Christianity has been used by the powerful to justify violence and oppression for nearly two thousand years (arguably as much as Marxism), be any better at building a Communist Utopia in the twentieth century than Marxism-Leninism?
So your question is: Why would Christian Socialism be any better at building a Communist Utopia than Marxism-Leninism?

When I look at the concept of a Utopia - an ideal of a perfect society - I see a place in which people are free to self-actualise in fellowship with other humans. With none of the alienation or exploitation that comes with living in a Capitalist society. I think this is true of the Marxist Utopia as well as the Heaven of Christianity.

But in answer to your question: the Christian Socialist does not need to build a Utopia in this life, the Christian Socialist's utopia is already established as another dimension of reality, waiting to be populated

I think it is ironic that the Utopia which the likes of Stalin wanted to bring into existence is necessarily a place of individualism where people can flourish as humans because I believe that for all intents and purposes, Marxism-Leninism is anti-human:

Methodologically, it sees humans as being mere manifestations of society, not as individuals

And it has no problem with outright murder in the name of its cause

With it, the end always justify the means

To quote Stalin: "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic"

Basically: The Christian Socialist does not need to kill or enslave in order to begin bringing about his or her Utopia as it already exists and is waiting for us to fill it

For the Christian Socialist, the challenge is to make this world (that we are in now) as good as place to live as possible as that is what God wants of us. This life is a test, and it can be passed by being a good person and by improving the world. Even though creating a Utopia in this world is outright impossible we can still improve it, by bringing about a condition of Socialism.

In practical terms, what would have changed and why would it have been better?
What would have been different in an alternative history in which Lenin was a Christian Socialist?

I think things would have been much better :D

For starters, I think that the Christian Socialist State that emerged from the 1917 revolution in this alternate timeline would never have become totalitarian - and would never have had a man as its Godhead, as they would have had Jesus Christ as their Lord, not some hero Big Brother figure such as Lenin, Stalin, or Trotsky. There would be no personality cults around its leaders.

I believe it would be based on the social gospel rather than the charismatic authority of some man and blind faith in Marxist dogma, which we now know is mistaken in its predictions for the future and therefore not infalliable

I imagine that the flag of this Christian Socialist State would have been a red flag with a yellow crucifix in the top left corner, to reflect Christian values and relating these to class struggle (signified by red)

I don't believe that the Cheka and later then NKVD would have been so rampant and oppressive, or even necessary - I believe that the Capitalists et. al. could have been kicked out of power without gulags and firing squads and that dissent would have been seen as less of a problem. Perhaps the Capitalists could have been prosecuted and dealt with using the criminal justice system? - e.g. by making the exploitation of a worker a crime? - according to the rule of law!

I also believe that things would have been more democratic - that the Mensheviks and the Social Revolutionaries could have been involved in government too, as well as other factions

What about the relationship between such a Christian Socialist state and the Christian Church?

I think that the state would be Socialist but not Christian and that the Church would have never at all have been oppressed and would have been independent of the state but that social pressures would mean that it would have had to have acquired a liberal, progressive theology akin to the Liberation Theology of South America.

However, I think the Christian Socialist regime should have meddled a little in the affairs of the church, e.g. by ensuring progressive clergymen rose to senior positions.

Also, I don't see why the church in such a scenario would need to be established, indeed I think there should have been a formal separation:

In this alternative scenario I see the State as being more important than the Church.

And I believe that there would have been religious liberty - e.g. the Jews

I believe that the Christian USSR would have been far more popular oversees and that revolutionary Christian Socialism would have spread to the Capitalist nations and toppled various bourgeois regimes

Basically, I beleive that a Christian USSR would have worked and not ultimately failed as the historical USSR did

Because at its heart it wouldn't have been anti-individual, and anti-human like this historical USSR was
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I imagine that the flag of this Christian Socialist State would have been a red flag with a yellow crucifix in the top left corner, to reflect Christian values and relating these to class struggle (signified by red)

There you go. You're welcome to search "Christian Socialism flag" on google for more. :D

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I think that the state would be Socialist but not Christian and that the Church would have never at all have been oppressed and would have been independent of the state but that social pressures would mean that it would have had to have acquired a liberal, progressive theology akin to the Liberation Theology of South America.

Interesting, there was an attempt to reform Russian Orthodox Christianity during the Russian Revolution known as "Renovationism" that lasted from 1922 to 1946. That might be of interest.

But in answer to your question: the Christian Socialist does not need to build a Utopia in this life, the Christian Socialist's utopia is already established as another dimension of reality, waiting to be populated.

I don't think you'll be too surprised to know I sharply disagree with this. As a materialist, I don't believe that the afterlife is possible and so the goal of socialism is to improve this life and the world of the living. I think that's just an inevitable difference on religious lines though. :)

Basically: The Christian Socialist does not need to kill or enslave in order to begin bringing about his or her Utopia as it already exists and is waiting for us to fill it.

It took me a while, but I remembered about the Taiping Rebellion and the formation of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom as an attempted Christian Socialist Revolution in China in the nineteenth century. It was the "bloodiest civil war in world history" resulting in tens of million deaths. So I wouldn't be so sure about that. ;)

 
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Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Very interesting :)

So, to return to the original question...

Why can't one be a true socialist and also religious?

Please, present your argument :D
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Very interesting :)

So, to return to the original question...

Why can't one be a true socialist and also religious?

Please, present your argument :D

Ok. This is far more blunt and blasphemous than I would normally put it, but here we go. Hopefully it's not too offensive and my apologies if it is.:)

If God exists, God is almost certainly evil. God has absolute power and is the mastermind of all cruelty, evil and suffering in the world. By action or inaction, God is on the side of the tyrants. If we are to follow the principle of Christian love in loving one another, we must work together to unite against this God and against the tyrants, monarchs and churches who empower and enrich themselves in his name.

God has no right to rule this world and has no place in human affairs. We have the free will to chose whether to obey or to accept God's rule. We can refuse to consent to god's government. A Parent who brings a child in to the world and then abuses them is unfit to be a parent. a God who creates a universe, then proceeds to abuse it and "test the faith" of his creation in unfit to be a deity and should not be worshipped or submitted to.

The Christian God is a false God who lied to mankind by insisting on his "righteousness" of his reign of terror and his word is never to be trusted. Christianity has been the rationalisation of divine punishment and protestations of God's "love" for mankind conceal an abusive relationship that must be brought to an end. We have to stop blaming ourselves for the "sins" of mankind that keep us in subjugation and recognise the "sins" of the Christian God.

We are not born evil or born in sin. Most Christians are good people who mean well, but they have been lied to and manipulated in to worshipping a tyrant. It is our job as Socialists to teach the people to expose God as that tyrant and to oppose him. In other words, Christians must be "saved" from Jesus and from the Christian God whose lies keep them prisoner by accepting injustice as "god's will".

If we are to have a just world, we must hold the person responsible who created or tolerated evil. If we are going to have a revolution we should start with God. We must wage war against the false god and the false church and humanity should be in it to win and become the true masters of creation.

As an Atheist, all I have to do is shift the emphasis from God to the Church and it will still basically hold true. We must eat from the tree of knowledge and see beyond the superstition and ignorance that keeps us in chains. Bite that apple, comrade! It's delicious! Yummy! :D
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Ok. This is far more blunt and blasphemous than I would normally put it, but here we go. Hopefully it's not too offensive and my apologies if it is.:)

If God exists, God is almost certainly evil. God has absolute power and is the mastermind of all cruelty, evil and suffering in the world. By action or inaction, God is on the side of the tyrants. If we are to follow the principle of Christian love in loving one another, we must work together to unite against this God and against the tyrants, monarchs and churches who empower and enrich themselves in his name.

God has no right to rule this world and has no place in human affairs. We have the free will to chose whether to obey or to accept God's rule. We can refuse to consent to god's government. A Parent who brings a child in to the world and then abuses them is unfit to be a parent. a God who creates a universe, then proceeds to abuse it and "test the faith" of his creation in unfit to be a deity and should not be worshipped or submitted to.

The Christian God is a false God who lied to mankind by insisting on his "righteousness" of his reign of terror and his word is never to be trusted. Christianity has been the rationalisation of divine punishment and protestations of God's "love" for mankind conceal an abusive relationship that must be brought to an end. We have to stop blaming ourselves for the "sins" of mankind that keep us in subjugation and recognise the "sins" of the Christian God.

We are not born evil or born in sin. Most Christians are good people who mean well, but they have been lied to and manipulated in to worshipping a tyrant. It is our job as Socialists to teach the people to expose God as that tyrant and to oppose him. In other words, Christians must be "saved" from Jesus and from the Christian God whose lies keep them prisoner by accepting injustice as "god's will".

If we are to have a just world, we must hold the person responsible who created or tolerated evil. If we are going to have a revolution we should start with God. We must wage war against the false god and the false church and humanity should be in it to win and become the true masters of creation.

As an Atheist, all I have to do is shift the emphasis from God to the Church and it will still basically hold true. We must eat from the tree of knowledge and see beyond the superstition and ignorance that keeps us in chains. Bite that apple, comrade! It's delicious! Yummy! :D
Answering this will require a good deal of work

But I will give you an answer eventually :)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Answering this will require a good deal of work

But I will give you an answer eventually :)

Don't worry. It's not an angle I would generally have used because it hasn't come up very often. So I am kind of screwed whatever your reply is and am going to have to be very creative. :D

But it seemed the most direct way of approaching the relationship between Religion and Socialism and why it might be problematic. :)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Answering this will require a good deal of work

But I will give you an answer eventually :)

I have a habit of saying things online that I probably shouldn't and I'm not sure if I went too far with this one. It's probably ok, but there is that little voice of doubt nagging me making me wonder. :(

I have very often been on the wrong end of abuse where people have said "Communism is evil". I know it's not fun being on the wrong end of it and I wouldn't normally do that. But writing that out has made me think about how much of my opposition to religion is really driven by emotion and ignorance rather than a rational argument.

More than likely there is an unconscious emotional problem rationalised in this point of view that I haven't identified yet and will have to work out. Perhaps I'm just wrong and haven't realised it yet. :confused:
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Here we go, @Laika

I think I have answered your points but please feel free to rip what I have said to shreds :D

If God exists, God is almost certainly evil. God has absolute power and is the mastermind of all cruelty, evil and suffering in the world. By action or inaction, God is on the side of the tyrants. If we are to follow the principle of Christian love in loving one another, we must work together to unite against this God and against the tyrants, monarchs and churches who empower and enrich themselves in his name.
Yes, God has absolute powers but he choses to limit these

Cruelty, evil and suffering are all the consequence of human nature and human decisions

He set up this world to be governed by natural laws, as opposed to his supernatural whims. I believe this is a very important commitment.

I think God has a commandment that he applies to his self: Limit Intervention!

That doesn't mean "never intervene" but neither does it mean "I will do for humans what humans can do for themselves"

Regarding tyrants: tyrants come and go. Their rise and fall can be explained naturally. It is up to humans to not allow them to rise in the first place, and to dispose of them if they do rise. They are a fact of humanity!

And for what it's worth, I believe that God works through those he considers to be good, by privately inspiring them to do the right thing. And that the life and ministry of Jesus is a part of this.

I think that a lot of good things that humans do should not be attributed to God

And that a lot of bad things that humans do should not be attributed to him either

God has no right to rule this world and has no place in human affairs. We have the free will to chose whether to obey or to accept God's rule. We can refuse to consent to god's government. A Parent who brings a child in to the world and then abuses them is unfit to be a parent.
Exactly - hence his self-commandment: Limit Intervention

a God who creates a universe, then proceeds to abuse it and "test the faith" of his creation in unfit to be a deity and should not be worshipped or submitted to.
I'm sorry but I'm going to call "straw man" on this one :D

The Christian God is a false God who lied to mankind by insisting on his "righteousness" of his reign of terror and his word is never to be trusted. Christianity has been the rationalisation of divine punishment and protestations of God's "love" for mankind conceal an abusive relationship that must be brought to an end. We have to stop blaming ourselves for the "sins" of mankind that keep us in subjugation and recognise the "sins" of the Christian God.
God is only a force in this world because people chose to believe in him, and act how they think he wants them to act

Were we to ignore him his power would evaporate, although I don't think he ever exercises his power - (perhaps control would be a better word???)

I think God does love us but is bound by his self-commandment: Limit Intervention

We are not born evil or born in sin. Most Christians are good people who mean well, but they have been lied to and manipulated in to worshipping a tyrant. It is our job as Socialists to teach the people to expose God as that tyrant and to oppose him. In other words, Christians must be "saved" from Jesus and from the Christian God whose lies keep them prisoner by accepting injustice as "god's will".
I'm in no position to speak for God :D

But I don't see the religious tyrannies that exist on this Earth as being approved of by God

If I were to shoot a cat in your name could you be blamed for me shooting said cat???

If we are to have a just world, we must hold the person responsible who created or tolerated evil. If we are going to have a revolution we should start with God. We must wage war against the false god and the false church and humanity should be in it to win and become the true masters of creation.
I think that those who currently complain about God would complain about him even more were he not bound by the maxim: Limit Intervention

If we are to have a just world, we must hold the person responsible who created or tolerated evil. If we are going to have a revolution we should start with God. We must wage war against the false god and the false church and humanity should be in it to win and become the true masters of creation.
I think that the idea of God being in charge of his creation in such a way is an erroneous one

Especially given his guiding principle: Limit Intervention

I believe this applies to both not doing good acts that intervene and not doing bad acts either

By God having such a principle God gives us freedom - and not only freedom: Responsibility!

So... to conclude:

I reject your arguments as I believe you are mistaken about the nature of God

And of course, you likewise can reject my arguments if you believe that I am mistaken about God :D

But I believe that if we work within my understanding of God then it is possible to be religious and also a true Socialist.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, you haven't

This is a no-holds barred debate we're having :D


Yes, it is OK!

Thanks. I'm never quite sure as it seems easy to fall on the wrong side of controversy these days and religion is a sensitive and emotional area to be invested in whatever your beliefs are. I reply to your response and comments when I get a chance. :)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Eddi if I ever go too far, or there is an issue that's a bit too sensitive and you'd rather not discuss, just say and I will stop. I might be a godless unbeliever, full of vainglorious and blasphemous pride and having too much fun drowning in sin, but I don't set out to be a ****. My heart is in the right place. ;)

God is only a force in this world because people chose to believe in him, and act how they think he wants them to act. Were we to ignore him his power would evaporate, although I don't think he ever exercises his power - (perhaps control would be a better word???)

I think this is really the heart of the matter. Namely that the difference between religious socialism, that believes in God, and atheist socialism, which does not, is in practice so small. If God is not an active participant in society or in any of our social conflicts, it boils down to, whether someone believes and how they act based on those beliefs.

Yes, God has absolute powers but he chooses to limit these. Cruelty, evil and suffering are all the consequence of human nature and human decisions. He set up this world to be governed by natural laws, as opposed to his supernatural whims. I believe this is a very important commitment. I think God has a commandment that he applies to his self: Limit Intervention!

That doesn't mean "never intervene" but neither does it mean "I will do for humans what humans can do for themselves"

And for what it's worth, I believe that God works through those he considers to be good, by privately inspiring them to do the right thing. And that the life and ministry of Jesus is a part of this.

Ok, just so I'm clear on what you mean by God, you believe that God:

a) is the creator who created the universe and the natural laws within it;

b) performs miracles as interventions that suspend those natural laws; [it might be worth asking whether these miracles are being performed now in today's world, or whether the evidence of these miracles is only from the past, say in the bible.]

c) privately inspires people to do the right thing;

Have I got that right? Is there anything you would want to add?



Regarding tyrants: tyrants come and go. Their rise and fall can be explained naturally. It is up to humans to not allow them to rise in the first place, and to dispose of them if they do rise. They are a fact of humanity!

Ok. If that is the case, then Tyrants are- from God's perspective, something that can be explained naturally, the fault of humanity and purely temporary regardless of the suffering they cause.

1. Now, If God won't intervene to stop a religious tryanny that false claims to work in his name or in the name of some other God, is there any reason to believe he would treat an Atheist tyranny that denies his existence differently? Couldn't North Korea just get away with it if God won't stop them?

2. If God won't defend himself from slander, whether it be someone claiming to do atrocities in his name, or someone denying his existence, how do we know who speaks on his behalf? How do we distinguish between a true messenger spreading God's word and a false one claiming to speak for god for their own selfish motives?

3. If God isn't going to intervene and isn't going to tell the truth directly to humanity, isn't it possible that Atheists might win and completely eliminate Christianity if God won't defend it? And, if we can't tell the difference between a false christian and a true one, how we do know this hasn't already happened and that Christians today aren't already following a corrupted version of Christ's teaching?

....But I don't see the religious tyrannies that exist on this Earth as being approved of by God. If I were to shoot a cat in your name could you be blamed for me shooting said cat???

I sort of agree actually and it's a fair point. :D

But, through out human history when ever someone has wanted to run a dictatorship or start a war, they have claimed God was on their side and legitimised their rule. Whether you or I believe this is right, many people came to accept injustice because someone claimed to speak on God's behalf and said "God wills it". Too often this has appealed to those who were "just following orders" and did not believe they were individually responsible for their actions, but absolved themselves of responsibility by surrendering to authority and by submission to God. Whether or not God is on their side, this claim clearly works on alot of people in getting them to accept things they perhaps otherwise wouldn't. It's likely to work again, too, sadly.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Hello, @Laika here we go...

If God is not an active participant in society or in any of our social conflicts, it boils down to, whether someone believes and how they act based on those beliefs.
Yes, it is the beliefs people act on, rather than God's actual will

But those beliefs are informed by a certain ethos

And a certain concept of God - that may or may not be accurate

(I believe that to understand God one should read the New Testament)

Ok, just so I'm clear on what you mean by God, you believe that God:

a) is the creator who created the universe and the natural laws within it;
Yes

b) performs miracles as interventions that suspend those natural laws; [it might be worth asking whether these miracles are being performed now in today's world, or whether the evidence of these miracles is only from the past, say in the bible.]
Yes

I think some of the stories in the bible are inspired by true events and that even if they aren't they are still inspired by God's will

I think wants stories such as Noah's Ark or the parting of the Red Sea to enter our popular imagination

I believe God relates to us through stories, such as those that can be found throughout the bible

But a story doesn't have to be factual to be true :D

c) privately inspires people to do the right thing;
Yes, that is how I believe he intervenes

He works through people

Whether they know it or not

Have I got that right? Is there anything you would want to add?
I think that more or less covers it :)

1. Now, If God won't intervene to stop a religious tryanny that false claims to work in his name or in the name of some other God, is there any reason to believe he would treat an Atheist tyranny that denies his existence differently? Couldn't North Korea just get away with it if God won't stop them?
I don't think he distinguishes between Atheist and religious tyrannies

I think he dislikes all tyrannies as by definition a tyranny is anti-human and God is pro-human

2. If God won't defend himself from slander, whether it be someone claiming to do atrocities in his name, or someone denying his existence, how do we know who speaks on his behalf? How do we distinguish between a true messenger spreading God's word and a false one claiming to speak for god for their own selfish motives?
You can tell a true messenger by whether they speak of love and peace

A false messenger would speak of love and violence

But can there ever be just violence?

I would argue yes, in certain circumstances such as when resisting tyranny

I want to implement Socialism but I want to do so peacefully - I think that class war can be peaceful

3. If God isn't going to intervene and isn't going to tell the truth directly to humanity, isn't it possible that Atheists might win and completely eliminate Christianity if God won't defend it? And, if we can't tell the difference between a false christian and a true one, how we do know this hasn't already happened and that Christians today aren't already following a corrupted version of Christ's teaching?
I doubt that Christianity will ever be eliminated

And I don't think there are true and false Christians: Only good and bad Christians :D

If a person calls themselves a Christian - no matter how tenuously - then they must be treated as one

Even if they don't act as one

The thing is that not all Christians are good - either at being a Christian or at being a good person!

All groups of people are the same - mostly good normal people who only want to get on with their lives, and a few bad apples. I don't think it's what group a person belongs to that is important, I think that what is important is if they are good or bad

Personally speaking, I feel more warmth towards a good Moslem or Jew than I do towards a bad Christian, it is good and bad that matters to me, not religion (or lack of)

But, through out human history when ever someone has wanted to run a dictatorship or start a war, they have claimed God was on their side and legitimised their rule. Whether you or I believe this is right, many people came to accept injustice because someone claimed to speak on God's behalf and said "God wills it". Too often this has appealed to those who were "just following orders" and did not believe they were individually responsible for their actions, but absolved themselves of responsibility by surrendering to authority and by submission to God. Whether or not God is on their side, this claim clearly works on alot of people in getting them to accept things they perhaps otherwise wouldn't. It's likely to work again, too, sadly.
I think that most wars in which God has been the excuse the actual motivation has been economic - e.g. the military/industrial complex or oil - either that or tribalism and imperialism which are I believe both symptoms of Capitalism

And I think that at the end of the day God holds all wrong-doers to account, even those who were "just following orders"

I think that he punishes as well as rewards

But I don't believe in salvation by faith alone

I believe in what I call "salvation by audit" - people are saved according to whether or not God likes them and thinks they are a good person, based on a thorough audit of their conduct as a human

Hence I believe that many Atheists will be saved ;)

I suppose I'm something of a universalist

And I personally believe that the good news is that God is a genteel liberal - not some infantile, narcissistic tyrant

Earlier on in this debate I argued that Marxism is a religion

I would like to hear why you think that it is not a religion :D
 
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