Jesus is not God

[jimb]

I've never, ever heard a trinitarian be able to explain what they believe - the doctrine's explanation is invariably accompanied by the 'mystery' card.

Obviously you can't understand the Trinity! It is clear to those of us who understand the Bible in general, the Trinity in particular. So the problem is your inability to understand it.

Again, what intelligence percentile are you in? I am in the 99th.

 

[Sargonski]

What?
Read Isaiah 9:6



Already did it , not need to even look at this


The doctrine of the Trinity


Based on what?
Me giving references in Scripture and you just telling what you think?


Isaiah 9:6 , i don't have anything else to say.
You do your work


Sure , ad hominem is your best


So why does he say 'I and the Father are one' ?
What is your understanding ?



John 10:18 reads
'No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.'

John 8:54
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.


Sure
From the Father , through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

Do you want the reference or you can find it yourself?


More Scripture and less you being the teacher , so we can see the difference.


Read Psalm 22


Let me ask you a question?
Did Jesus do any wrong to somebody given the evidence?



Why did he quote the exact words of Psalm 22:1?



Give the references please


I don't care about interpretations
I don't care about NIV , SUV , KJV etc etc.

I don't need them , you need them.
I don't , i only need to read the original language - that's it.


Please give the references , don't just state your opinion.

The Gospels have little to do with literal understanding as i suppose you knew , but i was wrong , and i am sorry for not noticing that.

Matthew 13:34
'Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.'


You don't get it , do you?
The Father is just a person, a title.
God is more then a person or a title.Actually we don't know what is God if we are being honest here.
Even i as a Christian know that much.
In the person of the Father , in the person of the Son and in the person of the Holy Spirit.


Please give the evidence if you want to discuss


What?
Ignatius , Tertullian, Polycarp , St Irenaeus ?
What did Paul preach ?


Do you know what is heresy?

Good grief what a spaghetti at the wall web of deception ... engaging baby step mode ... .. if you can find an argument in the above post somewhere .. let me know.

You cry out "Scripture .. Scripture" .. give me Scripture --- but that was given you - and it is that scripture- the word of Jesus Lord and Savior from which you now run from / deflect / hide... were you not familiar with Jesus in the Garden .. begging The Father .. who's name you do not know, unenlightened in the secrets Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Thats Mark 14:36 --- after which you were given .. when Abba .. does not take the cup away .. forces Jesus to go through with the Human Sacrifice .. Sacrifice of the First Born .. ... or did Loki Pull a Switch at the End .. Jesus escape .. no body in the tomb .. where Jesus Go

Sorry ..I digress .. and forgot .. baby steps .. Mark 15 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Jesus is clearly upset that Abba did not Take the Cup from his hand .. calls out that his God has forsaken him ...

ignatius, polycarp Irenaeus ... all subordinantists .. so sorry to say that you do not understand of what you speak .. now please address the scripture from which you run .. no more spaghetti on the wall.

 

[Dimi95]

Good grief what a spaghetti at the wall web of deception ... engaging baby step mode ... .. if you can find an argument in the above post somewhere .. let me know.

Cut the drama and start discussing points , if not take care.

You cry out "Scripture .. Scripture" .. give me Scripture

Which you did not.

--- but that was given you - and it is that scripture- the word of Jesus Lord and Savior from which you now run from / deflect / hide...

Deflect , hide ? Where ?
Didn't you see the answer ?
Or spagheti is your best answer?

were you not familiar with Jesus in the Garden .. begging The Father ..
who's name you do not know, unenlightened in the secrets Abba, Father,”

You have learned 2 or 3 words in Hebrew , good - it is still a progress!

he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”[/B]

Thats Mark 14:36 --- after which you were given .. when Abba .. does not take the cup away .. forces Jesus to go through with the Human Sacrifice .. Sacrifice of the First Born .. ... or did Loki Pull a Switch at the End .. Jesus escape .. no body in the tomb .. where Jesus Go

Sorry ..I digress .. and forgot .. baby steps .. Mark 15 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Psalm 22
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,by night, but I find no rest.
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

" 'He trusts in the Lord,' they say,
let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat

They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!"

So why did he quote Psalm 22:1 ?

Jesus is clearly upset that Abba did not Take the Cup from his hand .. calls out that his God has forsaken him ...

Then why in John 19:30 he said 'It is finished' and bowed his head?
To what purpose?

ignatius, polycarp Irenaeus ... all subordinantists

To you - yes , which is very obvious.

.. so sorry to say that you do not understand of what you speak

Again ad hominem
Keep going , you are doing just fine

.. now please address the scripture from which you run .. no more spaghetti on the wall.

I adressed already with Psalm 22 and Jesus quoting that passage
Then i answered with John 19:30 which is moments before his death , and seems that it is not as you suggested.

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

In The Gospel of Mark he predicted his death 3 times.

The above is Mark 8:31

You need the other two or i don't need to bother?

 

[Sargonski]

Cut the drama and start discussing points , if not take care.


Which you did not.


Deflect , hide ? Where ?
Didn't you see the answer ?
Or spagheti is your best answer?

Another post of deceit and deflection from the Truth - saying I did not provide scripture when I even Bolded it for you.

Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

but from scripture you run and hide .. the word of Lord Jesus foreign to your ear. ..Obviously Jesus is referring to Abba, Father as someone other than himself. A Father who's name you do not know .. and who's word you do not follow, choosing iinstead to follow that wrought by the hands of men.

 

[DNB]

Obviously you can't understand the Trinity! It is clear to those of us who understand the Bible in general, the Trinity in particular. So the problem is your inability to understand it.

Again, what intelligence percentile are you in? I am in the 99th.

no, you're not

 

[InChrist]

I've never, ever heard a trinitarian be able to explain what they believe - the doctrine's explanation is invariably accompanied by the 'mystery' card.

Understanding the Triune Nature of God may be a mystery to the finite human mind, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. As the following article articulates, I think it’s the only coherent perspective that lines up with God’s revelation of Himself in the biblical scriptures…


“Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God, as the Bible itself does. There are two general concepts of God: (1) pantheism/naturalism, that the universe itself is God; and (2) supernaturalism, that the Creator is distinct from His creation. Within these are two more opposing views: (1) polytheism, that there are many gods; and (2) monotheism, that there is only one true God.

Monotheism itself is divided into two rival beliefs: (1) that God is a single being; and (2) that God has always existed in three Persons who are separate and distinct yet One. Obviously, Christians are the only ones who hold the latter view—and even some who call themselves Christians reject it. Yet it is the only logically and philosophically coherent view of God possible.”

———-
“That God must have both unity and diversity is clear. The Allah of Islam and the Jehovah of Jehovah's Witnesses and Jews, for instance, is incomplete in himself, unable to experience love, fellowship and communion before creating beings with whom he could have these experiences. The Bible says that "God islove." But the God of Islam and Judaism could not be love in and of himself—for whom could he love when he was alone before creation?”


———-
“In Romans:1:20
Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead? Yes, as Dr. Wood pointed out years ago in The Secret of the Universe, the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

 

[Sargonski]

Understanding the Triune Nature of God may be a mystery to the finite human mind, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

The Trinity being a mystery is not what makes it false... .. starting out with that false assumption won't lead to truth.

What makes the Trinity False .. is in the claim that Jesus is "The Father" .. and at the same time a God Co-Equal to the Father .. Separate from the Father.

Aside from being blistering self contradiction -- a contradiction disputed by no one with even basic logic skill .. not even the Church .. not theogians .. not religious scholars. .. who end up throwing up hands and writing the contradiction off as a mystery ....

KK .. so let us not claim "There is no contradiction" as that is for the uber loony extreme .. demonstrably false .. club.

But - there is further falsehood -- as the Bible does not describe Jesus this way .. Jesus and the character in the story known as "The Father" -- Hallowed be thy Name - are not the same individual. Jesus is not "The Father" masquirading down on earth Jesus .. That is not what the Story says. In the first and original Bible story .. Jesus is depicted as a man of 30 .. adopted by A God. this man then undergo's a ritual trial .. because he is a man .. and not a God .. a God does not have to go through a ritual trial .. to activate the divine spark K ? KK ? U understand why God does not have to go through ritual Trial .. but worry not if you don't .. because the 1rst Century Reader knew the story .. one very familiar .. the traditional ritual Trial .. 40 days in the desert .. tested by the Chief God on Earth .. and Tester of Souls ... who knows who it is that he is testing .. who knows the soul in front of him .. having been sent by the one who adopted Jesus to do his job and Test Jesus .. the Tester of Souls being a Son of the God who has adopted Jesus .. the Son of Man.

OK ? any further questions ? Jesus .. is not "The Father" of Ha Satan .. who is testing him. U Understand ? ... and even if you don't .. the first century reader does .. because that is how he sees what is going on .. A God .. adopts Jesus .. who is a man of age 30 .. who then goes through ritual testing by the Son of this God .. "Tester of Souls" .

Jesus passes the test with flying colors .. goes on to be a great prophet and wonder worker .. That is the story - Jesus is not "The Father" .. Jesus is not the God who adopts him.. not according to the original version of the Story in Mark to a first century reader. The Trinity claim that Jesus is depicted as "The Father" .. is alternate identity is simple falsehood .. man made dogma made by the hands of man under the influence of the dark one.

Are you having trouble coming to the understanding that there is more than one God in the Bible ? heh .. heh .. heh .. and you know what .. there is more than one God in the Trinity as well .. As per Trinity Doctrine .. such a messed up funny thing. .. but making it no less a man made falsehood .. straight out of the dark side.

Do you deny the existence of the Divine Lord Satan ? Such a thing don't exist no-where -- no how ... ? Right .. ... the tester of Souls...with amazing God powers .... Chief God on earth .. greatest of deceivers .... is going to show up sporting Horns, Red Cape and a Tail .. thinking you won't recognize him. Right .. thats it.

Is there some deception going on or not ? .. Yes ..You .. answer the question .. do you believe in the power of the decepticon .. or do you deny the Bible .

 

[jimb]

no, you're not

Do a little research on Intertel: www.intertel-iq.org

I was a member until recently; you must be in the 99th percentile to join. So I have proof!

You still haven't answered what percentile you're in. Why haven't you answered? Chicken?

 

[DNB]

Understanding the Triune Nature of God may be a mystery to the finite human mind, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. As the following article articulates, I think it’s the only coherent perspective that lines up with God’s revelation of Himself in the biblical scriptures…


“Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God, as the Bible itself does. There are two general concepts of God: (1) pantheism/naturalism, that the universe itself is God; and (2) supernaturalism, that the Creator is distinct from His creation. Within these are two more opposing views: (1) polytheism, that there are many gods; and (2) monotheism, that there is only one true God.

Monotheism itself is divided into two rival beliefs: (1) that God is a single being; and (2) that God has always existed in three Persons who are separate and distinct yet One. Obviously, Christians are the only ones who hold the latter view—and even some who call themselves Christians reject it. Yet it is the only logically and philosophically coherent view of God possible.”

———-
“That God must have both unity and diversity is clear. The Allah of Islam and the Jehovah of Jehovah's Witnesses and Jews, for instance, is incomplete in himself, unable to experience love, fellowship and communion before creating beings with whom he could have these experiences. The Bible says that "God islove." But the God of Islam and Judaism could not be love in and of himself—for whom could he love when he was alone before creation?”


———-
“In Romans:1:20
Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead? Yes, as Dr. Wood pointed out years ago in The Secret of the Universe, the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.

Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

What does one omniscient being say to another omniscient being: I love you? What does the other one say - I know, I'm omniscient


The aseity of God necessitates his self sufficiency - He doesn't need an identical twin, let a lone two identical entities at His side. He's all powerful and lacks nothing. It's the quintessence of redundancy to have three omnipotent Beings in one anything.

None of your analogies work - it's not worth explaining, especially if you're entirely unaware of your deficient comparisons

 

[InChrist]

The Trinity being a mystery is not what makes it false... .. starting out with that false assumption won't lead to truth.

What makes the Trinity False .. is in the claim that Jesus is "The Father" .. and at the same time a God Co-Equal to the Father .. Separate from the Father.

Aside from being blistering self contradiction -- a contradiction disputed by no one with even basic logic skill .. not even the Church .. not theogians .. not religious scholars. .. who end up throwing up hands and writing the contradiction off as a mystery ....

KK .. so let us not claim "There is no contradiction" as that is for the uber loony extreme .. demonstrably false .. club.

But - there is further falsehood -- as the Bible does not describe Jesus this way .. Jesus and the character in the story known as "The Father" -- Hallowed be thy Name - are not the same individual. Jesus is not "The Father" masquirading down on earth Jesus .. That is not what the Story says. In the first and original Bible story .. Jesus is depicted as a man of 30 .. adopted by A God. this man then undergo's a ritual trial .. because he is a man .. and not a God .. a God does not have to go through a ritual trial .. to activate the divine spark K ? KK ? U understand why God does not have to go through ritual Trial .. but worry not if you don't .. because the 1rst Century Reader knew the story .. one very familiar .. the traditional ritual Trial .. 40 days in the desert .. tested by the Chief God on Earth .. and Tester of Souls ... who knows who it is that he is testing .. who knows the soul in front of him .. having been sent by the one who adopted Jesus to do his job and Test Jesus .. the Tester of Souls being a Son of the God who has adopted Jesus .. the Son of Man.

OK ? any further questions ? Jesus .. is not "The Father" of Ha Satan .. who is testing him. U Understand ? ... and even if you don't .. the first century reader does .. because that is how he sees what is going on .. A God .. adopts Jesus .. who is a man of age 30 .. who then goes through ritual testing by the Son of this God .. "Tester of Souls" .

Jesus passes the test with flying colors .. goes on to be a great prophet and wonder worker .. That is the story - Jesus is not "The Father" .. Jesus is not the God who adopts him.. not according to the original version of the Story in Mark to a first century reader. The Trinity claim that Jesus is depicted as "The Father" .. is alternate identity is simple falsehood .. man made dogma made by the hands of man under the influence of the dark one.

Are you having trouble coming to the understanding that there is more than one God in the Bible ? heh .. heh .. heh .. and you know what .. there is more than one God in the Trinity as well .. As per Trinity Doctrine .. such a messed up funny thing. .. but making it no less a man made falsehood .. straight out of the dark side.

Do you deny the existence of the Divine Lord Satan ? Such a thing don't exist no-where -- no how ... ? Right .. ... the tester of Souls...with amazing God powers .... Chief God on earth .. greatest of deceivers .... is going to show up sporting Horns, Red Cape and a Tail .. thinking you won't recognize him. Right .. thats it.

Is there some deception going on or not ? .. Yes ..You .. answer the question .. do you believe in the power of the decepticon .. or do you deny the Bible .

You post seems to be going off in a lot of weird directions. I will just address one point you mentioned more than once.

The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT say Jesus is the Father.

 

[DNB]

Do a little research on Intertel: www.intertel-iq.org

I was a member until recently; you must be in the 99th percentile to join. So I have proof!

You still haven't answered what percentile you're in. Why haven't you answered? Chicken?

you're exasperating.
why in the world are you asking, ....let alone how am i supposed to know?

 

[Soapy]

You post seems to be going off in a lot of weird directions. I will just address one point you mentioned more than once.

The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT say Jesus is the Father.

The doctrine of trinity does not say that Jesus is the Father… true. But trinity LOGIC says so since Trinitarians are always quoting Jesus saying ‘I and the Father are one’ as proof that Jesus is God.

But GOD IS THE FATHER: THE FATHER IS GOD…

Therefore if JESUS IS GOD then JESUS IS THE FATHER…

That’s how TRINITY and Trinitarians LOGICALLY call Jesus, the Father. There’s no way out of what Trinitarians are saying. So the problem is in the definition of WHO is GOD!!

Come on, please.. answer me where no trinitarian has answered so far:!

• Jesus is SPIRIT GOD, it’s claimed
• And Jesus is the Son of Spirit God, ok?
• And Jesus is Man, it’s true
• But the Father is Only Spirit God ….!

IS Jesus GREATER THAN the Father because Jesus is THREE: GOD, MAN*, AND THE SON OF GOD
or….
IS Jesus LESS THAN the Father BECAUSE Jesus is THREE: GOD, MAN*, AND THE SON OF GOD

(*Man (Flesh) IS A WEAKNESS)

 

[jimb]

you're exasperating.
why in the world are you asking, ....let alone how am i supposed to know?

I am asking because you have falsely claimed (post #145) that I am not in the 99th percentile and I have given proof that I am. I didn't initiate that subject, you did.

If you want to find out, take an IQ test or the Mensa admission test.

 

[Sargonski]

You post seems to be going off in a lot of weird directions. I will just address one point you mentioned more than once.

The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT say Jesus is the Father.

Yes .. it does . These people who don't have the faintest idea what the dogma they believe in is and then they go and attribute this dogma to Jesus.

Sorry that you feel the path of truth in Jesus christ is a "Wierd Direction" - which triggered a thought stopping tactic.

and now for the learning part of the program .. If A = B and B=C, then A = C

A = "The Father" B = God C = Jesus So if The Father is God .. and Jesus is God ,, then the Father is Jesus .. Law of Transitivity.

You can claim that Jesus is not "The Father" all you like .. but this violates the rules of logic ... which uncovers the Trinity Contradiction .. on which all agree .. from Popes to Theological Scholarship to Atheists to acdemic scholarship.

Which means your so wrong .. and your claim is a ridiculously false made up absurdity.

Yes .. the Trinity doctrine states that Jesus is not the Father .. but it also states that Jesus is the Father .. and thus .. the claim that the trinity does not state that Jesus is the Father .. is 100 % False .. even though the doctrine contradicts itself .. claiming Jesus is not the Father -- resulting in the following image which you must have seen before .. but unfortunately did not understands what you were looking at.

and what happens .. is why one tries to untangle this mess and distinguish between the Son and the Father .. you end up creating two Gods .. not one. There is no 3 persons in one God mate .. if these 3 are the same person. As soon as you try to say .. no no no ... They are different people .. as you have done ... and someone says "HOW" are they different .. and you respond ... different people .. diffrent mind .. different will .. not unique .. one distinguishable from the other .. thus the will of the Son is not always the Will of the Father .. nor that of the spirit .. each is a separate mind .. able to act independently and act independently towards humans .. each having the full power of God .. (a quantity about which you have no idea .. your concept of "all powerfull" a made up silliness to think this construct represents reality in any way related to the Bible .. completely non Biblical man made up nonsense.) you now have 3 Gods .. not one.

Thanks for confirming that the Trinity Doctrine is Polytheism though .. and in this respect I supposed would somewhat fit into the Bible story .. .. the monotheism trope a complete mish mash .. not fitting in at all to the story .. and an inane contradiction of man made deception ..

You then want to take this man made deception and put it into the Mouth of Jesus .. a blasphemy of the holy spirit.. which you should not do .. IMO .. being one of the sins we are told is "unforgivable" and all. Let us not go down the path of unforgivable sin because you think the path of Truth is a Wierd Path.. - better to just not walk down any path .. the atheist is in a far better position.

In the Bible Story .. Jesus is not God .. Jesus is not "Theos" .. Jesus is not the Theos that adopts him at his baptism .. as Trinity Doctrine states. Jesus is not "The One True God" he refers to as "The Father"

Do you understand ? Jesus is not the one True God.. by your own admission. Jesus is not "Co-equal" to the one True God .. as the man made dogma of the trinity falsely states.

 

[DNB]

I am asking because you have falsely claimed (post #145) that I am not in the 99th percentile and I have given proof that I am. I didn't initiate that subject, you did.

If you want to find out, take an IQ test or the Mensa admission test.

YOU INITIATED THE SUBJECT, for crying out loud. I have never even heard of such an assessment.
Whether your mensa or not, wisdom is an entirely different discipline and awareness. You as a tritheist, could not qualify for spiritual aptitude.

 

[jimb]

YOU INITIATED THE SUBJECT, for crying out loud. I have never even heard of such an assessment.
Whether your mensa or not, wisdom is an entirely different discipline and awareness. You as a tritheist, could not qualify for spiritual aptitude.

Read post #125. Mensa (capitalized) requires a person to be in the top 2% of general intelligence; Intertel requires a person to be in the top 1%. I have been a member of both.

I know what wisdom is. And because I know that the divine Trinity is real, I qualify in that area also.

I don't consider you capable of judging me, since your assessments of me are obviously wrong.

 

[Muffled]

So God is a tripartite being but Jesus ( who is fully God) is not?

I believe God is not part of a tripartite being. God is one.

 

[Muffled]

Sure -- 1700 years and they still can't figure out how to fit the Trinity Contradicion into the Biblical Text coherently

Indeed the Holy Text depicts Jesus as subordinate to the Father. .of this there is no doubt .. and something that can be understood immediately .. clearly stated on the first page of the NT. The First Page. Page #1 .. of the Story of Jesus on which the 1st century reader or hearer understands immediately that Iesous is not Theos ..

-- in going back and reading I find that OH .. Don't even need to get through the first page.. The first sentence. Sentence 1 .. on Page 1.

"The beginning of the good news about Iesous the Messiah (annointed one of God), the Son of Theos"

The first century hearer/reader knows exactly who the annointed one of God is .. David and Cyrus the two Previous Messiah's. .. Two previous Saviors of the the Israelites .. and then Judahites

Every Jew in the first century is familiar with the "Annointed one of God" .. and most every person in general is familiar with the story.. not the story in Mark but the stories of the other annointed one's of God .. .. these Messianic figures were common among the Jewish people in the first century .. as Messianic Fevor was in the air - the Jewish struggle for autonomy from the Romans and Statehood was all the rage.

The one annointed by God is a Human in the previous instances .. David - Cyrus .. which is all the reader/hearer of the Story knows at this point. .. obviously this Iesous is a man like the others .. but in NO WAY shape or form do they think Jesus fellow is the God that is doing the annointing .. and in fact do not have any reason to think this Jesus is divine at this point in the Story.

The first hint of divinity comes from John the Baptist "8 I baptize you with[e] water, but he will baptize you with[f] the Holy Spirit.”

Oh .. OK .. Cool --- more information .. this Jesus fellow will baptize people with "Holy Spirit" Wow .. what does this Mean to the 1st century reader/hearer ? A new character has been introduced to the Story the Holy Spirit ... who/what is this Spirit ?

Well -- of course you probably don't know -- but fortunately the first century Jew knows exactly what "The Spirit of the Lord" is having met this entity a number of times in the OT --- the Prophets of Old spoke God's word through this entity and or received messages from God through this entity. The Spirit of the Lord is a communication conduit between man and God .. between man and God's Word.

OK .. but .. this passage reads a little strange now what is a baptism "with" this Spirit of the Lord ... is this Spirit going to show up every time Jesus does a baptism ? when we click on the footnote we find the word "in" .. hmmm baptize you in the Spirit of the Lord ..

Hmmm the reader gets the impression that Jesus has some control over this divine force - this divine force is the word of God of which the people will be baptized. A strange but interesting analogy and play on words .. but in any case .. we get that Jesus will have at least a little divine power .. or rather .. the first century reader gets that.

THEN -- two lines further we get a whole lot more information ---
10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted[g] by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.


Totally Cool -- at the Baptism of Jesus --- the Spirit of the Lord steps down from the clouds and delivers God's message - a message that every single first century reader/hearer will be familiar 100 times over in many different ways .. one of the first and oldest stories of great heros adopted by a God --- Sargon of Akkad is a tale everyone knows -- how was put in a basket into a river .. fished out by a gardener .. later Adopted by Patron God -- Goes on to unite the city states of Mesopotamia into the worlds first Empire ~ 2350 BC.

"You are my son" says the voice ---- the God adopts this Man of 30 -- perhaps has recieved some kind of divine spark .. a sliver of the All spark perhaps ?? this is not clear at all but something that might be speculated by the reader -- some kind of divine ability or will be recieving divine help. .

Now .. What happens next makes it crystal clear to the 1st century reader that Jesus is a man . who will go through some kind of Ritual Testing.
Jesus is show as subordinate to the Spirit at this point .. never mind being subordinate to God. Then .. like the ritual the Pharaoh's of Egypt had to go through prior to being considered divine .. Jesus must go through the testing - showing obviously he is not the God speaking to im through the Clouds .. or the "Spirit of the Lord" .. Telling the Reader at this point "Oh BTW -- Jesus is actually God" would be a ridiculous absurdity .. and major Heresy on steroids to the Jewish reader.

THEN however, we get some further evidence of divinity of Jesus... as he interacts with other divinities .. Angels attending to Jesus during his Trial and direct interaction with another God .. one different than the God who adopted Jesus .. but one sent by the Theos God to test Jesus.

This other God is "Ha Satan" -- the Son of God we meet in Job whose Job Title is "Tester of Souls" --- and who has apparently risen to Chief God on Earth - having the whole world in the palm of his hand such that he can deliever it to Jesus if he will worship him.

KK -- This is a God asking a human for worship -- .. not a God asking the Most High God .. his Father .. to worship him. That is not what is happening in the story .. another ridiculous absurdity that is simply not even considered by a first century reader.

Jesus passes the test and goes on to be a great Prophet and Wonder worker who ends up a human sacrifice .. forsaken by this God for reason's unknown .. Thus at the end of the life of Jesus .. his divinity has not risen to the stature of the God .. and certainly not the Most High God.. again a ridiculous absurdity to suggest that it is the Supreme God hanging on the cross .. calling out to himself in some self induced masochistic delerium .. forgetting who he is. .. Once again .. this idea a ridiculous absurdity that the Reader does not consider for a second.

Jesus is a human sacrifice -- a sin offereing like the Scape Goat -- first born "son of Man" .. but unlike Isaac .. God does not rush in at the last moment and provide a substitute as Jesus expects .. "Take this Cup from my hand .. let it be your will not mine" so again we clearly dealing with two separate individuals .. separate Wills which are not the same ... not one in spirit on this point of order and one clearly subordinate to the other.

So Jesus does not want to go through with the sacrifice .. Pleads with his God not to make him do it .. but goes to the cross .. against his will .. thinking that surely God will step in and rescue him somehow .. or provide a substitute. Unfortunately for Jesus .. this is not what happens .. and Jesus is not happy about it ... near cursing this God with his last breath .. bewildered and feeling betrayed .. his last breath "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"

and thats it .. This Human with a divine spark dies .. like a human .. his body taken to a cave .. then the body disappears .... the reader left to wonder what happend to it ..and here the original version of the story ends .. The reader left to speculate on what happened to the desecrated body of this betrayed prophet of God.

I believe my explanation is quite coherent.

 

[Muffled]

I don't know if it matters to you or not, but what you've been saying about the Trinity contradicts the teachings of all the Trinitarian churches.

I believe all of the churches have errors. Teachings quite often are the words of men as opposed to the Word of God.

 

[jimb]

I believe God is not part of a tripartite being. God is one.

God is one tripartite being. Tripartite means one entity composed of three parts.